"Baha'i" Friends who Drink

greenbinder · 08-21-2012, 08:55 PM

This has been upsetting me for some time. I've got several friends who I've grown up Baha'i with who, for various reasons, have decided that it's ok to drink. Some of them try to hide it, others post photos of themselves all over Facebook with obvious drinks in their hands, while "acting" like nothing is going on.

Some have said that they still believe in the bigger principles of the Baha'i Faith but just don't agree with the social teachings. Others have distanced themselves from the Faith, but i'm sure are still on the rosters. Others are "active".

For all cases, I just get so upset because I feel like these dear friends of mine who i have grown up with have just sold out to society rather than staying strong to their faith. I went to a busy college with lots of parties, and have been around people who drink, but I have always stayed true to my beliefs and I have never had alcohol. Not even once. And it hasn't always been easy! I'd probably "fit in' in some circles better if I did drink, although to me those "circles" ended up being not that appealing anyway. But it's a challenge to go against social norms, even in a professional setting alcohol seems to run people's lives.

That is why to see friends I've grown up in the faith with suddenly decide "oh yeah unity is great but abstaining from alcohol? I don't see the point". Makes me so upset and even angry. I know each person is on their own journey but I'll be honest I feel personally hurt that my friends have chosen this path and I'm actually mad at them and disappointed in them for this. How can I just go on acting as if everything is normal when they are behaving this way and just taking "the easy way out"?

I realize i am venting but perhaps someone out there has some suggestions for how I might deal with this issue, which may just be stemming from me being judgmental.

SeventhValley · 08-22-2012, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbinder

This has been upsetting me for some time. I've got several friends who I've grown up Baha'i with who, for various reasons, have decided that it's ok to drink. Some of them try to hide it, others post photos of themselves all over Facebook with obvious drinks in their hands, while "acting" like nothing is going on.

Some have said that they still believe in the bigger principles of the Baha'i Faith but just don't agree with the social teachings. Others have distanced themselves from the Faith, but i'm sure are still on the rosters. Others are "active".

For all cases, I just get so upset because I feel like these dear friends of mine who i have grown up with have just sold out to society rather than staying strong to their faith. I went to a busy college with lots of parties, and have been around people who drink, but I have always stayed true to my beliefs and I have never had alcohol. Not even once. And it hasn't always been easy! I'd probably "fit in' in some circles better if I did drink, although to me those "circles" ended up being not that appealing anyway. But it's a challenge to go against social norms, even in a professional setting alcohol seems to run people's lives.

That is why to see friends I've grown up in the faith with suddenly decide "oh yeah unity is great but abstaining from alcohol? I don't see the point". Makes me so upset and even angry. I know each person is on their own journey but I'll be honest I feel personally hurt that my friends have chosen this path and I'm actually mad at them and disappointed in them for this. How can I just go on acting as if everything is normal when they are behaving this way and just taking "the easy way out"?

I realize i am venting but perhaps someone out there has some suggestions for how I might deal with this issue, which may just be stemming from me being judgmental.

Yea we have a member like that too; posting on facebook with drinks. I myself fall into a drink now and then as my wife is a big wine drinker and has it in the house.

We all fall down and do things not in accordance with the faith from Backbiting to getting into partisan political disscusions etc... Most of all we just need to focus on ourselfs unless someone gets really out of hand. As long as we are continually pushing forward and trying to live more and more in line with the faith I think we will be o.k.

Jak08 · 08-22-2012, 11:11 AM

As a recovering alcoholic who found the truth of Baha'u'llah in recovery I can from my point of view as clear as a brick wall see the veiling effects that intoxicants have on us in regard to our ability to commune with God. I imagine that on a smaller scale it would have the same result.

In my opinion if you believe in the truth of Baha'u'llah yet decide that some teachings aren't applicable, not only does this seem contradictory to the infallibility of the word of God, but for me reeks of a desire that is purely born of self.

However I'm not sure how I would respond to the knowledge of another individual. I know it isn't my place to say or judge that individual but keeping myself from passing judgment and tainting my view of that individual would be a test in and of itself. A chance to practice acceptance and to love all of Gods creatures and leave them to God to guide.

wombatwolf · 08-22-2012, 01:55 PM

I mean most of the social teachings, if you look at them objectively, are completely positive for health. Alcohol and drugs are bad. Don't do them. This is simple.

I've never been attracted to alcohol. I've had it once, watered down liquor and some zinfandel wine. Strongly disliked it, both times.

There are certain things that are a little harder to stomach-
for instance, the forbidding of living together before getting married strikes me as odd- especially since the definition seems to be increasingly distorted. I've heard living with someone of the opposite sex is wrong no matter what. Yet from the authoritative sources it seems rather clear that cohabitation (what is forbidden) means something more along the lines of having an extremely public or amorous relationship, and be living together (possibly already with children), yet not be married.

But we've already had two threads on that. So no more from me on that topic.

Also no sex before marriage (as a 17 year old) of course is an extremely tough sell for me. Though to be honest, as a skinny kid with low self-confidence, I'm not all that in "danger" of falling prey to those desires right now

I kid.

