In a relationship with a future Baha'i member - Page 3

cire perdue · 06-12-2011, 08:46 AM

I am so sorry. I was overstating the things you could possibly think about all these posts. I put jokes after it. I apologize. I was making light of my fears about how you would see us. I should not have done that, I guess I did not know better.

cire perdue · 06-12-2011, 08:50 AM

There is a crux of the matter. Baha'is believe the purpose of man is to know and love God, and only that will bring happiness. I have lived both sides of life, the material and the spiritual and prefer to strive to be on the spritual side. It is not about denial of needs. I would prefer to be married. I will not live long enough to grow up enough to be able to marry again.

Alexis · 06-12-2011, 08:51 AM

Baha'is are willing and are dying and serving prison terms for this Faith. We believe what we have. Don't you think there are higher purposes in life? Wouldn't you give your life up for your child? If I sound crazed, I'm not surprised because "I have seen the elephant". I know first hand what emphasizing sex creates. It is NOT that important. We really want love, real love. Rant, rant, rant....[/QUOTE]

The purpose in my life is that I only have one and the God that I know wants me to be happy and live a life with a man whom I love and loves me in return. Whether we are married or not! I don't believe in the Bible because it was written by man and so there is no law that says you have to be married to have true love. Two people can truly love each other without going through a ceremony and signing a legal document.

I highlighted your quote about dying and serving for the faith. My boyfriend can read that it's your quote. Actually, I hope he reads this entire thread!!

cire perdue · 06-12-2011, 08:56 AM

I want to go out and have sex and have a good time. I have come to firmly believe it will not, NOT make me happy. I came to that belief kicking and screaming with claw marks on everything that I thought would make me happy. I now prefer to go along with what I think God has told me will make me happy. Oh, I am not happy especially, HOWEVER I AM NOT MISERABLE AS I WOULD BE GOING BY MY DEFINITION OF HAPPINESS.
I am going to change my sign in to "learnedthehardway".

I hate the word happy. Serenity, peaceful, accepting are much better words. English needs more words.

edit: I am tired. I'm off for a bit.

Alexis · 06-12-2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

There is a crux of the matter. Baha'is believe the purpose of man is to know and love God, and only that will bring happiness. I have lived both sides of life, the material and the spiritual and prefer to strive to be on the spritual side. It is not about denial of needs. I would prefer to be married. I will not live long enough to grow up enough to be able to marry again.

My boyfriend is happy without being dedicated to God. He is not a religious person. Like I've said before, he doesn't believe in organized religion and by what I have been experiencing on this website and what I have been reading on other websites, this is as organized as any other, including mine, which I have not been a part of for many years, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a relationship with God. You can have a relationship with God and not have to belong to any church, religion or faith...what ever title you want to give it.

In my experience, religion or faith is something for weak people to lean on, when nothing else is going right in their life. Please don't take this as an insult, it is just what I have experienced friends and loved ones go through. I am not saying that this is a bad thing, it's just so.

My parents have a new person working for them to help take care of my disabled father. After her first few day here, she said that she didn't know if she could endure the work and so she called her pastor who told her she could and that she could do all things through God. It saddens me that she couldn't just say to herself, "I have to work and I will make it through this job." She said that she wouldn't have returned to work if she wouldn't have talked with her pastor.

Alexis · 06-12-2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

I want to go out and have sex and have a good time. I have come to firmly believe it will not, NOT make me happy. I came to that belief kicking and screaming with claw marks on everything that I thought would make me happy. I now prefer to go along with what I think God has told me will make me happy. Oh, I am not happy especially, HOWEVER I AM NOT MISERABLE AS I WOULD BE GOING BY MY DEFINITION OF HAPPINESS.
I am going to change my sign in to "learnedthehardway".

I hate the word happy. Serenity, peaceful, accepting are much better words. English needs more words.

edit: I am tired. I'm off for a bit.

You are making it sound like I am just going out there having sex with just anyone. I have stated that I don't need sex...I have been without if for a very long time. What I am saying is that I believe two people who care deeply for each other should be able to show their love and affection for one another through intimacy. Please don't make me sound like a floozy. I don't look at sex as a "good time" I see it as making love with the man you love.

Alexis · 06-12-2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

I am so sorry. I was overstating the things you could possibly think about all these posts. I put jokes after it. I apologize. I was making light of my fears about how you would see us. I should not have done that, I guess I did not know better.

Thank you for you apology.

cire perdue · 06-12-2011, 09:10 AM

I am losing it to fatigue and lack of food and need to get into doing other things today. I could have or should have said I would like to have sex and love. I could do that on your terms. I don't think it would make me happy. If she were the right person, then not having sex unless married would be no big deal.

