freedomunity

Dear all,

I am aware that this topic has already been discussed but as someone that is investigating the faith, I want to be sure I know everything about the topic and get as many different perspectives. PLEASE read on and help me out by letting me know what you think!

BACKGROUND:
I am an homosexual. I am attracted both physically and emotionally to men. A dear friend of mine (who has been a Baha'i all his life) is also an homosexual, in fact, him and I have had relations before. I love this person and something in the bottom of my heart (as long as many other people that know him) tells me that this person also loves me.

Now the issue....
I am not completely out but I know that I am gay and I am mostly OK with it. The other person, not so much. No one knows and even though the topic has always been part of his life for a while now all he says is that Baha'i writings say that homosexuality is a handicap and it should be cured and relations are only allowed between men and women.

It makes me extremely sad and frustrated to know that I love this person and that he might love me too but because of what the writings say, we are not allowed to be together. One of the main pillars of the Baha'i faith is the relationship between the faith and science. There are hundreds of studies out there (I urge you to look it up!) that prove that at least in part, homosexuality is an aspect that is either developed before birth, through genetics or other physiological factors. So...if science has proven that it is not directly someone's choice and that is something that a person is "born with" what do we do? We obviously cannot change our genetic of physiological make-up.

The science research is just one aspect. What about the fact that GOD CREATED US ALL with difference qualities, talents, race etc? If God created me like this why do I need to change who I am?

What about the idea of UNITY? This topic has caused such hate and disunity! It doesn't matter who I love. Serving God is not quite connected to whether or not I am attracted to women/men. Who cares who I love! Unless you are an homosexual, you have no idea how it feels completely. I am able to love someone just as a woman and a man are able to. Why force me to change?

And TRUTHFULNESS? If "Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues" why should I lie about who I am? Or perhaps end up marrying someone just because society tells me I should marry a woman and hope that perhaps marrying someone of the opposite sex will make me straight. Isn't that being untruthful? To be truthful to other individuals I think that you first need to be truthful to yourself.

There are many other points about this but I am interested to know what you all think. If you do have quotes from recent letters and discussion please do share!

All I know is that this aspect of the faith is #1 factor that is hindering me from continuing my investigation of the faith. And also that several friends of mine have come to cry to me telling me they were gay and didn't know what to do because "religion says it's not OK". I am pretty sure God, the all-mighty, all-loving will not close His door to me just because I love someone that is different from what is thought to be "normal".

I look forward to reading your answers!
Thank you!

arthra

Regardless of your issues the number one priority in your life is a spiritual one.. If you are a seeker then the priority is to investigate. If or when you arrive at the belief that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this day then you know what your priorities are and what you should do..

All of us have issues of one kind or another and we have to I believe struggle in our spiritual lives ...

The state in which one should be to seriously search for the truth is the condition of the thirsty, burning soul desiring the water of life, of the fish struggling to reach the sea, of the sufferer seeking for the true doctor to obtain the divine cure, of the lost caravan endeavoring to find the right road, of the lost and wandering ship striving to reach the shore of salvation.

Therefore, the seeker must be endowed with certain qualities. First of all, he must be just and severed from all else save God; his heart must be entirely turned to the supreme horizon; he must be free from the bondage of self and passion, for all these are obstacles. Furthermore, he must be able to endure all hardships. He must be absolutely pure and sanctified, and free from the love or the hatred of the inhabitants of the world. Why? because the fact of his love for any person or thing might prevent him from recognizing the truth in another, and, in the same way, hatred for anything might be a hindrance in discerning truth. This is the condition of seeking, and the seeker must have these qualities and attributes. Until he reaches this condition, it is not possible for him to attain to the Sun of Reality.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 38

Lunitik

Homosexuality is itself not against the faith, what is not permitted is to act on it. Straight people also must combat this desire, so it is not something which is strictly for the homosexuals to endure. What is different, however, is that marriage can only be between a male and female, thus a homosexual Baha'i couple can never actually relieve their desires naturally according to the faith. It is curious, however, that while you are not permitted to live with the opposite sex outside of marriage unless they are family, it is perfectly ok to live together as the same sex. There is also the Baha'i provision that confessing of sins is not permitted at all, so provided you do not flaunt sexuality around Baha'is, I don't really see how you can be stopped from it.

This is not my attempt to condone anything, my only suggestion is that repression is not healthy at all under any circumstances or for any reason. When one represses their desire, it will become an obsession, and will occupy more and more of their life. I hope this gentleman has gotten to a stage where sex simply isn't something he desires a great deal as this is better for him overall, but if he cannot control his urge he should relieve it.

