Emilia

Hm, I think there would be more than a little problem with that and maintaining the principle of "independent investigation of the truth."

I'm not sure what ignoring your beliefs would do for family unity, for that matter...

I think I already mentioned my husband was agnostic for the first 18 years of our marriage, which is the time in which our children were actually...children. Obviously the kids knew he was agnostic and I sure hope they got from me that I didn't think less of Dad because he was. Undercutting my husband in any way would be a disaster for the marriage, the family, and would be teaching the kids it's ok not to respect their father. That's nowhere I would consider going.

It looks like you and your partner are thinking things through pretty well, fwiw.

Iconodule

Its not about brainwashing, its about putting the love of God in them. Or do you not think loving God is important? Is it ok to teach morality but not the source of morality? is it okay to teach science but not the creator of the world which science knows? See this is the attitude of the secular man which I find utterly evil and reprehensible that ignores God and says Christ is not worthy of the children. Besides this isn't extreme, this is the norm, your view is the extreme and the innovative in terms of history.

Iconodule

If you consider the basic truth narrowminded and unhelpful you are hte simply following the unrealistic hope that there can be compromise when there cannot.

Emilia

Considering I lived through a somewhat similar interfaith marriage as the one Ruby has referred to I hope you will forgive me if I believe my own experience over your opinion.

Iconodule

Will you allow your child to be raised in your spouses faith? I doubt it. You want them to choose your faith when they can.

LordOfGoblins

So you put the love of God into (ie your own brand of religion) rather than letting them decide for their own self.
Is that how God wants to be worshipped? Via people who are ignorant and just imitating their parents rather than these whose love springs from their own self and free will.

Iconodule

Lord of Goblins, God has commanded this in the past in the torah, so yes God does approve of this. God is to be taught naturally, to lvoe and adore and to recognise him. I will do this Lord and i will not keep the truth from them. But if you want to say that worshipping God from the begining is bad, then you make people like the prophet Samuel fundamentally lacking, despite their Godliness. I value God over secular opinoin Goblin and I hope one day you will do the same.

Fadl

LordOfGoblins

The problem with this view is it justifies anything in the name of 'teaching them to worship God'.
So if that means brow-beating them or telling them all manner of nonsense because the parents beleives that is 'truth' such as in your case, then you use that to justify your position.
So what if someones truth is that true religion is hatred of other religions?
That is your truth. You always come from the position of truth rather than fairmindedness or equal ground. Your truth is not my truth though.
I would teach children to worship God outside of personal indoctrination and interprations and that is what the Bahai faith does. Consdier these prayers...

O God! Educate these children. These children are the plants of Thine orchard, the flowers of Thy meadow, the roses of Thy garden. Let Thy rain fall upon them; let the Sun of Reality shine upon them with Thy love. Let Thy breeze refresh them in order that they may be trained, grow and develop, and appear in the utmost beauty. Thou art the Giver. Thou art the Compassionate.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

They teach children to worship and love God without telling the child they should subscribe to imitating their parents traditions.

Iconodule

It justifies putting true religion on them. Indeed Goblin, you cannot ignore that this was commanded by God in the torah and the early Christians understood this to be their perogative to their children, to raise them in the faith in that smae jewish context which was applied to Christianity over the ages.

So here is the standard which God has laid out, against the standard of Ali Nuri and his son who embraced secularism it seems. But when praying to God Lord, we have to know God is. God is not vague, otherwise you will just confuse children who will not know who God is. Thus you are forced to teach them if you want them to worship your God, your God ironically.

LordOfGoblins

LordOfGoblins

What if your true religion is teaching them to hate the Koran?

So does God want people to worship him of their own free will or out of pressure from their parents to imitate their parents traditions?
And your wrong about 'our God'. Because in that prayer there is nothing that contradicts Jesus statements in the bible. It is a universal prayer. So you think that prayer contradictions CHristianity?
Yes or no?
True religion is not telling people how to think is it?

LordOfGoblins

I see no difference in your stance from a fanatic who says brainwashes someone into killing another person because it is true religion.

Iconodule

God has displayed his will in the past many times, that people ought rear their children in the faith. You know this and you have to ignore this. As a bahai this sickens you that god woul allow such things. But true religion is teaching your children the truth of God and I can only go by my conscionce. How can I withhold Christ from my Child? I can't, the thought owuld be physically repugnent to me that I cannot treach them the truth? You will not teach your children God, who God is, tells me something about your belief, that you don't consider God worthy of your child.

Iconodule

Your thought process is so utterly retrobate, that you would compare rearing children in the faith, to systematically teahcing and making a child know how to kill and murder people?