These things happen. None of us are perfect. Baha'u'llah refers to His law as something that will serve to bring the most benefit to the person following them, not as a "mere" code, to be followed lest punishment strike one down. Unless someone is actively doing something that brings his fellows into disrepute, then it's that person's problem if they do not desire help. They are harming themselves.

arthra · 08-22-2012, 02:25 PM

Greenbinder...

Where ever you go you're a gonna find people who for whatever reasons are deciding to do whatever it is they wanna do... You have little control over that. When things like this happen be content what your life and commend these people to God.

SeventhValley · 08-22-2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombatwolf

Also no sex before marriage (as a 17 year old) of course is an extremely tough sell for me. Though to be honest, as a skinny kid with low self-confidence, I'm not all that in "danger" of falling prey to those desires right now

Just to put it out there (and I know this from personal experience) no birth control is 100%. Every time you do the deed there is a possibility that a child will be born.

While the best thing (and in accordance with the faith) to do is abstain till marriage. If you do decide to do something don't just trust her birth control. Double up if possible by using some yourself.

LordOfGoblins · 08-22-2012, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeventhValley

Just to put it out there (and I know this from personal experience) no birth control is 100%. Every time you do the deed there is a possibility that a child will be born.

While the best thing (and in accordance with the faith) to do is abstain till marriage. If you do decide to do something don't just trust her birth control. Double up if possible by using some yourself.

err wow.
That standard is not the Bahai standard at all.
In fact that is the standard of non-existance.
Read the first verse of the Kitabe Aqdas. Recognition means obeying the laws, and they are 'inseparable' duties.

Not the first verse of the most holy book for nothing...
Obviously if people havnt read that much of the Bahai books they really should go back to square one...

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is
the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of
His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His
Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived
thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of
every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who
reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of
transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him
Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are
inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other.
Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of
Divine inspiration.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)

SeventhValley · 08-23-2012, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

err wow.
That standard is not the Bahai standard at all.
In fact that is the standard of non-existance.
Read the first verse of the Kitabe Aqdas. Recognition means obeying the laws, and they are 'inseparable' duties.

Not the first verse of the most holy book for nothing...
Obviously if people havnt read that much of the Bahai books they really should go back to square one...

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is
the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of
His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His
Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived
thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of
every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who
reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of
transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him
Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are
inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other.
Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of
Divine inspiration.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)

We have had this disscusion before in my cluster. Ultimately we teach the faith and what is in accord with the faith.(no sex before marriage)

That being said people are going to fall. When they do it is best that they have the knowledge to break that fall instead of taking it full force.

If we do not recognize reality vs the ideal we fall in fanaticism.

Quote:

Gird up the loins of your endeavor, O people of 14 Bahá, that haply the tumult of religious dissension and strife that agitateth the peoples of the earth may be stilled, that every trace of it may be completely obliterated. For the love of God, and them that serve Him, arise to aid this sublime and momentous Revelation. Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction. Consider the war that hath involved the two Nations, how both sides have renounced their possessions and their lives. How many the villages that were completely wiped out!
The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Daystar of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The One true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words. Baha'u'llah:Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

In order for people to advance they must struggle and sometimes fall we need to be there for them.

Quote:

"the people are as the human body, and determination and the will to struggle are as the soul, and a soulless body does not move."-Abdu'l Baha

LordOfGoblins · 08-23-2012, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeventhValley

We have had this disscusion before in my cluster. Ultimately we teach the faith and what is in accord with the faith.(no sex before marriage)

That being said people are going to fall. When they do it is best that they have the knowledge to break that fall instead of taking it full force.

If we do not recognize reality vs the ideal we fall in fanaticism.

wow. Its really dissapointing if that is the situation of how the faith is evolving... Thats all I can say really..

SeventhValley · 08-23-2012, 04:53 AM

Here is what Baha'is believe and teach.....

Briefly stated the Bahá'í conception of sex is based on the belief that chastity should be strictly practiced by both sexes, not only because it is in itself highly commendable ethically, but also due to its being the only way to a happy and successful marital life. Sex relationships of any form outside marriage, are not permissible therefore....

The Bahá'í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex Impulse but in its regulation and control.[4] --Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1968-1973

Here is the science that shows a grey area we need to be aware of....

From:
Religiosity and teen birth rate in the United States
Joseph M Strayhorn1,2* and Jillian C Strayhorn3

Background

The children of teen mothers have been reported to have higher rates of several unfavorable mental health outcomes. Past research suggests several possible mechanisms for an association between religiosity and teen birth rate in communities.

Methods

The present study compiled publicly accessible data on birth rates, conservative religious beliefs, income, and abortion rates in the U.S., aggregated at the state level. Data on teen birth rates and abortion originated from the Center for Disease Control; on income, from the U.S. Bureau of the Census, and on religious beliefs, from the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey carried out by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. We computed correlations and partial correlations.