That said, it is also wrong to try to convince him of this. You must not provide him with any sort of rationale to change a decision he has made provided he is maintaining it in a healthy way. My best advice for you would be to merely continue being there for him and respect his wishes, if you love him this should be easy. If it is lust on your part rather than love, you will think of yourself first however - even if you have deluded yourself into thinking it is best for him too.

cire perdue

I met the person who was able to answer all my questions at the right time in my in life a gay bar. After what I had fully experienced of the gay life, I did not believe I wanted any children raised with it, nor was it healthy in any respect. If you take the best most moral gay person and average him/her with the most promiscuous etc. of the other extreme the average is not very good. People are very naive about the sexual side of gay. If it were a healthy lifestyle why are there naked men in a gay pride parade? Bathhouses?There is a sexual agenda that is ignored and unseen by the uninitiated. The Baha'i Faith is about spiritual health.

First of all, find!, FIND, go look for any definitive scientific studies that say what you said is the cause of homosexuality. Show me. There are none, that is hearsay. Popular acceptance is not scientific fact. EVEN if it is genetic it can be accepted and changed by an individual.

Being a homosexual is absolutely acceptable to the Faith. I am perceived as gay and never been treated anyway but loving. Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is not acceptable. Homosexuals are expected to teach the Faith like anyone else, and are expected to serve the Faith like anyone else.

I highly recommend that you obtain a copy of any of Joseph Nicolosi's books. IF, if I was honest it described my life and I could attribute always feeling different to lack of bonding with my father and being terribly hurt by him as a child. I did identify more with my mother. Of course only certain boys accepted me.

IMPORTANT: having sex with the opposite sex is not the solution at all. In fact it can backfire and be a trauma. Nicolosi says homosexuals need bonding, loving relationships that are non-sexual with their own sex. They have to become their own whole person. Doing that creates attraction to the opposite sex.That is the real solution, being whole, having a true choice. Gay people are aware that heterosexuals can be seduced at times. Similarly a homosexual can learn to function as a heterosexual. In a healthy setting it only takes a loving understanding partner who is committed and a true relationship is formed that is much more important than sex. It is being clear on the difference of spiritual feelings and bodily emotions. We really have those confused right now. The only real love and happiness is going to come from spiritual fulfillment and not acting out on pain that may go back to early development and/or early seduction. There are multiple pathways to being gay.

Any Baha'i who is homosexual is cheating him/herself if he/she is not in a group established for recovery and/or has support from knowledgeable friends. I did not fully enter recovery from this until 22 years ago when I got help. I have even attended a Christian group for support. There are recovering people out there. Without help, working on myself and all my issues I really did NOT have a choice about it. It felt so tough it might as well have been genetic. Consider looking for help and support from knowledgeable people. I have not been open about my history. Ignorant "help" can be more upsetting than none.

cire perdue

It should not be a surprise that most of us in western cultures/society do not understand our feelings very well nor how love and virtues affect us. Shoghi Effendi said despite love between 2 people of the same sex, it should not be expressed physically. I think it is very important to be able to determine how love feels to one and to see if there are mixed messages that involve one's history. This is not an easy thing to do. I do know now that I have reached a detached state from sexual feelings things look entirely different. It has been a difficult place to get to, it took time and persistence. I did not know what it would be like until I got there. My reactions have changed enough that I surprise myself. What I believe will make me happy has definitely changed.

Joseph Nicolosi believes that everyone is basically heterosexual. If things contrary to this occur and are learned as one develops then it is covered over. Real happiness for anyone involves being clear about what their feelings really are. How many have married someone and later not understood why they are with this person? We all need to know who we are.

Choosing this Faith should not be undertaken lightly. I hope you will find that you believe in it enough to change your life, it can be and has been done.

DinozGoRawr

wow- well first of all i am also gay, so I know exactly how you feel.
I have shied away from religion because of the fact that i was NOT allowed to be who I am. And i personally do not care about what other people say about the nature of homosexuality. We may never know why we ended up the way we did, but why should it matter? I was born this way. And I am not changing to fit Anyone's mold. God made me the way I am, and i'm going to love myself and enjoy my life.

I personally think that who you love should be involved in Religion. If it is genuine felt love, the kind of love that gives everything you have, and doesn't only seek physical pleasure, the kind of love that endures everything and never seeks anything in return, then Love. As long as you also love God, and keep him as a focus in your life I don't see a problem with it ♥
So many religions claim that their God is loving, compassionate and forgiving, but turn around and judge homosexuals for their sexual preference, saying that God doesn't love them just because they are attracted to the same sex, or their going to "hell" for the same reason.... how can i loving God do that?

....... I can't really answer all your questions because I have the same questions.... I have my entire life to learn. What I do know is, I'm going to follow my heart, and not care what other people say, they are no one to judge me, as i am no one to judge them. ♥ i will live my life happily and with God.

i don't think this has helped much, but i wanted to start a thread about this but was too shy, just thought i'd let all my feelings (there are SO many more, I just don't like opening old scars) out...

