Iconodule

So all the bahai here against homosexuality are wrong? Am I bigot for being against homosexuality?

Noexalt

That didn't take long. Less than a day and the discussion already degraded back to LAW (Bahai/Christian). Wow, when are we going to get past the laws and focus on the discriminition that exists? Could the continued emphasis of law be a cover for the inability to deal with prejudices?

Is the Baha'i Faith a Legalistic religion? Is there a difference between the letter of the law and it's spirit? Does the Baha'i Faith really believe in elimination of prejudices, or does it's laws override that? How about heterosexuality, aside from the "living together" argument, how many people i n your community have been met with suspicion that they might be having sex? Anyone ostracized or alienated because of it...or would that be considered too puritanical...hmmm....is there a double standard? Does the Baha'i Faith promote double standards?

How many of you have Baha'is in your community who are gay?

Are they active? Inactive?

Do they sense any subtle forms of discrimination or feel ignored in your community?

Are they out in the open or is still a secret, or a secret to some?

Have they had any bad experiences, good experiences?

Have you ever talked to them with a desire to know them more and see what you can do?

Have you ever had a community discussion on homosexuality? What was it like?

LordOfGoblins

i would focus on descrimination but i dont know any Bahai gays except for CP (you should talk to him he used to be a regular here). I would just treat them like any other person if i did know them. That being said I can recount a personal experience. There was a guy in our community who kept holding my hand in an effeminate way when he spoke to me and also held his face in very close. Apparently he wasnt gay but it was making me feal uncomfortable so after awhile when he did this I would pull my hand away. Am i descriminating against him? I dont know maybe I am.
There are all kinds of descrimination though. When you drive past and you see a man with a beard who looks worn and homeless what comes into your brain- the first thought?

Do you think "that man could be a soulful and deephearted man with some interesting life experiences behind him."

Or do you think "what a disgusting bum???"

We all have to learnh to overcome these predjudices...
I know from experience because my sister is very judgemental.

Noexalt

That situation...my personal opinion is that it was creepy, not necessarily gay. That is not common gay behavior. I've had issues like that and even though I'm gay, it's still uncomfortable. ugh.

I've talked to CP before, but I think the issue is that non-gays need to make a little more effort to come to terms with their attitudes toward gay people in the Baha'i community. To put in Baha'i speak...go into the "learning mode". There is consciousness in the Baha'i community about other minorities, but when it comes to gay people, I think people think as long as they regurgitate Baha'i Law, then their job is done.

In the Baha'i community it seems the burden is on the gay person to "change" but no responsibility on the non-gay to change...

Supposedly, when you say you are a Baha'i, you believe in all of it, not just the parts and pieces you do or don't feel comfortable with. I would think that would stand for those parts about "regarding homosexuals with prejudice and disdain" as well. Like it or not, this is issue isn't going to just disappear.

Zhang

You are a bigot for so many more reasons than one...

Word, didn't know you were gay. What are your experiences in your community? Are you also a Baha'i?

LordOfGoblins

to be honest with you the Bahais are immature in many ways. Not just this issue. I can list some things but Ill just tell you one thing.
After I got sick and depressed I left teh Bahai community. Then when I came back people looked at me like a loser. Now it was probably my own attitude as well that caused this selfimage that was negative. But there is also a small predjudice against people who are inactive as such.
People experience things in different ways. Now that my confidence is abit more I think im ok but people still give me a hardtime sometimes because I am unable to shave the beard I grew during my depression, it has sortof become my shield..
I told a Bahai once that Baha'u'llah and abdul'Baha had beards when he accused me of being a terrorist. It was said in jest I guess but it still is annoying to have that stigma. I am not a terrorist just because I have a beard...

i just realise i made the above post about my issues so id like to apolgize in advance if its not relevent...

Mireille

Hey everyone,

Since Noexalt asked, I thought I'd try to answer those questions.

I don't know. I've been inactive in the community for the past 15 years, ever since I realized I am gay.

I used to be a very active member of my community. Participated in local and national committees, was an ABM assistant, took part in every conference, summer school, teaching campaign and gathering conceivable... When I started dealing with my sexuality, I had to distance myself from that. I continued to be a Bahá'í, but by myself, to put it that way.

I can't say that I have felt any form of discrimination towards me, because I never really came out to any Bahá'ís I knew. But having been a part of the community for so long, I never felt comfortable revealing this particular part of who I am to any of my Bahá'í friends. It might be that I am underestimating them, and that if I did come out publicly, nothing would change. Truth is I never had the guts to do it. Thinking about it now that I really want to find my way back to the community...