BTW Baha'is would not care if Jesus had a child. Catholics are vested in celibacy. We aren't.

Alexis · 06-12-2011, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

I am losing it to fatigue and lack of food and need to get into doing other things today. I could have or should have said I would like to have sex and love. I could do that on your terms. I don't think it would make me happy. If she were the right person, then not having sex unless married would be no big deal.

BTW Baha'is would not care if Jesus had a child. Catholics are vested in celibacy. We aren't.

Yes, waiting to have sex until married is not big deal, as long as the person actually wants to get married again. But what if they don't???

Enjoy your day.

cire perdue · 06-12-2011, 09:25 AM

You are making a big assumption about him being willing to marry you or not. You have a ways to go. He is not a Baha'i yet. Give this some time. Wanting too much right now from him or even yourself is not ever a good idea. Let go and let God. I would say sleep on all this, but can't do that now. He is not a Baha'i yet. I hope you will report how the TALK goes.

I need a bath, to buy a fan or 2, and to go to the library to check out VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES by William James.

Alexis · 06-12-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

You are making a big assumption about him being willing to marry you or not. You have a ways to go. He is not a Baha'i yet. Give this some time. Wanting too much right now from him or even yourself is not ever a good idea. Let go and let God. I would say sleep on all this, but can't do that now. He is not a Baha'i yet. I hope you will report how the TALK goes.

I need a bath, to buy a fan or 2, and to go to the library to check out VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES by William James.

He said that he doesn't know if he will ever marry again. That is not an assumption.

LordOfGoblins · 06-12-2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

You are making it sound like I am just going out there having sex with just anyone. I have stated that I don't need sex...I have been without if for a very long time. What I am saying is that I believe two people who care deeply for each other should be able to show their love and affection for one another through intimacy. Please don't make me sound like a floozy. I don't look at sex as a "good time" I see it as making love with the man you love.

ok then keep doing it. There is nothing anyway can say to change anyone else really it is up to them. If that is your philosophy then so be it. The Bahai philosophy is not that though just so you are aware. And in anycase no offence but I can see why this guy might be running away from you because you just dont seem open minded to other philosophies or perspectives at all...
If you keep repeating that line with a Bahai it wont work. That is the law! they cannot change it or make an exception... I would never have sex for a so called love-bond with someone outside of marraige and give up loyalty to the commandments of God as I see them. So you shouldnt expect Bahais do apopt your idealogy. You should try a different tact with this guy I dont think it will work, I am a Bahai and it certainly wouldnt work with me. You would have better success trying to work through his marraige fear issues.
all the best.
-LordofGoblins

LordOfGoblins · 06-12-2011, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

My boyfriend is happy without being dedicated to God. He is not a religious person. Like I've said before, he doesn't believe in organized religion and by what I have been experiencing on this website and what I have been reading on other websites, this is as organized as any other, including mine, which I have not been a part of for many years, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a relationship with God. You can have a relationship with God and not have to belong to any church, religion or faith...what ever title you want to give it.

In my experience, religion or faith is something for weak people to lean on, when nothing else is going right in their life. Please don't take this as an insult, it is just what I have experienced friends and loved ones go through. I am not saying that this is a bad thing, it's just so.

My parents have a new person working for them to help take care of my disabled father. After her first few day here, she said that she didn't know if she could endure the work and so she called her pastor who told her she could and that she could do all things through God. It saddens me that she couldn't just say to herself, "I have to work and I will make it through this job." She said that she wouldn't have returned to work if she wouldn't have talked with her pastor.

Obviously this does not agree with the Bahai understandings.
A relationship with God without turning to the messenger of God for the day does not make sense...
There are many people who might believe they are having a relationship with God but it is their own idle fancy. Sorry its just how we see it.
The first verse of the Aqdas.

"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration."

God sets a standard of drawing close to him by sending a divine messenger with laws. We show our willingess to draw closer to God by following these laws and in return he gives us bounty helps us better understand our own self and draws us closer to him... Thats the standard. Everything else is idle fancy. The exceptions of people having divine and religious experiences are bounties of God sent to receptive souls.

Pollwr · 06-13-2011, 06:48 AM

Alexis

I know that organised religion has a bad name but, this is my take:

I believe the Bahá'í Faith is a great gift from God, for all humanity. I believe it is more than just a personal thing for some people. To be truly world embracing, to join the hearts of so many believers, there has to be organisation. The blueprint for this organisation, I believe, did not come from good people interpreting and building upon holy writings but was revealed from the start. The laws given to Bahá'ís to live their lives by sometimes are there for the good of society as a whole.

