UmmNoorie

Hi everyone

This is my first post, and I probably should have started off with an introduction first.

My husband and I are very interested in the Bahai faith, and we have spent considerable amounts of time reading up on Bahai literature via the web.

We actually both come from a Muslim background (long story), and have found the striking similarities between the two faiths to be very comforting (if that makes sense). I'm not trying to offend anyone when I say this, but it's as if we have found a reform or progressive form of Islam within the faith. This is actually very important to us as we wish to grow spiritually, and foster a sense of global awareness, discipline, and accountability within our children as well.

I was invited to a few Bahai meets in my area, and I thoroughly enjoyed their company. We even were invited to the birthday of Bahaullah. I noticed something in regard to the dress of the women. Many were dressed very scantily (again, no offense), and I was wondering if this is seen as something rather acceptable in the faith? The men were dressed very formally (suit, tie, etc)

I've never worn the headscarf (except during prayers) publicly in my life.
I am referring to the "hijab" that is in regard to the believing men and women guarding themselves. "Hijab" actually refers to modest dress more than the head scarf. Of course this ayat is from the Quran, but I was just wondering if modesty in dress is stressed within the faith.

God willing, we'll be welcoming our first child soon (most likely a daughter), and so I guess I'm a bit more concerned over these things than usual.

I hope I did not offend anyone. I look forward to your replies.

tonyfish58

UmmNoorie - Yes the Western World will have to learn the art of modesty again, we have gone past Moderation in our dress.

Bahau'llah has written in His Book of Laws the following re dress;

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas

175. The Lord hath relieved you … of the restrictions that formerly applied to clothing and to the trim of the beard. # 159

Bahá’u’lláh removed such limitations on one’s apparel and beard. He leaves such matters to the “discretion” of the individual, and at the same time calls upon the believers not to transgress the bounds of propriety and to exercise moderation in all that pertains to dress.

Page 150 - 3. Miscellaneous Exhortations: y. To be the essence of cleanliness: vi. To be stainless in one’s dress

When and how we achieve this is yet to be known. I suppose we have to teach the new generations that a small amount of clothing is not a good thing if we are to be Modest or are to take the line of Moderation.

We have to find the line between the full Muslim Dress Code and Western Undress :-)

Regards Tony

Rani

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations.

(From letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, copy of which was sent to compiler with letter dated March 8, 1981)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 364)


The seventh Glad-Tidings The choice of clothing and the cut of the beard and its dressing are left to the discretion of men. But beware, O people, lest ye make yourselves the playthings of the ignorant.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 23)


Yes, it is important to be modest. One's perception of what is modest can be subjective I imagine, and no doubt what is considered accepted dress is in part influenced by the climate in which one lives, not to mention culture.

arthra

UmmNoorie:

Welcome to the Forum!


I noticed something in regard to the dress of the women. Many were dressed very scantily (again, no offense), and I was wondering if this is seen as something rather acceptable in the faith? The men were dressed very formally (suit, tie, etc)

Modesty is a Baha'i value...however you may find some variation depending..also Baha'i Holidays are open to anyone who wishes to attend as you may know..

"In the teaching there is nothing against dancing, but the friends should remember that the standard of Bahá'u'lláh is modesty and chastity...."

From letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of India, June 30, 1952: Dawn of a New Day, p. 153)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 98)



Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations. It calls for the abandonment of a frivolous conduct, with its excessive attachment to trivial and often misdirected pleasures. It requires total abstinence from all alcoholic drinks, from opium, and from similar habit-forming drugs. It condemns the prostitution of art and of literature, the practices of nudism and of companionate marriage, infidelity in marital relationships, and all manner of promiscuity, of easy familiarity, and of sexual vices....

- Shoghi Effendi

("The Advent of Divine Justice" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 30)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 45)

Rani

Modesty is considered virtuous in the Faith, but I can easily imagine that not as much focus is placed on it as there might be in the Muslim Faith.

Admonition to be modest is there in the Writings, but I would say it's not talked about that much, because dress standard is left to the individual.