Think I dealt with that one in the question before

No experiences. Wait... that is not entirely accurate. Although my bahá'í friends don't know, my bahá'í family does. With my immediate family it wasn't easy at first, but that had little to do with the Faith. It was more the usual drama that follows the realization that you have a gay child. I consider myself lucky to have such an amazing family, though. They did struggle at first with the news, but that never tainted the great relationship we had, and now I think it brought us even closer together.
As for my extended family, to their credit, even though I know of the difficulty they must have experienced to overcome their prejudices, they did so and with my entire family the subject is always treated naturally now. To my knowledge, it became a non-issue.

I wish I had met other gay bahá'ís.

Nothing different from every discussion I see online when the topic is homosexuality. gays need help to overcome this spiritual handicap, and so on...

Noexalt

Huh, what? This was news? Yea, Baha'i and gay. It's a pain in the a** and not the good kind either.

My frustration is the double-standard on behavior from Baha'is, the obsession with Baha'i Law, The Persio-centric "There are no gay people in Iran" mentality carrying over in the Baha'i community. The denial, denial, denial, denial of any issues of prejudice/disdain that exist in the Baha'i community. The assumption that "overcome" means to change the orientation, especially when the whole reparitive therapy "industry" is founded on hoodoo and psuedo-science. This horrible (no expletive gives it justice) attitude that anyone, as long as they are not gay, can give a talk about homosexuality but as soon as someone says that they are gay, their credibility is lost - does this make sense? Then, I just love how straight people say they would do everything in their power to change if they were gay, um, duh, what do you think we were doing when we first realized it? It doesn't work you dolt.
And then, I just love how straight people like to talk about chastity and celibacy for gay people when not only could they not do it themselves, THEY HAVEN'T DONE IT AT ALL!!! It's really amazing.

Can you tell I'm a little frustrated?..Surely it's completely my problem.

Noexalt

MIREILL!!!

AWESOME!!

Okay, everybody read her post, or I'm gonna knock every one of you out. See, pure crap, a gay person does not feel comfortable in the Baha'i community. This is crap. No excuses.

Pretty Sad, it's a loss for the Baha'i community.

"I used to be a very active member of my community. Participated in local and national committees, was an ABM assistant, took part in every conference, summer school, teaching campaign and gathering conceivable... When I started dealing with my sexuality, I had to distance myself from that. I continued to be a Bahá'í, but by myself, to put it that way."

People wanna sit back and talk about Baha'i Law instead of facing reality. Ugh. It's amazing.

Noexalt

I think some Baha'is feel that when they come to Baha'i functions everything has to be this perfect, pure, spiritual experience, so they deny the seeming imperfections any recognition. What they don't realize is that they ignore people and reality in the process. This only negates the pure spiritual experience they are seeking. We like appearances in the Baha'i community much more than we like reality and substance. We like station and rank, suits and speakers.


If you ever get a chance to attend a BNASAA conference, it's probably the only place you will ever remotely experience the reality of life in the Baha'i community. So many won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Yes, there have been Baha'is there with AIDS, who are gay, suffered abuse at the hands of their parents and others. I think BNASAA exists because our communities refuse to deal with these issues at all. Try bringing up such issues at Feast...HA!

Magi728

Ponder many things are forbidden in Material Law, Which does not excuse Us from loving our fellowman.

For it is also forbidden to have any sexual relations before marriage. Therefor the homosexual, would not be breaking anymore laws, than anyone else. Who have subjected them self, to any other form of sin.

Therefor don't judge the Baha'i faith, But judge thyself, for any act that is forbidden.


1 John 4:10

Herein is Love, not that we loved God... but.... that He Loved Us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


Magi.......

Magi728

Look always at the good and not at the bad. If a man has ten good qualities and one bad one, look at the ten and forget the one. And if a man has ten bad qualities and one good one, to look at the one and forget the ten.



Abdu'l-Baha.......

Noexalt

That would be fair except that everyone else can get married. The homosexual is required to live their whole life of chastity and celibacy which is a requirement more than "anyone else" could most likely uphold. And if that is transgressed, sanctions can be dealt, which is not the same as a heterosexual couple who may only garner suspicion if they decide to cohabitate. Yes, that may be the Law, but there are other laws, like not having long hair, and not having heterosexual sex, but I don't see anyone acting the same way towards them.

It's not the Faith I am judging, it is the split between the Bahai teachings and the culture of the community. If I should overlook the faults of others, then they can overlook mine as well and stop the suspicous downward-looking orientation.

Itena

Good quote.

We should all strive to be loving souls who don't judge others based on their personal choices.

I am so sorry to all gay baha'is who didn't feel welcomed and supported in their communities. This is not what the Faith is about.


The thing is that when this topic is brought up, many Baha'is will assume that the law itself is being questioned. Which is something that cannot change. And so the law will be defended and the Covenant will as well.