I wish you nothing but light and love on your path,
and remember, you were born this way- don't let anyone tell you otherwise


[and please don't start harassing me with insulting comments about my homosexuality please. Because, from what I have learned of the Baha'i faith (and i do admit i haven't learned much yet) it's a faith of Love, Unity and Respect]

cire perdue

I hope that anyone who is gay with interest in this Faith will become aware of the Baha'i position on sexual matters, not just homosexuality. The eyes of the Faith are not closed to this issue. There is great compassion and love for a homosexual, but the path for the homosexual who chooses to become a Baha'i will hopefully be one that is to a much different drummer than is popularly accepted and touted. I am absolutely happy with the choice I made about my sexuality and the Faith. I have had little success in other areas of life, but this is where I know I have succeeded. You cannot see the view from the moutain until you reach the top and it's the point of the climb. I never thought clearly understanding so much about myself and then others would mean so much.

freedomunity

Dear friends,

First of all, thank you for your responses!

Of those of you that seem to have overcome homosexuality, who is married with a woman or has had successful relationships with women?

In addition, no one can deny that studies have been done on the topic. I urge you all to read this article Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture in AllPsych Journal . In addition, please take a look at this PDF Redirect Page by American Psychological Association and in particular note this paragraph regarding homosexuality being a disorder:

"No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder."

It is clear that studies have been done to prove both biological and environmental theories about homosexuality. We have to admit that there are scientific showing and support for both views. This issue, (which is not even an issue!) is what is diving us further.

Best,
freedomunity

cire perdue

"We have examined many causes for homosexuality in the preceding pages, both biological and social. And although an interesting topic of debate, no one theory or experiment leads to a definitive answer. "

The Baha'i stand on homosexuality is a fixed one in my understanding. The implications are that it can be changed or accommodated to Baha'i standards no matter what the cause of it. Have you read Nicolosi's work? I do not expect the Baha'i view to be accepted. I also do not see gay people beating down the door to come in. Sexual activity is very limited in this Faith. A lifestye which at any time is sexually promiscuous is not considered spiritually healthy. I think it is exactly the way it is supposed to be. Baha'is are accepting and loving and do not pry into individual believer's private lives. In practice one does not see active Baha'is who have a secret life or if such becomes apparent, it is not accepted. It is not window dressing. There is a very great deal to the Faith besides this issue. I would not want to talk about only this issue when the social teachings and the sacred writings of the Baha'i Faith hold so much more. I did have a successful marriage in part, but lack of maturity on both our parts broke it up. We are friends.

pheonixduprese

Hey everyone... long time, no see(:

So recently (as in, within the last thirty minutes) I was browsing some compilations and found one related to homosexuality. After reading it, it stirred me, and I was on the verge of having a spiritual crisis. How could I concile my faith with my sexuality and my beliefs?

So, of course, the first thing I do is come here to see what the discussion has been about homosexuality. luckily, I see this thread.(:

And if I may say my two cents, I firmly believe that, while I might personally disagree with the Faith's stance on this point, it won't change the fact that I AM a Baha'i, that I believe Baha'u'llah to be a manifestation of God, that God is One, that Religion is One, that the human race is One, that religion is progressively revealed to us through his Manifestations, and everything else encompassed by the Baha'i Faith, save the issue of homosexuality.

This brings me to another good point-
My relationship with God is private. Being gay has absolutely nothing to do with my relationship with God. God has decided to place me in this position, to give me this rather unique quality. It does not affect the fact that I believe in God, and nothing will change that.

While I believe that what Baha'u'llah says is true, the laws and teachings that govern this issue are mutable over time, as social situations change. While we may have to wait 850 years for the next manifestation to bring about change on this topic, I hold strong convictions that one day, it will be okay to be gay in the Faith.

-Cole(:

LordOfGoblins

Personally I do not feel it will ever be acceptable in the eyes of God that man should bond physically with man in a sexual way. I feel this was ordained to be always with women. Men with woman, woman with man.
THe QUran.
"Praise be to God who hath created all things in pairs".

The opposites coming together. I appreciate tolerance is valuable and all people are at their own stages of their journey, I do not think however as the religion of God evolved that it will allow for men to be together in this way or women either.
Of course everyone is entitled to do what they will. However I think God presents an ideal notion of how man should be. As he advances and becomes refined he sees the picture clearer of what this ideal should look like.
If people could learn to see beyond what they desire they would know that God is the true desire of every heart.
I wish you all the best.

pheonixduprese

It kills me to say it, but I agree with you on a point- it's more natural to be straight.

Genesis 1:27- So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [KJV]

There was a time when I desired to be straight. I prayed and prayed to be straight, but after a time I had to concede to myself that I was gay, and whether or not I change will be out of my control.