Apart from the Bahá'í teachings on sex, what do you think of the rest of it?

Here is a quotation from Abdul-Bahá

"The Faith of the Blessed Beauty is summoning mankind to safety and love, to amity and peace; it hath raised up its tabernacle on the heights of the earth, and directeth its call to all nations. Wherefore, O ye who are God's lovers, know ye the value of this precious Faith, obey its teachings, walk in this road that is drawn straight, and show ye this way to the people. Lift up your voices and sing out the song of the Kingdom. Spread far and wide the precepts and counsels of the loving Lord, so that this world will change into another world, and this darksome earth will be flooded with light, and the dead body of mankind will arise and live; so that every soul will ask for immortality, through the holy breaths of God.

Soon will your swiftly-passing days be over, and the fame and riches, the comforts, the joys provided by this rubbish-heap, the world, will be gone without a trace. Summon ye, then, the people to God, and invite humanity to follow the example of the Company on high. Be ye loving fathers to the orphan, and a refuge to the helpless, and a treasury for the poor, and a cure for the ailing. Be ye the helpers of every victim of oppression, the patrons of the disadvantaged. Think ye at all times of rendering some service to every member of the human race. Pay ye no heed to aversion and rejection, to disdain, hostility, injustice: act ye in the opposite way. Be ye sincerely kind, not in appearance only. Let each one of God's loved ones centre his attention on this: to be the Lord's mercy to man; to be the Lord's grace. Let him do some good to every person whose path he crosseth, and be of some benefit to him. Let him improve the character of each and all, and reorient the minds of men. In this way, the light of divine guidance will shine forth, and the blessings of God will cradle all mankind: for love is light, no matter in what abode it dwelleth; and hate is darkness, no matter where it may make its nest. O friends of God! That the hidden Mystery may stand revealed, and the secret essence of all things may be disclosed, strive ye to banish that darkness for ever and ever.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 2)

BruceDLimber · 06-13-2011, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

So then really, what's the difference between one's male friends and a man that you are supposedly in a romantic relationship with? They are all just friends then.

There is also the important point that in the Baha'i view, marriage is primarily a spiritual relatioship and continues FOREVER, including through the Next Life, rather than being "'til death do us part" as in Christianity!

And BTW, Baha'i law expressly forbids monasticism. asceticism, and mendicancy.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

BruceDLimber · 06-13-2011, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

Jesus and Mary Magdalene did have sex because there is archaeological evidence that they had at least one offspring....

Not that I've ever heard of!

There's been plent of SPECULATION, but that's hardly the same thing!

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber · 06-13-2011, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

What I am saying is that if we love each other, then why can't we show each other through physical love, while we are healthy and able to?

How about because God has clearly stated that doing so outside marriage is spiritually harmful to you and that this is proper within marriage ONLY?

Bruce

BruceDLimber · 06-13-2011, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

In my experience, religion or faith is something for weak people to lean on....

Which means, of course, that you are totally ignoring all the wonderful accomplishments STRONG people have been able to make because of religion!

And I will mention as a single example the more-than-20,000 individuals who have been killed for being Babi and Baha'i since its inception, including recently!

I mean you no offense, but as Shakespeare said,

"Disparage the Faith thou dost not know, lest to thy peril thou shalt aby it dear."

Bruce

Alexis · 06-13-2011, 08:15 AM

Pollwr,

I do feel that the the Baha'i teaching make sense and I agree with it, outside of the rules of sex. What if you were in a marriage that was everything, but you found out that the sex was horrible, especially since you never found out if you were sexually compatible or not? Do you then live in a marriage where you are sexually miserable? It doesn't matter how spiritually connected you are, eventually both people will become irritated and resentful be they are not sexually compatible. It doesn't matter whether you are Baha'i, Catholic or any other faith, you are only human and if you don't enjoy sex together, you will be living a miserable marriage. Then what?

I don't have anything against the Baha'i faith, but the laws of sexuality should be between the man and the woman, not a faith/religion or even God. God wants us to he happy healthy people, that's what I believe!

cire perdue · 06-13-2011, 08:43 AM

CAN be dropped. Because there is a lot more to this Faith than that. What if's aren't very practical. Maybe all this is to interest you in this Faith. I like the person I have come to know by your posts. You do seem to live a better life and attempt to love meaningfully in a casual, superficial world. However you are attempting to have sanity and sense in a world that is pretty crazy and not protecting yourself very well. Arguing further about sex is going to only strengthen your defenses, so when this can be put aside I hope you will look at Baha'u'llah's teachings AND more importantly His Writings and see if you think they are from God and for this day and age.