Results

Increased religiosity in residents of states in the U.S. strongly predicted a higher teen birth rate, with r = 0.73 (p < 0.0005). Religiosity correlated negatively with median household income, with r = -0.66, and income correlated negatively with teen birth rate, with r = -0.63. But the correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate remained highly significant when income was controlled for via partial correlation: the partial correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate, controlling for income, was 0.53 (p < 0.0005). Abortion rate correlated negatively with religiosity, with r = -0.45, p = 0.002. However, the partial correlation between teen birth rate and religiosity remained high and significant when controlling for abortion rate (partial correlation = 0.68, p < 0.0005) and when controlling for both abortion rate and income (partial correlation = 0.54, p = 0.001).

Conclusion

With data aggregated at the state level, conservative religious beliefs strongly predict U.S. teen birth rates, in a relationship that does not appear to be the result of confounding by income or abortion rates. One possible explanation for this relationship is that teens in more religious communities may be less likely to use contraception.

SeventhValley · 08-23-2012, 05:05 AM

cont...

Quote:

The Universal House of Justice does not feel that the time has come for it to provide detailed legislation on subjects such as abortion, homosexuality and other moral issues. The principles pertaining to these issues are available in the book "Lights of Guidance" and elsewhere. In studying these principles, it should be noted that in most areas of human behaviour there are acts which are clearly contrary to the law of God and others which are clearly approved or permissible; between these there is often a grey area where it is not immediately apparent what should be done. It has been a human tendency to wish to eliminate these grey areas so that every aspect of life is clearly prescribed. A result of this tendency has been the tremendous accretion of interpretation and subsidiary legislation which has smothered the spirit of certain of the older religions. In the Baha'i Faith moderation, which is so strongly upheld by Baha'u'llah, is applied here also. Provision is made for supplementary legislation by the Universal House of Justice -- legislation which it can itself abrogate and amend as conditions change. There is also a clear pattern already established in the Sacred Scriptures, in the interpretations made by `Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, and in the decisions so far made by the Universal House of Justice, whereby an area of the application of the laws is intentionally left to the conscience of each individual believer. This is the age in which mankind must attain maturity, and one aspect of this is the assumption by individuals of the responsibility for deciding, with the assistance of consultation, their own course of action in areas which are left open by the law of God.

It should also be noted that it is neither possible nor desirable for the Universal House of Justice to set forth a set of rules covering every situation. Rather is it the task of the individual believer to determine, according to his own prayerful understanding of the Writings, precisely what his course of conduct should be in relation to situations which he encounters in his daily life. If he is to fulfil his true mission in life as a follower of the Blessed Perfection, he will pattern his life according to the Teachings. The believer cannot attain this objective merely by living according to a set of rigid regulations. When his life is oriented towards service to Baha'u'llah, and when every conscious act is performed within this frame of reference, he will not fail to achieve the true purpose of his life.

Therefore, every believer must continually study the Sacred Writings and the instructions of the beloved Guardian, striving always to attain a new and better understanding of their import to him and to his society. He should pray fervently for divine guidance, wisdom and strength to do what is pleasing to God, and to serve Him at all times and to the best of his ability.

The House of Justice feels it would not be wise for it to make a public statement on the moral issues you mention which are now being discussed widely. In such aspects of morality, the guidance that Baha'i institutions offer to mankind does not comprise a series of specific answers to these moral issues, but rather the illumination of an entirely new way of life through the renewal of spiritual values. Baha'is who are striving to teach the Faith can take advantage of the growing public disquiet about the accelerating moral breakdown throughout the world to bring to the attention of thoughtful people the fact that such problems are symptoms of a profound malaise which can be healed only through acceptance of the divine message. As Baha'u'llah states, "the people are wandering in the paths of delusion", engaging in practices which will lead inevitably to unhappiness and disorder. Inspired by the example of loving compassion set by the Master, let the believers disclose to the wayward multitudes a new mode of living which brings true liberty and abiding happiness... (On behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual, 5 June 1988)

SeventhValley · 08-23-2012, 05:08 AM

Would you let a fellow brother or sister fall without trying to catch them?

Do you turn your back on somebody the minute they fail and do something blameworthy or do you try to give them advice to get out of a bad situation?

I am not trying to be combative but these subjects do deserve a lot of thought.

Rani · 08-23-2012, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeventhValley

Just to put it out there (and I know this from personal experience) no birth control is 100%. Every time you do the deed there is a possibility that a child will be born.

While the best thing (and in accordance with the faith) to do is abstain till marriage. If you do decide to do something don't just trust her birth control. Double up if possible by using some yourself.

Another thread that has changed to the topic of chastity.. ha. So, perhaps we should go back to the original topic soon, but..

One thing that occurred to me when reading some posts, is that sometimes guys (?) seem to look at women as fair game.

Reading some of this makes me miss my first boyfriend when I was a teenager. I was 16 and 17 and he was 21 /22.

He suggested we go away for a night or two one time, but at his own instigation he arranged for a 'chaperone' in the form of a fellow-christian, (as we were then), around our age so that we always had company.