I would suggest, try not to let your faith depend this. I think and hope dress standard will change over time in the wider Community and within Baha'i circles as mankind becomes more spiritualised.

But again, what one person considers modest, might not be considered so by another.

I remember living in a cooler climate for a while, and on a very hot day, I wore a skirt somewhere above the knee. It was not scanty at all and I was well covered, but my eastener friend showed surprise at my clothing choice. Well, I come from a pretty hot climate and on hot days to wear less is considered normal. In my estimation I was dressed modestly, but it seems my friend wasn't as sure. :~

Moderation also pertains to other matters. I visited a baha'i friend once who was surveying her handbags, and she had about 5 spread out on her bed, and yet they all looked almost exactly the same. (!). Approx. five black handbags, almost all the same shape with only small variation in size. I wondered why someone needs 5 black handbags! lol

So, we can be influenced by the materialism and consumerism in society as well, but I think the baha'i way is to be content and moderate.

UmmNoorie

I appreciate all of the answers I have received so far. They all provide some good insight.


My parents are from India, where the climate varies from region to region. In certain parts, the weather is very tropical, and so the people do not cover as much. However, the men and women do practice modesty (women refrain from low cut blouses etc).

I think the Quran only gives a few guide lines as well. People are asked to lower their gaze, lengthen their garments, and the believing women are encouraged to cover their chest. Beyond that, it's pretty much up to the individual. For the most part, I've seen Baha'i women also observe these standard practices.

I definitely do agree with you that people in cooler climates tend to dress a bit more conservative, due to the fact that it is rather necessary at times. I also wear skirts and dresses from time to time, and I'm rather particular about covering areas that might attract unneeded attention. Some people find my way of dressing conservative because I don't wear anything too short or too low cut, while others find that I should be covering my head and neck as well.

Rani, your mentioning of the 5 handbags was interesting as well. I'm a little crazy about shoes, and need to practice moderation in this case.

Violet

I like that there is no hard and fast rule. I think it would be too much like cultural imperialism if there was. I think a guideline is to dress more conservative than the norm of the general society, unless of course you live in a very conservative nation like some Arab states where meeting the norm would be acceptable.

For those who are not born into a Baha’i family, I think our previous religious and cultural backgrounds play an issue too in defining what we view as modest. I was raised in a Christian background, but primary area of religious study has been Orthodox Judaism, so I would feel comfortable in shirt sleeves that covers the my upper arms and a knee length (or longer) skirt --tznius. I also do not like wearing pants. However, being Caribbean, I've seen people go to religious services in a tank tops and short skirts mainly because it’s just so, so hot.

So far this thread has focused on the ladies? What about men? Do the men generally dress formally? I've only been to study groups, not a holiday.

Arthra, Rani, and TonyFish – great quotations!

arthra

we always should be aware of the cultural norms where ever we are.. but not make ourselves say stand out that much.. As long as our attire is modest and clean.

I think it applies to both men and women..certain pronounced styles might be fashionable among a circle of people but considered inappropo to others.

Drawing attention to ourselves and/or offending some people shound be avoided.

There are also probably styles of dress that make more sense say in a hot climate..or cold climate depending.

cire perdue

The Baha'i schools sponsered by the National Spritual Assembly have required dress codes. I don't remember them except no sleeveless shirts for men or women. They are rather clear.

Generally one difficulty about judging the Faith by how Baha'is may be is that we can't go around telling each other, "Oh, that is not appropriate for the Faith!", because Baha'is are not to criticize each other, only our institutions are. I think friends may say tactful things however.

I believe I am responsible for my reaction no matter how someone else dresses, even if they are dressed to titilate. In this Faith I find fewer women who use lots of cosmetics and mostly fresh faced real ladies. It has taken decades of enlightenment in the West, but women are no longer blamed for rape and never should have been. There is NO reason for that no matter what one is wearing. Having a sexual thought is NOT a sin in my opinion, only what you do with it. The same is true for anger, and we probably "sin" more with anger than sex in that regard!