But, as science evolves, I'm certain that it will come to prove that it is extremely hard, if not impossible, to make someone straight through counseling or other methods. Therefore, in the interests of keeping science and religion conciled, equality will, one day, be granted to homosexuals. If science proves otherwise, then so be it... but I'm confident that it won't. (:

Of course, the true goal of anyone's spiritual journey is to leave all forms of desire behind, so they can further seek God. It doesn't matter if you're homosexual or heterosexual; at the end of this journey, all that will matter is God.

sonjavank

Greetings all, I'm a Bahai who believes that God doesn't make any mistakes and so sees nothing wrong with gays, transgender and any other form of orientation. And I'm also a Bahai who is convinced that science has shown that being gay is largely inherited and that belief and science should balance with one another. So my view is, there's nothing wrong with being gay, so why are gays then treated differently?

It has bothered me for many years that the official teaching is that gays may not marry or have a partnership and raise kids and so a decade or more ago I started looking into the writings to see if I could find where this teaching can be found and / or if this something set in stone, never to be changed or whether it is a social teaching that can be changed.

I still have yet to find a single word penned by Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha or Shoghi Effendi writing in his official role as interpretor of Bahai scripture where homosexuality is written about. Letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi do condemn homosexuality and some previous posts on this thread have referred to these but these letters are not the same authority as unchangeable Bahai scripture. If they were, then the letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi which states that Bahais should not use birth control would be followed. I've written a number of blogs now discussing the contexts and possible meanings of these letters and I've been filing them as well so if it easier for anyone who wants to see exactly what is written >> Find theme : word : blog « Just a Bahai Blog

I think the hardest thing for a gay Bahai is loneliness - so have a look here and feel free to chat anonymously if you wish. >> GLBSP Main - Gay/Lesbian Baha'i Story Project

Rani

Hi Phoenix,

Just wanted to say 'Hi', and say that I'm glad you hold fast to having a belief in God and a relationship with Him.

I do tend to agree with LordofG and think that it won't be allowable in the religion of God for men to be with men, or women to be with women.

Dare I say it, perhaps before the next Manifestation, there could be some relaxation to some laws, because that is apparently what happens sometimes; that is, that religion can become corrupted, -they relax laws to make the Faith more attractive, and that is why a new Manifestation is needed.

Perhaps it won't be. I am just thinking of the example of the ordination of women in the Christian church. The Bible clearly says that women are not to act in that role, as I read, but yet it has become practice for women in some churches to be ordained. There are christian homosexuals who have been ordained also, I think.

But I feel great sympathy for your situation, for lack of a better word.

I understand it is a tougher battle for sure for one to attempt to overcome those feelings, than a single heterosexual person who may have to stay single. For you have two battles -overcoming feelings and finding a suitable partner, whereas the heterosexual only has the one.
Still, it is true that some heterosexuals may not find a partner in their lives for various reasons whether it be extreme shyness or a physical handicap, and yet they still need to be celibate in the faith.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you what you need to do -sorry. Just saying that I'm glad you are still a friend with others baha'is, and I wish you all the best.

cire perdue

I think that in the near future gays will be very open and it will become more apparent why it is not an appropriate lifestyle. If one has been immersed enough in that lifestyle it is very apparent. I continue to believe it is mutable if someone makes the effort and has the faith to do so. If there is an ideal for a healthy community to rise children then homosexual behavior is not part of that. Popular acclaim is not a good way to decide things. Stable couples among gay men that are truly monogamous have always been an exception and occur more in later life. Mardi Gras and the at times openly sexual practices of gay people in the French Quarter can surely affect views about accepting homosexuality without reservations.

Baha'is have always accepted gay people. However that person is expected to live the same lifestyle as other Baha'is. Sexual orientation can be changed if one is motivated enough. I do not think the Faith's stand will ever change, especially because we do not exclude letters written on behalf of the Guardian, usually by his wife, from our teaching and understanding. No one who is firm in the Covenant separates these teachings out by source. As long as one is attached to their perceptions they will not be able to accept many of the Baha'i teachings. The prejudice of that view is so obvious. Challenge yourself, not the Faith. After all that IS God's point. It's a challenge. It is easier to say the Faith is wrong, but there is no fulfillment in that argument, not like what would come with the struggle to uphold and find the truth of the Faith's stand.

Rani

Slightly off topic, but still on 'chastity':

If it becomes apparent why the homosexual lifestyle is not an appropriate one in the near future, I hope it also becomes apparent that living together or having sex b4 marriage, for example, is not good or appropriate either.
Just don't want to let we heterosexuals off easily.

It just seems so readily accepted in society these days that couples usually have sex b4 marriage and yet often they seem to thrive in the marriage that might ensue.
Like trying it out for a couple of years to see if it feels right and then taking the plunge.