He always treated me with purity and respect. All I'm saying is that when it comes to things like sex it is not just a person's own spiritual well-being that is at play. If we want for the happiness and welfare of another person, we won't want to do something that could hurt them. (spiritually, emotionally, right?)

Sometimes I feel that too many men are reading the same mags and books when it comes to women.

SeventhValley · 08-23-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

He always treated me with purity and respect. All I'm saying is that when it comes to things like sex it is not just a person's own spiritual well-being that is at play. If we want for the happiness and welfare of another person, we won't want to do something that could hurt them. (spiritually, emotionally, right?)

Good points!

Zhang · 08-23-2012, 05:18 PM

How did we start arguing about sex? Lol! Someone really has sex on the brain

Personally, I think the drinking restriction is there because, much like in Buddhism and the other faiths, once you start drinking you get swept up in it all, and things like examining oneself daily and upholding a moral code seem very trivial. We lose sight of what's important.

I think it was Baha'u'llah that said you are either progressing or regressing, there's no in between. And in this case it is a regressive action, making oneself more prone to violence and ignorance.

What do you think?

Jak08 · 08-23-2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhang

I think it was Baha'u'llah that said you are either progressing or regressing, there's no in between. And in this case it is a regressive action, making oneself more prone to violence and ignorance.

What do you think?

I agree whole heartily, in the program we learn that unless you are making strides to progress spiritually you are actually regressing which in our case is extremely dangerous for our health. I would argue that any act explicitly born of self is not spiritual progress and even more so if you are enjoyed against something and then still do that act, which is some cases can breed shame. Shame is a powerfully negative thing that will wall you within yourself, a healthy response to the shame would be to take action in the opposite direction. Much like fear can cause a healthy response to do something about your fear, like leaving a dangerous situation for example.

These teachings from the program I have found to be completely in communion with the faith and just with living a healthy life in general.

I find Baha'u'llah's teaching on the fear of God, which I take as meaning fearing causing the displeasure of God, as a testament to this.

Quote:

Wish not for others what ye wish not for
yourselves; fear God, and be not of the prideful.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 73)

Quote:

Turn unto Him, and
fear not because of thy deeds. He, in truth, forgiveth
whomsoever He desireth as a bounty on His part; no
God is there but Him, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Bounteous.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 86)

Quote:

There is constant movement, and if the movement onward stops, a movement backward would ensue: regress would take the place of progress, and instead of the Christ's rule we would have another one: a head for an eye, all teeth for one.

(BW - Baha'i World Volumes, Volume 4, p. 475)

Iconodule · 08-24-2012, 12:41 PM

Absolutely nothing wrong with a drink so long as you don't get drunk.

BruceDLimber · 08-25-2012, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

Absolutely nothing wrong with a drink so long as you don't get drunk.

Not true according to the current Law of God.

Bruce

cire perdue · 08-26-2012, 08:21 AM

We need to remember that it is NOT an individual's job to deal with someone else's failure to live up to the laws, that is the job of the institutions. Another individual's spiritual progress is none of our business. Continuing to care for others is our business as long as they do not harm our own lives or spiritual progress.

He is The One 19 · 08-26-2012, 03:07 PM

The mere fact that this is even a debate, shows what has become of society. This was prophesized by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'Baha, that the world would indeed become so corrupt that even many Bahai's themselves, who are supposed to unite the world, would fall victim to society.

Baha'u'llah is the supreme manifestation of God for this day and age. Countless suffering and tribulations were born out of His love for us and for the sake of the uniting of the entire human race. Countless individuals were martryed, imprisoned, and were living sacrifices for the Cause.

Maybe we should obey and listen to laws and ordinances of the Blessed Beauty? How dare we question and try to compare his laws with our limited understanding? The truth is in the words and message itself.....

wombatwolf · 08-26-2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by He is The One 19

The mere fact that this is even a debate, shows what has become of society. This was prophesized by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'Baha, that the world would indeed become so corrupt that even many Bahai's themselves, who are supposed to unite the world, would fall victim to society.

Baha'u'llah is the supreme manifestation of God for this day and age. Countless suffering and tribulations were born out of His love for us and for the sake of the uniting of the entire human race. Countless individuals were martryed, imprisoned, and were living sacrifices for the Cause.

Maybe we should obey and listen to laws and ordinances of the Blessed Beauty? How dare we question and try to compare his laws with our limited understanding? The truth is in the words and message itself.....

Nobody is questioning this. It's pretty common sense when you look at the laws prescribed you can see that they are deigned to benefit humanity.

But what happens when people do not live up to the standards, because we have high standards.

I despise the day when we are not allowed to debate about things like this. "Independent investigation of truth" does not end after one declares. It's a central tenet for a reason. It pervades all things and requires us to discuss things.

SeventhValley · 08-27-2012, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombatwolf

Nobody is questioning this. It's pretty common sense when you look at the laws prescribed you can see that they are deigned to benefit humanity.

But what happens when people do not live up to the standards, because we have high standards.

I despise the day when we are not allowed to debate about things like this. "Independent investigation of truth" does not end after one declares. It's a central tenet for a reason. It pervades all things and requires us to discuss things.