We must all remember to be patient with each other, as everyone is following their own paths, and for some that road will be longer and filled with many twists and obstacles. Indeed, there will inevitably be Baha'is who will hold prejudices or denial or enmity in their hearts.

Noexalt

Yeap, Law and Covenant. Men having hair below the ears is in the Aqdas which is applicable to all, but no one says poop about it. Anyone want to take that on to a Native American Baha'i tribe? Probably not.

But it's quite fine to be as Draconian about the law on homosexuality as possible, and excuse any prejudicial behaviors as maturity issues.

Honestly, I think the UHJ has the power not to change, but suspend laws if they want. You never know.

Magi728

Yes The Beauty of Progressive Revelation...is that it is Progressive.

I Agree about being fair.

Material Laws are subject to Change, With the Tides of Time, When Progressive.


I Say * Follow your Heart. *


With love,


Magi.......

Zhang

I never questioned whether you were straight or gay because frankly, it doesn't matter

Wow just wow. What bigotry, what ignorance. The only two Baha'is I have met in real life were very kind, but...just wow.

My personal favorite: "Should anyone intentionally burn a house by fire, him also shall ye burn". And yet, still no command about homosexuality?

Give that arson quote to Shoghi and he will interpret it to mean gas stoves are against divine will. (They weren't created that way they just became gas stoves over time, of course)

Noexalt

Yea, so that's what my main message is. Why is there such concern over what I may (or may not) be doing in my bedroom, or what I choose to do with my personal life, when there is zero attempt at addressing the issues of prejudice and discrimination, including subtle forms in the Baha'i community?


O SON OF BEING!
How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I think the Baha'i community needs to do their own Fearless Moral Inventory and re-evaluate what's important. Already I think many have called "BS" on the inclusive, non-prejudice, reputation of the Baha'i community just on the grounds of the issue of homosexuality alone.

I am reminded of this quote from Stephen Colbert.
http://catholicmoraltheology.com/wp-...ian-Nation.jpg

At some point we may want to think about that and re-discover Baha'u'llah, and then ask ourselves if we really want to do what He said.

Rani

I think my Community has about 65 adults. I would think there aren't any gays. Forgive my ignorance; this is a sincere question: What percentage of the gay population are men? I believe there is only one single man in my community, (I know he's heterosexual) and I'd say there's no gay females here.

However when I was in a larger community, I found myself in a discussion with someone about a man who had left the Faith. This person told me they heard from someone that he was gay, but had left for other theological reasons. I don't know if he was gay for sure, but I had always admired him as intelligent and dedicated. And had thought to try to match him up with a lady I'd met. (not knowing).

If I did meet a baha'i who was gay I'd like to offer them my support and friendship if they wanted it. I imagine it would be tremendously difficult to deal with, and some or many (you'd probably say 'all'?) will feel that they cannot change their orientation. Personally I understand that.
They should feel that they can be themselves and should be welcomed and loved as anyone should, and should not experience any more scrutiny or hard looks than say their heterosexual counterparts.

I'm heterosexual and have been celibate for a long time and I agree it kinda sucks. I wouldn't agree that it is necessarily easy for all heterosexuals to marry though. It might appear that way to you, and I agree that it is easier /much easier -but not easy at all.
Through my own folly, but in a spirit of serving the Faith I moved to a place where there are almost no single baha'is of the opposite sex.. There are also many more of my own sex than the opposite, and the whole chastity issue seems very difficult when dating a non-baha'i or non-religious person. In fact I'd say that about 99% of men in my region treat the idea of chastity with disdain. So I usually don't bother to date here.
And I met someone recently, and there he is putting the 'hard word' (pressure) on me on the 3rd or 4th date. It's difficult.

But this is just to say that there are circumstances in which heterosexuals cannot find someone to marry. What about in war?? Many men do not come back and the ladies are left to spend the rest of their days taking care of the children themselves and being celibate.

I've had a couple of experiences where baha'i friends have confided to me that they were sleeping with someone. I wouldn't go to an Institution about it, and I wouldn't if they had been homosexual either. Just as I wouldn't if someone was still struggling with having a glass of wine in private. It's a personal struggle in that case. I think it's only when someone is trying to advocate any of these things as a legitimate baha'i lifestyle that there's a problem. Hope I haven't offended, but thanks for listening.

Zhang

Well props to you for not giving in.

Noexalt

Great post Rani, I really appreciate your fullness and honesty. This is great.
You know, it seems the burden of chastity is always on the female. What if that paradigm changed? I think the Baha'i community could be on the cutting edge of this, having men's chastity conferences, learning how to respect women's boundaries, etc, all in realizing the EQUALITY of women and men. Wouldn't that be something? I know some Christian groups have tried this, but I don't know how effective it's been , and I sure don't know how effective it would be in the Baha'i community either.