I seem to have seen it in some baha'i examples too.. That a couple have sex and try it out.. get married, and it works out. It almost seems they're rewarded. Sorry, am I off-topic?
The Baha'is are pretty forgiving, but when I read the standard we are meant to strive for it's higher than that, and God is pretty strict. That's just my perception.

cire perdue

I agree. I really do not think people know who they are. It takes time to know a person, I would say at least a year. The whole point is to find out if you fit well, and sex is not a good determinant for that. There may be better sex in bad relationships b/c there is more tension to release. Great sex is probably a lousy reason to get married! Once standards are in place and acceptable and understood all this controversy will go away. We just need more successfully married Baha'is with great children!

husaynvillar

Dear friend,
with all due respect, I think you're not looking for an answer or opinion with which to enrich your findings, but hope to find people who think like you.
The Bahá'í Faith teaches that the expression of sex drive (specifically sexual) can only be practiced among married people and marriage can only occur between people of different sexes.
suggest that the Baha'i Faith tries to drive people to go against their impulses and marry the opposite sex, despite the homosexual inclinations is unreal. The Baha'i Faith does not claim that homosexuals change his / her genetic of Physiological conditions.
The Baha'i Faith does not suggest that the ability to serve God is determined by sexual orientation.
Current research on homosexuality are hardly free of ideology. But beyond that, you will see that "polygamous inclinations" are also a natural characteristic of humans (especially males). But as physiological, is not permissible for a Baha'i
About being true to yourself, this is true, but the individualistic vision leads us to conclude that means you have to do "everything that makes us feel pleasure". but beyond our impulses, emotions and instincts, there is a Higher Will.
Personally, I believe in Bahá'u'lláh, and therefore, I accept His laws.
I appreciate the sincerity of your post, but I think if you expect to find some hermeneutics to conclude that the Baha'i Faith endorse homosexual behavior, the way you're wrong.

cire perdue

Husaynvillar, that is an astute post. Thank you. The Faith does not expect someone to change their sexual orientation.

I, however, want others to be aware that it is possible and that Baha'is have done it, and others as well. I did not believe there would be a prohibition for which there is no solution. There are recovering homosexuals. Who has the motivation to do so when there is popular acceptance? A Baha'i does. There is great information out there for this. Joseph Nicolosi's works are probably the best.
Thanks, CP

aidan

have I missed something?Need I state the obvious.Being a homosexual does not go against the tenets of the Baha'i faith.Sex outside of marriage is banned for heterosexuals and this requires great self-control.The homosexual act is forbidden and also requires great self-contreinol.To love another human being of any sex is a gift from God

freedomunity

Dear friends,

Interesting responses.

I advise you all take a look at these wonderful writings:

“The second classification or division comprises social laws and regulations applicable to human conduct. This is not the essential spiritual quality of religion. It is subject to change and transformation according to the exigencies and requirements of time and place.”
(Address by Abdu’l Baha Abbas before Congregation Emmanu-El, San Francisco, Cal.
(Martin A. Meyer, Rabbi) Saturday, October 12, 1912.
- Star of the West, Vol. 3, No. 13, p. 3)

Times are changed, and the need and fashion of the world are changed. Interference with creed and faith in every country causes manifest detriment, while justice and equal dealing towards all peoples on the face of the earth are the means whereby progress is effected.
(Abdu’l-Baha, A Traveller’s Narrative, p. 87)

Laws and statutes of governments civil and federal are in process of change and transformation. Sciences and arts are being moulded anew. Thoughts are metamorphosed. The foundations of human society are changing and strengthening.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith – Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 228)

It should also be borne in mind that the machinery of the Cause has been so fashioned, that whatever is deemed necessary to incorporate into it in order to keep it in the forefront of all progressive movements, can, according to the provisions made by Bahá’u'lláh, be safely embodied therein.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u'llah, p. 22-23)

Science is the discoverer of the past. From its premises of past and present we deduce conclusions as to the future. Science is the governor of nature and its mysteries, the one agency by which man explores the institutions of material creation. All created things are captives of nature and subject to its laws. They cannot transgress the control of these laws in one detail or particular. The infinite starry worlds and heavenly bodies are nature’s obedient subjects. The earth and its myriad organisms, all minerals, plants and animals are thralls of its dominion. But man through the exercise of his scientific, intellectual power can rise out of this condition, can modify, change and control nature according to his own wishes and uses. Science, so to speak, is the breaker of the laws of nature.
(Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 29)

Fadl

Friend,

None of these quotes give us the right to disregard the laws of the Aqdas, however.

husaynvillar

Dear Cire perdue,

I had never read the Joseph Nicolosi's works. This is very interesting.
As you say, if we believe in Bahá'u'lláh, we should challenge ourselves to conform ourselves to what Bahá'u'lláh has established. totally agree, can not think that our inclinations must be satisfied by the simple fact that we are born with them.
Best regards. husayn

freedomunity

Hello all,

It is true, we shouldn't disregard the laws but as mentioned in these quotes "Times are changed, and the need and fashion of the world are changed". If in a few months, the world of science were to agree that homosexuality is something natural, what would happen with the faith? (Religion and Science go together, according to the faith).