Totally true.

Napkin · 08-28-2012, 05:01 PM

I used to have a problem with friends who drink, then I met friends who steal, commit fraud, and a list of far worst acts. All of a sudden friends who drink did not looks so bad

Iconodule · 08-31-2012, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Not true according to the current Law of God.

Bruce

The current law does not forbid the drinking of alcahol.

Even the quran declares you shall inherit a river a wine in paradise.

BruceDLimber · 08-31-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule

The current law does not forbid the drinking of alcahol.

Even the quran declares you shall inherit a river a wine in paradise.

In your opinion, do doubt.

But the Qur'an is well over a millenium older than the Baha'i scriptures; and they (and related works) are eminently clear about this, as well as clarifying the spritual nature of references to wine. I quote:

1171. Both Light and Strong Drinks Prohibited Unless Prescribed by a Doctor

"Regarding the use of liquor: According to the text of the Book of Aqdas, both light and strong drinks are prohibited. The reason for this prohibition is that alcohol leadeth the mind astray and causeth the weakening of the body. If alcohol were beneficial, it would have been brought into the world by the divine creation and not by the effort of man. Whatever is beneficial for man existeth in creation. Now it hath been proved and is established medically and scientifically that liquor is harmful.

"As to the meaning of that which is written in the Tablets: 'I have chosen for thee whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth', this signifieth those things which are in accordance with the divine purpose and not the things which are harmful. For instance, one of the existing things is poison. Can we say that poison must be used as it hath been created by God?
"Nevertheless, intoxicating liquor, if prescribed by a physician for the patient and if its use is absolutely necessary, then it is permissible.

"In brief, I hope that thou mayest become inebriated with the wine of the love of God, find eternal bliss and receive inexhaustible joy and happiness. All wine hath depression as an after effect, except the wine of the Love of God."
(From a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá to an individual believer, translated from the Persian: Prohibition of Intoxicating Drinks, A Compilation, April 1979)</p>

1172. In the Book of Laws it is Forbidden to Take Anything that Deranges the Mind

"With regard to your first question on alcohol and drinking, Bahá'u'lláh, fully
aware of the great misery that it brings about, prohibits it as He expressly states that everything that takes away the mind, or in other words makes one drunk, is forbidden."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 15, 1926)

1173.... "Under no circumstances should Bahá'ís drink. It is so unambiguously forbidden in the Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh that there is no excuse for them even touching it in the form of a toast, or in a burning plum pudding; in fact, in any way."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 3, 1957: Cited in a letter from the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ecuador, December 21, 1972)

(Lights of Guidance, pp. 350-351)

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Iconodule · 08-31-2012, 11:34 AM

Yet you are promised river of wines in paradise in the quran. Although its not like the quran has any sort of binding authority or Mirza Hussain either.

arthra · 08-31-2012, 02:30 PM

"Yet you are promised river of wines in paradise in the quran...."

- Iconodule

I didn't know Orthodox catechumens studied the Qur'an but maybe it's not a bad idea...

Let's look at some citations in citations in the Qur'an..

219. They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)

15. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible: rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 47)

Note the word is "parable" ... not material wine.

Wine is mentioned in Baha'i sources as an allegory not material way...

such as:

This servant of the Threshold of His Majesty the eternal God, hath always been and is in danger; there hath never been a hope for rest. The utmost of his hopes is that in the arena of martyrdom the cup of grace become replete and the wine of great bounty lend the wondrous ecstasy. This is the utmost of my hopes and desires.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 25)

If you observe that a soul has turned his face completely toward the Cause of God, his intention is centralized upon the penetration of the Word of God, he is serving the Cause day and night with utmost fidelity, no scent of selfishness is inhaled from his manners and deeds, and no trace of egotism or prejudice is seen in his personality -- nay rather is he a wanderer in the wilderness of the love of God, and one intoxicated with the wine of the knowledge of God, occupied wholly with the diffusion of the fragrances of God, and attracted to the signs of the Kingdom of God; know ye of a certainty that he is confirmed with the powers of the Kingdom, assisted by the heaven of Might; and he will shine, gleam, and sparkle like unto the morning star with the utmost brilliancy and splendor from the horizon of the everlasting gift.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 42)

Iconodule · 08-31-2012, 02:37 PM

Arthra I'm not a catechumen despite you wanting me to be one. But Catechumens wouldn't need to read literature devoid of essentials truth like the quran unless they wanted to respond to Muslims. But in either case Christ is the example and Christ like normal jews of the day drank wine.

Rani · 09-01-2012, 11:29 AM

Dear Greenbinder,

I think it is understandable that you find it quite upsetting, so don't be hard on yourself about your feelings. You're sad and disappointed about it.

I haven't been in that specific situation, so I have only few suggestions.

I wonder if you are able to say to them that it disappoints you somewhat. Naturally you would have to do this very sensitively and only you can tell if this could be appropriate, or if they would listen.

This kind of thing (public drinking) surely would hurt the reputation of the Faith, this is true. If non-baha'is see baha'is being so casual about the laws, how will they respect the Faith very well?
Baha'u'llah says, 'Obey My commandments for the love of My beauty'.