Itena

If I understand that law with the hair correctly, Shoghi Effendi had stated that the UHJ will clarify and apply it in the future, so it's not a law that's being enforced yet, as far as I know. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, on the note of Baha'i prejudices, I have not actually seen such behavior within my community. I'm sure if it were to be a large enough issue, that it would be addressed. So I'm not suggesting we ignore the issue if there were one. At the same time though, I think prejudice is a maturity issue, as is all the imperfections of man and his veils.

Itena

Actually, Noexalt. Can I ask what kind of behaviour you have observed? And perhaps what you want to see changed/improved upon? I'd be very interested in listening to your concerns, though I am only a young Baha'i individual.

LordOfGoblins

my beard is my strength and power. If i shave it off I will become weak and deficient..

Iconodule

Well regaurding your false pretensions as to know whether I am a Bigot. Are you even bahai?

AdrianDavila

I'd like to take the temperature here if you don't mind.

How many of you have Baha'is in your community who are gay?

We do. We have one person...ME.

Are they active? Inactive?

I'm active in my little community of about 6 people...There are not many of us out here in West Texas.

Do they sense any subtle forms of discrimination or feel ignored in your community?

Somewhat...In the sense that it is not really open for discussion...It's almost like "if it's not talked about, it doesn't exist." It can be pretty frustrating at times.

Are they out in the open or is still a secret, or a secret to some?

I'm out.

Have they had any bad experiences, good experiences?

Generally my experiences have been positive.

Have you ever talked to them with a desire to know them more and see what you can do?

Just some inner dialogues with myself. LOL

Have you ever had a community discussion on homosexuality? What was it like?

No. I don't my community is ready for anything like that.

Noexalt

Itena,

There are subtleties and there are blatant acts.

I think the first thing the Baha'i community can do is recognize that there are gay people in the Baha'i community. So, I've experience a denial of reality.
Once that is done, then I think the proper posture is to take the learning mode and discover what life is like for the gay Baha'i. I've experienced almost an avoidance or non-interest in the subject matter.
The non-gay should get off the obsession with Baha'i Law on the matter. People break Baha'i Law everyday. (Shall we do a poll on non-married, non-gay sexual activity in the Baha'i community?) This "Baha'i Law" argument is becoming the shield, excuse, fortress of solitude that keeps the community from acknowledging the issues of homosexuality. We've all read the writings on homosexuality 100times to the point of recitation by memory, so why you think we don't know about this is rather interesting.
Stop reciting Kitab-i-heresay. There is nothing on the writings about putting us all on an island somewhere.
Stop making false associations. We are not child molesters, or rapists, or unable to control ourselves.
Consider the fact, that you just might be homophobic or heterosexist.
There is no need for you to personally confront gay bahais about being gay. It's none of your business, and not your concern.

Inclusion:

I noticed that sometimes "The guys" wanna get together at someone's house for the game, etc, true, I don't like sports, but you could still invite me. What's that about?

If I mention the fact that I'm gay, or tell a story about some situation I was in, why does everyone go silent? You know this already right? This isn't some shocking news...

Take time to get to know your gay Baha'i brothers and sisters. They have some interesting things to say about equality of the sexes, prejudices, and equality in general.

Once again, the laws. Everytime someone mentions Baha'i Law we get a sense of "otherness", like we are not quite really Baha'is since there is a Baha'i Law forbidding homosexuality. Then the conversation evolves into talk about voting rights, flagrancy, "handicap", and the covenant. Wow. You sure know how to make a guy feel at home. Need you repeat what we have already read 1000x ? Usually when people talk about gay Baha'is they talk about Baha'is that have left the Faith because they are gay. As if this is some natural assumption, that if you are gay, then that's why you left the Faith, or you left the Faith because you are gay. Could they have left the Faith because the Baha'i community was not understanding, not inclusive but rather cold? (ex: Mireille). Could it be that the Baha'i community has faults that would make someone leave, aside from the fact that they are gay?

Itena, if what you say is true about the Hair law, then this raises an interesting question. Could the Baha'i law against gay marriage be suspended at some time? This doesn't change the law, just makes it non-applicable at a certain time.

However, I thought once the Aqdas was out that was it. I also heard something similar about Alcohol as it applies to Russia, but I can't be certain if that's Kitab-i-Heresay or not.

Magi728

How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.


Beautiful Point.

Therein lies the Difference. Between The Words of a Divine Prophet, and the followers understanding of those Words.




Magi....... Remember Noexalt ... Love Never Fails