Take in mind only islam tpyically does this as per the commands of allah and Muhammad in the Sunnah. Of which I entirely agree that these are evil teachings, but at least they are consistent with theri beliefs and will do the logical thing, even if it is immoral.

tonyfish58

As Bruce said above, Arthra did not say that.

As they are brought up with both your views then at the age of 15 they can choose if they so wish, as this is the age of maturity in the Baha'i Faith.

Hope it all works well

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

really... Funny that you say that because your hatred is exactly what you will be teahcing your children disguised as truth and love of God. But no education can cause children to grow up harming and hurting just as easily as loving. Consider if the parent is a racist and hates blacks then the child will imitate and might even get into a gang of skin heads and kill a black person. So really you are just naive and dont see the reality of forcing things onto children the harm it causes.
But you claim it comes inthe diguise of truth. That claim means nothing. The jewish preists who killed Jeses claimed it was in the diguise of truth, so you really cant use that to justify things. It is just a justification.
Go watch American history X.

LordOfGoblins

No I never said teaching them love for Jesus is wrong. That is strawman and you know it..

Iconodule

its funny that you consider me equal to that of a racist who hates black people. it is illustrative of how you think. But perhaps I might share the wider conception of islam from the main islamic schools and literature which interprets the quran. Oh but perhaps I have to teach to them western islam which has accepted actually morality and western notions otherwise IM just hateful. But Yes I claim orthodoxy as truth. I will teach them this truth as God has expected of me. Again if you object this Lord, you object to God and what he has expected of all the religions you claim to be in league with. Goblin stop this.

Iconodule

Oh but you would not want me to teach them Christ is God? But you would be allowed to say Christ is not God and that God is a unitarian entity right? OR do you expect them to know who God is without defining God for them in which case you are going to contradict hindus, Christians, muslims and everyone else. Lord you cannot possibly live to this standard you will teach them bahai and they will accept it because you are their parent. Its disengenous.

Also its sad that you can only respond by insinuating I am a racist. Good job showing that bahai tolerance.

LordOfGoblins

you will be teaching your children to hate the koran. THe racist who hates black people is just an example of how people imitate their parents in history. I really dont know you personally though. Its just for the sake of discuission to illustrate a pattern that happens time and again and how powerful education is.

LordOfGoblins

You could teach them that but you shouldnt have the false notion that indoctinating them into thinking what you think and worshipping what you worship is a valuable form of love for God in Gods eyes.
The love has to come from their own desire rather than you telling them how they should think.
Am I wrong? Does God want indoctrinating zombies worshipping him whose love is just the love their parents 'put' into them rather than the the love that comes from their own self?

LordOfGoblins

I am not the person who spent ten plus posts trying to make me admit that The koran hates Christians am I?
Whose the moderate one here?
I ask you? Who?
You or me?
That is just one example to show how education works...

Iconodule

Or maybe I will teach them Christian morality, love charity and kindness and then at a certain point let them realise the majority Islamic standard as to the scholars and most of the islamic world and they will view the texts with as much vile and disgust as I do. For instance I may just point out that Muslims consider Christians the worst of all creatures. Maybe.

But since you have to compare me to a racist, it appears that you consider me on par with a racist, perhaps because I don't accept this eccenemism, this poltiical correctness of all religions being equal and thus we cannot raise the children in one. But tell me lord, was God wrong to tell the Israelites to bring up their children in the law of God? He must have been to your understanding, therefore the Christians are wrong by extension. But I guess when Ali Nuri came God didn't care about truth.

Iconodule

you are the person who ignored the question ultimately. But I simply pointed out what the quran says and you all tried to rebut me, but I think you ultimately failed. If that makes me extremist then by golly I would hate to see a moderate in your world view.

LordOfGoblins

haha. So you admit your only purpose is to 'win' arguments...
Another thing you will be teaching your child in the disguise of 'truth'...
good stuff.

Iconodule

All i admitted is that you couldn't answere a simple question. And no, it is no disguise, if I ever have children I will teach them the truth. Lord will you teach your children that God is a unitarian God? Just asking.

LordOfGoblins

Yeh but how much love charity and morality to do you spread here?
Now its funny how you bring this up for the first time because this is not the way you present yourself in anyway previously (see the antiislam thread).
I never said you cant raise a child in a religion. It was you saying you put love of God into them and tell them what to think which I debated with.
Bahais will raise their children in the Bahai way as well, that is not the point of contention.
Now you keep avoiding my point which is should they be able to choose for themselves how they love God or is it your love for God that you put into them?
That is all I had contention with, so stop this strawman please.

Iconodule

Its misleading when you say Bahai way, as that constitutes apparently not putting in them the bahai faith. And Lord its not about them chooosing, its about them learning that god exists and is there. If you object this, then you cannot teach them anything that is true Lord. Why not let them learn EVERYTHING bythesemlvs. Why is God so taboo to teach? Why do you forbid God Lord? Thats what I want to know.