I might suggest searching out for friends who are attracted to the Baha'i way of life in this regard, -maybe they will be people from other Faiths too.

I mentioned this issue to a few baha'is in my Skype study circle the other night, and at least one or more believes that this is a case that could be taken to the LSA.

I am not suggesting that you say any names.

This is not a personal issue against individuals, but might be done only because it is affecting you, and because this could well be negatively affecting the reputation of the Faith.
Because surely the LSA is responsible for deepening the friends collectively about our responsibility to portray a baha'i way of life.

I have another idea, and I ask for no flak if possible, but I wonder if it could also be taken to an ABM for Protection. That way, especially, you would likely be assured that the ABM will have no idea who you're talking about, and he can relay it back to the LSA? Because it's the Assembly's job to deepen believers.
And how can they do anything about it, if they are not aware of it? -If an individual does not bring it to their attention?

Rani · 09-01-2012, 11:35 AM

It's interesting that I have only one baha'i friend in LA, and he mentioned to me a few yrs back that some of the young baha'is there were partying hard and drinking.

I don't believe that this is a problem across the board. I mean, I don't think that this has been a problem in the communities I've been a part of, for example. I hope that you are assured that this is not widespread.

Aquedita · 09-30-2012, 12:28 PM

Have to say, it is a tough one... Luckily I did not have to deal with such issues with my local community. On one hand you want to be supportive and including. On the other hand, we don't want someone to be detrimental to the cause. Sure, we are all human but the standards are high.

In my humble opinion the best cause of action would be this: first approach the person and ask for some explanations why they are drinking. If they are aware it is forbidden in the faith, try to present specific quotations about following laws and pray for firmness in the covenant. Should the person keeps repeating the offense and is flat out refusing to acknowledge your suggestions, you need to turn to the institutions. Either your LSA or the Auxiliary Board member for the protection of the faith, whoever you feel comfortable with. I imagine they would decide on further action upon consulting the individual again.

Naturally, you need to pray for them as well!

08-21-2012, 08:55 PM	#1
greenbinder Junior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: Los Angeles Posts: 1	"Baha'i" Friends who Drink This has been upsetting me for some time. I've got several friends who I've grown up Baha'i with who, for various reasons, have decided that it's ok to drink. Some of them try to hide it, others post photos of themselves all over Facebook with obvious drinks in their hands, while "acting" like nothing is going on. Some have said that they still believe in the bigger principles of the Baha'i Faith but just don't agree with the social teachings. Others have distanced themselves from the Faith, but i'm sure are still on the rosters. Others are "active". For all cases, I just get so upset because I feel like these dear friends of mine who i have grown up with have just sold out to society rather than staying strong to their faith. I went to a busy college with lots of parties, and have been around people who drink, but I have always stayed true to my beliefs and I have never had alcohol. Not even once. And it hasn't always been easy! I'd probably "fit in' in some circles better if I did drink, although to me those "circles" ended up being not that appealing anyway. But it's a challenge to go against social norms, even in a professional setting alcohol seems to run people's lives. That is why to see friends I've grown up in the faith with suddenly decide "oh yeah unity is great but abstaining from alcohol? I don't see the point". Makes me so upset and even angry. I know each person is on their own journey but I'll be honest I feel personally hurt that my friends have chosen this path and I'm actually mad at them and disappointed in them for this. How can I just go on acting as if everything is normal when they are behaving this way and just taking "the easy way out"? I realize i am venting but perhaps someone out there has some suggestions for how I might deal with this issue, which may just be stemming from me being judgmental.

08-23-2012, 04:53 AM	#10
SeventhValley Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: Mid Atlantic Posts: 32	Here is what Baha'is believe and teach..... Briefly stated the Bahá'í conception of sex is based on the belief that chastity should be strictly practiced by both sexes, not only because it is in itself highly commendable ethically, but also due to its being the only way to a happy and successful marital life. Sex relationships of any form outside marriage, are not permissible therefore.... The Bahá'í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex Impulse but in its regulation and control.[4] --Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1968-1973 Here is the science that shows a grey area we need to be aware of.... From: Religiosity and teen birth rate in the United States Joseph M Strayhorn1,2* and Jillian C Strayhorn3 Background The children of teen mothers have been reported to have higher rates of several unfavorable mental health outcomes. Past research suggests several possible mechanisms for an association between religiosity and teen birth rate in communities. Methods The present study compiled publicly accessible data on birth rates, conservative religious beliefs, income, and abortion rates in the U.S., aggregated at the state level. Data on teen birth rates and abortion originated from the Center for Disease Control; on income, from the U.S. Bureau of the Census, and on religious beliefs, from the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey carried out by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. We computed correlations and partial correlations. Results Increased religiosity in residents of states in the U.S. strongly predicted a higher teen birth rate, with r = 0.73 (p < 0.0005). Religiosity correlated negatively with median household income, with r = -0.66, and income correlated negatively with teen birth rate, with r = -0.63. But the correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate remained highly significant when income was controlled for via partial correlation: the partial correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate, controlling for income, was 0.53 (p < 0.0005). Abortion rate correlated negatively with religiosity, with r = -0.45, p = 0.002. However, the partial correlation between teen birth rate and religiosity remained high and significant when controlling for abortion rate (partial correlation = 0.68, p < 0.0005) and when controlling for both abortion rate and income (partial correlation = 0.54, p = 0.001). Conclusion With data aggregated at the state level, conservative religious beliefs strongly predict U.S. teen birth rates, in a relationship that does not appear to be the result of confounding by income or abortion rates. One possible explanation for this relationship is that teens in more religious communities may be less likely to use contraception. Last edited by SeventhValley; 08-23-2012 at 05:08 AM.