LordOfGoblins · 06-13-2011, 08:40 PM

what of the people who cant even have sex. What do they do. Yes there are some ppl who are born with cancer and have their genitals removed (or other reasons). I guess their lives are just empty and meaningless.

Alexis · 06-13-2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

what of the people who cant even have sex. What do they do. Yes there are some ppl who are born with cancer and have their genitals removed (or other reasons). I guess their lives are just empty and meaningless.

No, their lives are not meaningless, but because their are people out there who may not be able to have sex...are you saying that those of us who can, shouldn't?

I am a healthy, loving woman and if my partner and I want to show our affection to one another and can, then why shouldn't we? Someday, I will be old and possibly capable of not having sex, but until then, I will like to be able to, with the man I love.

Alexis · 06-13-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire perdue

CAN be dropped. Because there is a lot more to this Faith than that. What if's aren't very practical. Maybe all this is to interest you in this Faith. I like the person I have come to know by your posts. You do seem to live a better life and attempt to love meaningfully in a casual, superficial world. However you are attempting to have sanity and sense in a world that is pretty crazy and not protecting yourself very well. Arguing further about sex is going to only strengthen your defenses, so when this can be put aside I hope you will look at Baha'u'llah's teachings AND more importantly His Writings and see if you think they are from God and for this day and age.

Thank you Cire, I have enjoyed getting to know you as well. I have appreciated you insight, advice and concern for my well being. Thank you. And yes, I do love meaningfully! More than you know!! I don't let the world around me affect who I am and how I love. I think that I am protecting myself pretty well in this crazy, insane world. I have my beliefs and feel pretty strongly about them, as you haven't noticed. lol

Anyway, I will look more into the faith, especially if honey is learning about it. I know that there are a lot of good things in the faith.

BruceDLimber · 06-14-2011, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexis

Anyway, I will look more into the faith.... I know that there are a lot of good things in the faith.

That there are!

And please remember that any further questions you may have are always most welcome: we LOVE 'em! :-)

BTW, if you'd like another Baha'i forum to check out, I'd especially recommend the discussion area at Planet Baha'i, which you can find here:

Planet Baha'i

It has a great bunch of Baha'is and others and many excellent conversations!

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

06-12-2011, 08:46 AM	#81
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,619	Jokes jokes jokes I am so sorry. I was overstating the things you could possibly think about all these posts. I put jokes after it. I apologize. I was making light of my fears about how you would see us. I should not have done that, I guess I did not know better.

06-12-2011, 08:50 AM	#82
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,619	Happiness There is a crux of the matter. Baha'is believe the purpose of man is to know and love God, and only that will bring happiness. I have lived both sides of life, the material and the spiritual and prefer to strive to be on the spritual side. It is not about denial of needs. I would prefer to be married. I will not live long enough to grow up enough to be able to marry again.

06-12-2011, 08:56 AM	#84
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,619	Hey I want to go out and have sex and have a good time. I have come to firmly believe it will not, NOT make me happy. I came to that belief kicking and screaming with claw marks on everything that I thought would make me happy. I now prefer to go along with what I think God has told me will make me happy. Oh, I am not happy especially, HOWEVER I AM NOT MISERABLE AS I WOULD BE GOING BY MY DEFINITION OF HAPPINESS. I am going to change my sign in to "learnedthehardway". I hate the word happy. Serenity, peaceful, accepting are much better words. English needs more words. edit: I am tired. I'm off for a bit.

06-12-2011, 09:10 AM	#88
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,619	Your are right I am losing it to fatigue and lack of food and need to get into doing other things today. I could have or should have said I would like to have sex and love. I could do that on your terms. I don't think it would make me happy. If she were the right person, then not having sex unless married would be no big deal. BTW Baha'is would not care if Jesus had a child. Catholics are vested in celibacy. We aren't.

06-13-2011, 08:43 AM	#100
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,619	I hope that maybe the topic of sex CAN be dropped. Because there is a lot more to this Faith than that. What if's aren't very practical. Maybe all this is to interest you in this Faith. I like the person I have come to know by your posts. You do seem to live a better life and attempt to love meaningfully in a casual, superficial world. However you are attempting to have sanity and sense in a world that is pretty crazy and not protecting yourself very well. Arguing further about sex is going to only strengthen your defenses, so when this can be put aside I hope you will look at Baha'u'llah's teachings AND more importantly His Writings and see if you think they are from God and for this day and age.