LordOfGoblins

I did answer it. The text was clear. How can I deny what the text says? But it is not inside my authority to ultimately interpret the text..
So I just gave my understanding.

Iconodule

Since you still won't declare whether CHristians are or are not the worst of all creatures, I can only but go on the vidence and say you have not answered the question. But Ironic that you derail the thread into this topic. But answer this question. Was it wrong for God tot ell the israelites torear their children in his law? God did not allow or want the israelites to have choice in this manner. Was God mistaken to do this? Like the other question I ask, you will not answer this.

Fadl

Iconodule,

This is a serious charge you have made against Islam. Would you mind citing some evidence of what you allege from the Qur'an or Hadith? Otherwise, I suggest you should not utter such calumnies here.

LordOfGoblins

i dont have the authority..

LordOfGoblins

a love and understanding of universal virtues (and prayers) and themes that are common in all religions..
But we dont 'put' in anyone anything...
and it should be about them choosing esp when the time comes and they realise you were always there to guide them rather than 'put' your brand of truths into them...

Fadl

Considering that according to Islamic belief neither Christians nor Jews are damned to hell for simply not accepting Muhammad or Islam, and that Christians and Jews have been afforded a high status and not accounted among the 'disbelievers' in the Qur'an, I find it strange for you to say this. Would you mind citing some evidence in the Qur'an or Hadith to show that this is the Islamic view of Christians? I can save you some time by assuring you that you will never find anything to support any such assertion in the Qur'an or Hadith, but if you are going to claim such things, you ought to provide evidence of it. I'm sure that you do not condone bearing false witness. Or do you?

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule [to Emilia] Will you allow your child to be raised in your spouses faith? I doubt it. You want them to choose your faith when they can.

What Baha'is want is eminently irrelevant because:

• not only are we to see that children learn about ALL the major religions (or at least, as many as possible); but
• at age 15 the child has full freedom to choose to become a Baha'i, become something else, or become nothing whatever. And the parents DO NOT have the right to interfere in this decision!

Q. E. D.

Quote:

[Baha'u'llah's] son, who embraced secularism, it seems.

Pure nonsense!

He was the very model of a Baha'i--and indeed has been considered to have been EXACTLY THAT ever since!

Bruce

Emilia

I would be pleased if they chose my faith *if they did*.

If they didn't believe it and they just went through the motions, I would be seriously displeased.

I was fully prepared at the point of our marriage for the eventuality of my husband becoming an un-lapsed Roman Catholic, and if he did that I would've been right there with him out of family unity if he wished to teach them about the Catholic faith. Yes, that would include my attending Mass and so forth, and having the kids go through catechism.

If it were otherwise I simply would not have married him.

I don't know how much you know about what Roman Catholicism requires to have a Catholic ceremony, but I have to give them credit for this much -- they frown on divorce except in rare cases, but they do a good job of preventing badly matched couples from marrying up front.

If the priest we met with for months couldn't find a reason not to marry us, like I would have a problem with the kids being involved in a Church, really that should tell you something, if you can hear it.

What you doubt is irrelevant in the face of what I actually think.

There's only a certain extent to which I might aid you in understanding that people may think very differently than you do, and I'm willing to have a go at it if you're interested. But the fact remains that people can and do think differently whether you ultimately understand or not.

I don't have a problem with Catholicism, no matter what variety. Yours included.

No, I don't agree 100% with the theology. So what? I'm not forced to practice it.

For those who do believe it 100%, I hope they follow it as well as they possibly can.

Napkin

It all depends on how fanatic your husband is. I know two people who married Bahais.

One got divorced after his wife kept giving all their money to the religion and insisted the kids be raised as Baha'is....the funny part was that this wife was a very corrupt and twisted person. She wanted to raise their kids to be just like her.

The other couple, the wife was a Baha'i but she was normal and cool. She didn't let the religion come between them at all.

So the question is how fanatic is your husband? If he's an Iranian Baha'i then you have some thinking to do. Is he forcing his beliefs on you? How fanatic are his parent? How long have you been married?

mytmouse57

I've been married twice, neither of my ex-wife or wife are Baha'i.

My ex is agnostic/atheist, cynical about religion and religious belief.

My wife is spiritual, considers herself Christian, but doesn't attend church or hold to any particular denomination.

I have two children from my first marriage, and gained three more step-children when I married the second time. None of the children are Baha'i, or particularly religious at all.

In all cases, I find it best to try leading by example, offer insight and let children decide for themselves.

As an old saying goes, "Their ears don't work, but their eyes do."

Hope that helps.

IndistinctDreamer

Blatant prejudice and racism.

As to Icon, I pray to God that your mind be freed from the veils which have been so corrupted and manipulated your mind.