"Religion must conform to science and reason; otherwise, it is superstition. God has created man in order that he may perceive the verity of existence and endowed him with mind or reason to discover truth. Therefore, scientific knowledge and religious belief must be conformable to the analysis of this divine faculty in man."
- 'Abdu'l-Bahá , The Promulgation of Universal Peace

Homosexuality is seen as not natural because the majority of people are straight. It doesn't mean that people with handicap are not natural. They are. Nature is imperfect.

If you could, I would like to see where exactly Bahá'u'lláh himself says something about homosexuality? (To be remembered homosexuality is NOT Pederasty).

cire perdue

Science may say homosexuality is genetic, but natural is not a scientific category. People may conclude it is natural. If you crowd rats they become "homosexual". So?

Cystic fibrosis and alcoholism are genetic, they could be said to be natural. There is no reason to expect the Faith to have a different view about homosexuality. Your arguments won't matter. Why don't you use the energy to research homosexual recovery? It is obviously a spiritual challenge for you. Baha'is who understand the Covenant do not split the Writings from the Institutions making one have more value than another.

You can be naive or you can be firm in the Covenant. How can you consider a homosexual lifestyle healthy? Don't you think you could attempt an act of faith? Scared to try? You may fail some before you succeed. Progress counts, not perfection.

Read my new post Caution: faith required!

cire perdue

[/QUOTE] (To be remembered homosexuality is NOT Pederasty).[/QUOTE]



ped·er·as·ty   /ˈpɛdəˌræsti, ˈpidə-/ Show Spelled
[ped-uh-ras-tee, pee-duh-] Show IPA

–noun
sexual relations between two males, especially when one of them is a minor.


I find it interesting that there is so much misinformation used to validate homosexuality. Even if it is a minor, it is between 2 males. That is homosexual. All these arguments are erroneous assumptions. A science and religion argument holds no water. This is a moral issue, a family issue. Why are there naked men in gay pride parades? Why is there blatant sexual behavior in public at gay events? It is naive in the extreme to equate any homosexual lifestyle with monogamous faith based herterosexual lifestyles and marriage. Just wait a few years, it will be obvious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...rasty?o=100074

freedomunity

First definition that I found on the internet (Oxford Dictionary) is that of:

sexual activity involving a man and a boy.

Homosexuality is NOT pedophilia.

Pederasty is the ONLY reference to what has been translated as homosexuality by Shoghi Effendi.

It is sad to see how many individuals do not accept themselves for who they are mainly because of what society has told them is right and wrong. As homosexuals, we are a gift of God. Something God made himself. I have a hard time believing that getting over homosexuality with a doctor's help actually happens. What happens is people start lying about who they are, people get depressed, people kill themselves. That's the reality of 2011. We are not in the 1950's. Today's youth is rejected by society because of who they and so, not having anyone to support, end up getting involved in activities that are not decent (parades etc).

aidan

reedomunity pllease read my post on Caution Faith Required

cire perdue

Pederasty is not pedophilia. It is an archaic term which you and others have chosen (boys can mean any age by the dictionary, the term for pederasty has been projected onto the verse), however in the quote you refer to, Baha'u'llah shrank from dwelling more on the subject of boys which very obviously meant more of the subject would be covered later. Do you think Abdu'l-baha did not know what His Father meant? or The Guardian? Wow! You reject the further elucidation. That is a choice. If you reject that then the door is open for all kind of rejection by whomever and whenever. Gee I think I want a second wife. Your post said you wanted help. We can't help you live a gay lifestyle. We can't help you change the Faith. Read my other post on Homosexuality and the Faith. Think about who and what Baha'u'llah is.

freedomunity

...since when does "boys" mean men of any age? "you and the others"....there seem to be some hate in hidden in that address. If I want to be a gay baha'i, I will be and no one can stop me from being true to myself.

And to add...."me and the others" are not the ones the chose to use the term PEDERASTY. It is used in the The Kitáb-i-Aqdas and I can assure you that I did not write the book. From the text "The word translated here as "boys" has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of paederasty. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations."

With all due respect, I'd like to hear different opinions that yours, cire perdue, as it is clear we will not be agreeing. But I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts! Thanks!

cire perdue

–noun
1. a male child, from birth to full growth, especially one less than 18 years of age.
2. a young man who lacks maturity, judgment, etc.
3. Informal . a grown man, especially when referred to familiarly: He liked to play poker with the boys.

I could NOT find pederasty in the AQDAS, because in the AQDAS it has British spelling, paederasty. I made the assumption from seeing previous focus on that argument that it was an assumption as well. Nevertheless that issue will be made clear when gay lifestyles are in more evidence.