06-12-2011, 08:51 AM	#83
Alexis Member Joined: Jun 2011 From: Northwestern United States Posts: 47	Baha'is are willing and are dying and serving prison terms for this Faith. We believe what we have. Don't you think there are higher purposes in life? Wouldn't you give your life up for your child? If I sound crazed, I'm not surprised because "I have seen the elephant". I know first hand what emphasizing sex creates. It is NOT that important. We really want love, real love. Rant, rant, rant....[/QUOTE] The purpose in my life is that I only have one and the God that I know wants me to be happy and live a life with a man whom I love and loves me in return. Whether we are married or not! I don't believe in the Bible because it was written by man and so there is no law that says you have to be married to have true love. Two people can truly love each other without going through a ceremony and signing a legal document. I highlighted your quote about dying and serving for the faith. My boyfriend can read that it's your quote. Actually, I hope he reads this entire thread!!

06-12-2011, 09:25 AM	#90
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,619	You are making a big assumption about him being willing to marry you or not. You have a ways to go. He is not a Baha'i yet. Give this some time. Wanting too much right now from him or even yourself is not ever a good idea. Let go and let God. I would say sleep on all this, but can't do that now. He is not a Baha'i yet. I hope you will report how the TALK goes. I need a bath, to buy a fan or 2, and to go to the library to check out VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES by William James.

06-13-2011, 06:48 AM	#94
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 311	Alexis I know that organised religion has a bad name but, this is my take: I believe the Bahá'í Faith is a great gift from God, for all humanity. I believe it is more than just a personal thing for some people. To be truly world embracing, to join the hearts of so many believers, there has to be organisation. The blueprint for this organisation, I believe, did not come from good people interpreting and building upon holy writings but was revealed from the start. The laws given to Bahá'ís to live their lives by sometimes are there for the good of society as a whole. Apart from the Bahá'í teachings on sex, what do you think of the rest of it? Here is a quotation from Abdul-Bahá "The Faith of the Blessed Beauty is summoning mankind to safety and love, to amity and peace; it hath raised up its tabernacle on the heights of the earth, and directeth its call to all nations. Wherefore, O ye who are God's lovers, know ye the value of this precious Faith, obey its teachings, walk in this road that is drawn straight, and show ye this way to the people. Lift up your voices and sing out the song of the Kingdom. Spread far and wide the precepts and counsels of the loving Lord, so that this world will change into another world, and this darksome earth will be flooded with light, and the dead body of mankind will arise and live; so that every soul will ask for immortality, through the holy breaths of God. Soon will your swiftly-passing days be over, and the fame and riches, the comforts, the joys provided by this rubbish-heap, the world, will be gone without a trace. Summon ye, then, the people to God, and invite humanity to follow the example of the Company on high. Be ye loving fathers to the orphan, and a refuge to the helpless, and a treasury for the poor, and a cure for the ailing. Be ye the helpers of every victim of oppression, the patrons of the disadvantaged. Think ye at all times of rendering some service to every member of the human race. Pay ye no heed to aversion and rejection, to disdain, hostility, injustice: act ye in the opposite way. Be ye sincerely kind, not in appearance only. Let each one of God's loved ones centre his attention on this: to be the Lord's mercy to man; to be the Lord's grace. Let him do some good to every person whose path he crosseth, and be of some benefit to him. Let him improve the character of each and all, and reorient the minds of men. In this way, the light of divine guidance will shine forth, and the blessings of God will cradle all mankind: for love is light, no matter in what abode it dwelleth; and hate is darkness, no matter where it may make its nest. O friends of God! That the hidden Mystery may stand revealed, and the secret essence of all things may be disclosed, strive ye to banish that darkness for ever and ever. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 2)

06-13-2011, 08:15 AM	#99
Alexis Member Joined: Jun 2011 From: Northwestern United States Posts: 47	Pollwr, I do feel that the the Baha'i teaching make sense and I agree with it, outside of the rules of sex. What if you were in a marriage that was everything, but you found out that the sex was horrible, especially since you never found out if you were sexually compatible or not? Do you then live in a marriage where you are sexually miserable? It doesn't matter how spiritually connected you are, eventually both people will become irritated and resentful be they are not sexually compatible. It doesn't matter whether you are Baha'i, Catholic or any other faith, you are only human and if you don't enjoy sex together, you will be living a miserable marriage. Then what? I don't have anything against the Baha'i faith, but the laws of sexuality should be between the man and the woman, not a faith/religion or even God. God wants us to he happy healthy people, that's what I believe!

06-13-2011, 08:40 PM	#101
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,329	what of the people who cant even have sex. What do they do. Yes there are some ppl who are born with cancer and have their genitals removed (or other reasons). I guess their lives are just empty and meaningless.

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