08-26-2012, 08:21 AM	#19
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,715	It is very important to remember! We need to remember that it is NOT an individual's job to deal with someone else's failure to live up to the laws, that is the job of the institutions. Another individual's spiritual progress is none of our business. Continuing to care for others is our business as long as they do not harm our own lives or spiritual progress.

09-01-2012, 11:29 AM	#29
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 444	Dear Greenbinder, I think it is understandable that you find it quite upsetting, so don't be hard on yourself about your feelings. You're sad and disappointed about it. I haven't been in that specific situation, so I have only few suggestions. I wonder if you are able to say to them that it disappoints you somewhat. Naturally you would have to do this very sensitively and only you can tell if this could be appropriate, or if they would listen. This kind of thing (public drinking) surely would hurt the reputation of the Faith, this is true. If non-baha'is see baha'is being so casual about the laws, how will they respect the Faith very well? Baha'u'llah says, 'Obey My commandments for the love of My beauty'. I might suggest searching out for friends who are attracted to the Baha'i way of life in this regard, -maybe they will be people from other Faiths too. I mentioned this issue to a few baha'is in my Skype study circle the other night, and at least one or more believes that this is a case that could be taken to the LSA. I am not suggesting that you say any names. This is not a personal issue against individuals, but might be done only because it is affecting you, and because this could well be negatively affecting the reputation of the Faith. Because surely the LSA is responsible for deepening the friends collectively about our responsibility to portray a baha'i way of life. I have another idea, and I ask for no flak if possible, but I wonder if it could also be taken to an ABM for Protection. That way, especially, you would likely be assured that the ABM will have no idea who you're talking about, and he can relay it back to the LSA? Because it's the Assembly's job to deepen believers. And how can they do anything about it, if they are not aware of it? -If an individual does not bring it to their attention? Last edited by Rani; 09-30-2012 at 02:55 PM.

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08-22-2012, 11:11 AM	#3
Jak08 Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: GI, Nebraska Posts: 33	As a recovering alcoholic who found the truth of Baha'u'llah in recovery I can from my point of view as clear as a brick wall see the veiling effects that intoxicants have on us in regard to our ability to commune with God. I imagine that on a smaller scale it would have the same result. In my opinion if you believe in the truth of Baha'u'llah yet decide that some teachings aren't applicable, not only does this seem contradictory to the infallibility of the word of God, but for me reeks of a desire that is purely born of self. However I'm not sure how I would respond to the knowledge of another individual. I know it isn't my place to say or judge that individual but keeping myself from passing judgment and tainting my view of that individual would be a test in and of itself. A chance to practice acceptance and to love all of Gods creatures and leave them to God to guide.

08-22-2012, 01:55 PM	#4
wombatwolf Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: Georgia Posts: 70	I mean most of the social teachings, if you look at them objectively, are completely positive for health. Alcohol and drugs are bad. Don't do them. This is simple. I've never been attracted to alcohol. I've had it once, watered down liquor and some zinfandel wine. Strongly disliked it, both times. There are certain things that are a little harder to stomach- for instance, the forbidding of living together before getting married strikes me as odd- especially since the definition seems to be increasingly distorted. I've heard living with someone of the opposite sex is wrong no matter what. Yet from the authoritative sources it seems rather clear that cohabitation (what is forbidden) means something more along the lines of having an extremely public or amorous relationship, and be living together (possibly already with children), yet not be married. But we've already had two threads on that. So no more from me on that topic. Also no sex before marriage (as a 17 year old) of course is an extremely tough sell for me. Though to be honest, as a skinny kid with low self-confidence, I'm not all that in "danger" of falling prey to those desires right now I kid. These things happen. None of us are perfect. Baha'u'llah refers to His law as something that will serve to bring the most benefit to the person following them, not as a "mere" code, to be followed lest punishment strike one down. Unless someone is actively doing something that brings his fellows into disrepute, then it's that person's problem if they do not desire help. They are harming themselves.

08-22-2012, 02:25 PM	#5
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,958	Greenbinder... Where ever you go you're a gonna find people who for whatever reasons are deciding to do whatever it is they wanna do... You have little control over that. When things like this happen be content what your life and commend these people to God.