I am adamant about this issue. I have trouble believing people will go against The Guardian of the Faith. The Universal House of Justice has already reiterated it will not change. It's much more than one issue. We can't pick and choose what we want to believe. I am very aware of how tough this issue is, but nevertheless chastity applies. I was attracted more to the Faith when I found it was against homosexuality. I won't say anymore here.

aidan

The fact that The Faiths disapproval of homosexualty was an attraction for you is revealing indeed

aidan

[QUOTE=freedomunity;21893]...since when does "boys" mean men of any age? "you and the others"....there seem to be some hate in hidden in that address. If I want to be a gay baha'i, I will be and no one can stop me from being true to myself.

And to add...."me and the others" are not the ones the chose to use the term PEDERASTY. It is used in the The Kitáb-i-Aqdas and I can assure you that I did not write the book. From the text "The word translated here as "boys" has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of paederasty. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations."

With all due respect, I'd like to hear different opinions that yours, cire perdue, as it is clear we will not be agreeing. But I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts! Thanks!
When I declared for the Faith I had to make changes to my life.Ive given up alcohol,stopped having casual sex with women etc.Ive been hetero for as long as I cah remember.IM celibate now and may be for the rest of my life unless God wants me to marry.I am a non-practising heterosexual.I dont believe that comparing homosexuality to alcoholism and saying it can be overcome in a similar way is a valid thesis

cire perdue

Especially since I was gay when I became a Baha'i! I already considered myself a Baha'i and thought it was okay to be gay. I mean like, Seals and Crofts were gay, they looked it to me. It ultimately was a confirmation for me. That did not make it easy. I acceptted that it was not okay to be gay and be a Baha'i and have a double life, to be homosexual and chaste, yes, but to live a homosexual lifestyle was not an issue for me. I understand and accepted the reasons for it! I could not be true to myself and be gay and be a Baha'i. It felt wrong.

It's hard to change. It's hard to be chaste. Thank God there was recovery. All anyone who is gay and believes in the Faith can do is go forward, pray, and see where their path leads them. It is difficult, very, believe me I know. If I don't have enough compassion, it is hard to have that if the laws are dismissed. If you are having a hard time obeying the laws, rather than pulling them down, then I'm all for you.

cire perdue

by Joseph J. Nicolosi. I just received this in the mail and have gotten through only a little of it. It very clearly delineates a pathway that is developmental at ages 1-3 for predisposition to homosexual orientation. It is written for therapists, but if you understand terms like splitting, narcissism, and Rogerian therapy you can probably handle it. I don't know that you have to understand everything in there to get a lot out of the book. It is the clearest of Nicolosi's work to me, but as his says it's after more than 20 years of practice in the field of homosexual reparitive therapy. My history with narcissistic parents is right in there.

Interestingly there is a foreword by a former APA president. There is actually a lot of professional support for this therapy, but it is not for anyone who is unwilling or wants to accept a gay lifestyle. The book is also cheaper than earlier works by Nicolosi which are upwards of $40.

AEMoss

Trying to change the Baha'i Faith from within, to bring about a "change" of mentality where homosexuals will be fully accepted, with homosexual marriage, etc., will be a very long, very difficult project indeed! Probably not impossible, but nearly so.

I seriously doubt the Universal House of Justice will one day announce: "Gay is OK!" when in fact they have the Writings and Directives of the Guardian which say otherwise.

More likely, the House may someday simply "ignore" the matter and let individual Spiritual Assemblies "deal" with it. In the more conservative ones they will be anti-gay. In the more liberal ones, more pro-gay.

Some of the more "liberal" Baha'i Communities, there is an "unspoken rule" that one does not discuss their sexuality! Plenty of gay and lesbian Baha'is in San Francisco and West Hollywood and even New York City. They just don't "discuss" their sex life, and everybody's happy.

BUT....again, "if" the Baha'i Faith is of God, and God is directing the House, then you should expect in the World Order of Baha'u'llah, all homosexual relationships will be AGAINST THE LAW, and punished with at least a fine that doubles with each offense!

So, let me ask you: WHY BOTHER? Why bother with the Baha'i Faith when there are plenty of churches that will accept gays and lesbians fully with no condemnation of their behavior such as....

*The UNITY Churches (Unity School of Christiantiy)

*Many liberal Episcopal churches

*The Metropolitan churches.

*The UU Church (Unitarian Universalist) The Unitarian-Baha'i Fellowship accepts "Gay Baha'is" fully! They meet in UU churches. There are about 250 of them in the U.S., but they are growing.

*Wicca

*Church of Satan


So, you have a choice:

a) Become a Baha'i, and remain celebate.
b) With prayer and therapy, become hetero or at least "bi" and simply do not ACT upon your homosexual desires, and marry someone opposite your gender.
c) Become a Baha'i, and be sexually active as a homosexual, but live the "don't ask, don't tell" rule as a Baha'i. As long are you don't talk about your sexuality, or identify another as your "sexual partner" or "marry" somebody of the same sex, the local LSA will NOT condemn you nor sensor you.
d) Join or start a Unitarian-Baha'i Fellowship at a local UU church.
e) Join a religion/church which fully accepts homosexuals as they are.
f) Call youself a Deist and drop organized religion completely.

Make your choice.

cire perdue

Interestingly you have carefully shown an additional reference in other places by Baha'u'llah that invalidates your stance above. Man you have some mind. You will play both sides won't ya? You supported the Baha'i teachings against homosexuality and now you attack that view. Baha'is do not engage in this kind of discourse. Quelle domage!

Prodaytrader

Whatever the cause of homosexuality, it is an animalistic craving like any other. Souls are a genderless entity. This would mean that upon your death your homosexuality would cease to exist. If God made you this way then he made you with a more outwardly showing handicap then one that can be hidden like certain others. God made me with an anger issue. I struggle with it constantly. What you need to understand is that we are all born with handicaps which we spend our lives striving to conquer. Homosexuality is not something you can in good faith act on any more then I could act on a desire to sleep with children, animals or any other form of sexual orientation. Since you aren't permitted to marry I can't see how living together would be allowed while living chaste lives together. Homosexuality can be cured although not for everyone which is tough luck for those people but in no way is that an excuse to act on it. As a healthy heterosexual man I find daily temptations which I would love to be able to act on, but for the Love of God and family I choose not to act on those desires. Controlling sexual desires is something all men are faced with, maybe more so for men the women, but we must control them none the less.

No there will never come a time when a future manifestation will allow homosexuality. That would usurp the purpose for why it isn't allowed now. We as a society are moving forward so a future manifestation would build on that not change it and allow it. Either way it's not for us to predict Gods will for future generations. We are to live by the guidance that is presented to us at this time.

It does seem to me that your attempting to justify a position to which you have already made up your mind too. Can one be a Bahai in part? I don't know the answer to that question. Can one be a practicing homosexual Bahai in secret? No Baha'i I know would condone it but that's not for us to decide. Being a Bahai is about seeking truth and then implementing that truth and changing our lives to account for that truth. Do Baha'is break their own laws? You bet but they don't do it openly I can assure you of that!

tonyfish58

Prodaytrader - I am interested in certain parts of your reply. The laws of this dispensation are a real challenge to a lot of us. I think there is a lot of us that are Baha'is in part, that are striving to be whole. We do justify or just let a lapse slip from our mind if we fall short of the requirements. I find it...well quite annoying that we know full well what is required of us, but we still can let it slip. Strange creatures we are indeed

This is where we must bring ourselves to account at the end of each day and after we do this strive to implement the result of that meditation.

I also have found it interesting how some laws are easy as pie and others just not able to be obtained with such ease (due to self). I have also noticed to what extent some Bahai's will go to follow a law, when another may not have even contemplated it. Example...

We are instructed to follow the laws of our land, lets face it most of us would let this slip on occasions. The example I am thinking of is speeding. Something most of us may do, but this one Baha'i I knew would in no way commit this or any other traffic/or law offense as Baha'u'llah had instructed him to follow the laws of the land. This is the extent some are capable of and well a lot of us just fall plain short of this.

As you have said - This is between us and God

Regards Tony

aidan

[QUOTE=Prodaytrader;26959]Whatever the cause of homosexuality, it is an animalistic craving like any other. Souls are a genderless entity. This would mean that upon your death your homosexuality would cease to exist. If God made you this way then he made you with a more outwardly showing handicap then one that can be hidden like certain others. God made me with an anger issue. I struggle with it constantly. What you need to understand is that we are all born with handicaps which we spend our lives striving to conquer. Homosexuality is not something you can in good faith act on any more then I could act on a desire to sleep with children, animals or any other form of sexual orientation. Since you aren't permitted to marry I can't see how living together would be allowed while living chaste lives together. Homosexuality can be cured although not for everyone which is tough luck for those people but in no way is that an excuse to act on it. As a healthy heterosexual man I find daily temptations which I would love to be able to act on, but for the Love of God and family I choose not to act on those desires. Controlling sexual desires is something all men are faced with, maybe more so for men the women, but we must control them none the less.

No there will never come a time when a future manifestation will allow homosexuality. That would usurp the purpose for why it isn't allowed now. We as a society are moving forward so a future manifestation would build on that not change it and allow it. Either way it's not for us to predict Gods will for future generations. We are to live by the guidance that is presented to us at this time.

It does seem to me that your attempting to justify a position to which you have already made up your mind too. Can one be a Bahai in part? I don't know the answer to that question. Can one be a practicing homosexual Bahai in secret? No Baha'i I know would condone it but that's not for us to decide. Being a Bahai is about seeking truth and then implementing that truth and changing our lives to account for that truth. Do Baha'is break their own laws? You bet but they don't do it openly I can assure you of that![/QU
Paedophilia and bestiality should not be included in a discourse on homoexuality.There is no relevance whatsoever