08-23-2012, 05:08 AM	#12
SeventhValley Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: Mid Atlantic Posts: 32	Would you let a fellow brother or sister fall without trying to catch them? Do you turn your back on somebody the minute they fail and do something blameworthy or do you try to give them advice to get out of a bad situation? I am not trying to be combative but these subjects do deserve a lot of thought.

08-23-2012, 05:18 PM	#15
Zhang Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: USA Posts: 298	How did we start arguing about sex? Lol! Someone really has sex on the brain Personally, I think the drinking restriction is there because, much like in Buddhism and the other faiths, once you start drinking you get swept up in it all, and things like examining oneself daily and upholding a moral code seem very trivial. We lose sight of what's important. I think it was Baha'u'llah that said you are either progressing or regressing, there's no in between. And in this case it is a regressive action, making oneself more prone to violence and ignorance. What do you think?

08-24-2012, 12:41 PM	#17
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	Absolutely nothing wrong with a drink so long as you don't get drunk.

08-26-2012, 03:07 PM	#20
He is The One 19 Junior Member Joined: Aug 2012 From: united states Posts: 7	The mere fact that this is even a debate, shows what has become of society. This was prophesized by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'Baha, that the world would indeed become so corrupt that even many Bahai's themselves, who are supposed to unite the world, would fall victim to society. Baha'u'llah is the supreme manifestation of God for this day and age. Countless suffering and tribulations were born out of His love for us and for the sake of the uniting of the entire human race. Countless individuals were martryed, imprisoned, and were living sacrifices for the Cause. Maybe we should obey and listen to laws and ordinances of the Blessed Beauty? How dare we question and try to compare his laws with our limited understanding? The truth is in the words and message itself.....

08-28-2012, 05:01 PM	#23
Napkin Senior Member Joined: Dec 2011 From: BayTown TX Posts: 260	I used to have a problem with friends who drink, then I met friends who steal, commit fraud, and a list of far worst acts. All of a sudden friends who drink did not looks so bad

08-31-2012, 11:34 AM	#26
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	Yet you are promised river of wines in paradise in the quran. Although its not like the quran has any sort of binding authority or Mirza Hussain either.

08-31-2012, 02:30 PM	#27
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,958	"Yet you are promised river of wines in paradise in the quran...." - Iconodule I didn't know Orthodox catechumens studied the Qur'an but maybe it's not a bad idea... Let's look at some citations in citations in the Qur'an.. 219. They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider. (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2) 15. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible: rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 47) Note the word is "parable" ... not material wine. Wine is mentioned in Baha'i sources as an allegory not material way... such as: This servant of the Threshold of His Majesty the eternal God, hath always been and is in danger; there hath never been a hope for rest. The utmost of his hopes is that in the arena of martyrdom the cup of grace become replete and the wine of great bounty lend the wondrous ecstasy. This is the utmost of my hopes and desires. (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 25) If you observe that a soul has turned his face completely toward the Cause of God, his intention is centralized upon the penetration of the Word of God, he is serving the Cause day and night with utmost fidelity, no scent of selfishness is inhaled from his manners and deeds, and no trace of egotism or prejudice is seen in his personality -- nay rather is he a wanderer in the wilderness of the love of God, and one intoxicated with the wine of the knowledge of God, occupied wholly with the diffusion of the fragrances of God, and attracted to the signs of the Kingdom of God; know ye of a certainty that he is confirmed with the powers of the Kingdom, assisted by the heaven of Might; and he will shine, gleam, and sparkle like unto the morning star with the utmost brilliancy and splendor from the horizon of the everlasting gift. (Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 42)

08-31-2012, 02:37 PM	#28
Iconodule Senior Member Joined: Apr 2011 From: NZ Posts: 790	Arthra I'm not a catechumen despite you wanting me to be one. But Catechumens wouldn't need to read literature devoid of essentials truth like the quran unless they wanted to respond to Muslims. But in either case Christ is the example and Christ like normal jews of the day drank wine.

09-01-2012, 11:35 AM	#30
Rani Senior Member Joined: May 2011 From: Australia Posts: 444	It's interesting that I have only one baha'i friend in LA, and he mentioned to me a few yrs back that some of the young baha'is there were partying hard and drinking. I don't believe that this is a problem across the board. I mean, I don't think that this has been a problem in the communities I've been a part of, for example. I hope that you are assured that this is not widespread.

09-30-2012, 12:28 PM	#31
Aquedita Member Joined: Sep 2012 From: Poland Posts: 30	Have to say, it is a tough one... Luckily I did not have to deal with such issues with my local community. On one hand you want to be supportive and including. On the other hand, we don't want someone to be detrimental to the cause. Sure, we are all human but the standards are high. In my humble opinion the best cause of action would be this: first approach the person and ask for some explanations why they are drinking. If they are aware it is forbidden in the faith, try to present specific quotations about following laws and pray for firmness in the covenant. Should the person keeps repeating the offense and is flat out refusing to acknowledge your suggestions, you need to turn to the institutions. Either your LSA or the Auxiliary Board member for the protection of the faith, whoever you feel comfortable with. I imagine they would decide on further action upon consulting the individual again. Naturally, you need to pray for them as well!