changstur07

I have a question about the importance of unity and if unity should be foregone in specific special circumstances..

1. My girlfriend (also a Baha'i) was close friends (sexual) with a Baha'i guy in New York before getting together with me (I'm from Los Angeles). She didn't think it meant anything to him but he was super upset when he found out we were courting and she didn't tell him. Now he's taking it out on me. I want her to cut him off but he says we should speak to him and work things out. Which is more important? Unity, or cutting the bastard(sorry) off. He's always going to be jealous so it wouldn't be real unity anyway

2. Is my girlfriend irresponsible and would she be a good mother/Wife?

3. My family and friends don't approve of her because of her sexual experiences/past. But I love her. This may mean disconnection from the family... I am not sure which is more important or if they will get over it?

Timothy248

1. Let him say what he has to say out of respect, but if that doesn't resolve the issues you just gotta ignore him and give him the hard truth; "dude, your girlfriends with me now, its her choice, you have to let her go for your own sake aswell".

2. This could be an issue, how bad is she? If she's cheated on boyfriends in the past or is a nymphomaniac I would be cautious.

3. I'm no Baha'i expert, having only been involved in it for a month or so, but I read that approval of the parents and family unity is important, their are exceptions but is she really worth it? She seems to come with a lot of baggage, they're probably giving you good advice.

Emilia

I'm a little confused about why you would need to play a role in working things out. Unless you were duplicitous and lured her away from him or something, isn't that something the two of them need to work out one way or another?

If I were in your shoes honestly I don't know what I would do other than communicate to the other guy, "I'm sorry you are hurt, but I am not the one that hurt you, and I don't think there's anything I can do to help, is there? If he kept coming at me, I would probably cut off his access to communicate with me.

People make mistakes. Young people especially make mistakes. Oh, I have made some mistakes. LOL

Sometimes people repeat the same mistake a lot until they finally figure it out, and then stop making that mistake. She might be a perfectly good wife and mother...if she learns from her mistakes. Doesn't it seem to be a bit too soon to tell?

I am not in your situation obviously, but it does sort of strike me as odd that she seems to maybe need you as backup with this other guy. I would be asking her (diplomatically) why that is so (if it is).

I mean if she hurt the guy because she didn't communicate well, wouldn't the obvious and first thing to do would be she apologizes to the other guy for her behaviour and acknowledges whatever errors she's made? *confused* Isn't that something only she can do?

One of the best ways a person can show they learned something is to stand up, alone, and face the proverbial music and try to make amends as best as possible. She doesn't need you as a prop. (She might need a bit of encouragement from you that she can do this though. Admitting faults is not always an easy thing to do.)

How long have you and your family known her?

Take your time. If she's learned, your family may eventually come around.

My husband and I knew each other nearly 4 years before we married. There's no deadline here.

As a mother I can understand an early reaction of caution, in the interest of not seeing my child harmed later on.

While my daughter's boyfriend is a super nice guy, responsible, hard-working, and has many other good traits, don't think I don't have my concerns about the fact that he is from an alcoholic family and drinks also. Not to excess, but I've seen the downhill slide into abuse enough times to not want to see my daughter risk being involved in that.

If they asked for permission to marry today I would not give it.

And yet her bf is welcome in our house anytime, and if he needs help he should call us and we will do what we can. He is a super cool guy, and even if at some point they break up, he would be very welcome here.

Your family may have valid concern for you. If anything, it may be the time for you to acknowledge to them that you understand their concerns and are being mindful of them. It could reduce tension on all sides.

Napkin

Dude....your girlfriend cheated on her man with you.....if history repeats itself....and it does...she'll be doing what she did to him, to you! Does she make a good mother/wife? Heck no! my 2 cents, have your fun, don't get too close emotionally, use a condom.

Unless you've known her for a year and know everything about her, then what you call love is actually just attraction. Times have changed baby. Man's gotta be careful these days

Jak08

Having an interesting past myself and taking the liberty of taking some presumptions. Some people at various times have sexual friends (i'm using this term instead of the standard colloquial term due to it's vulgar nature) where there is no (at least this is the idea) emotional relationship between you. Now if I had had one of those relationships and then proceeded to have an actual healthy relationship usually a heads up to your sexual friend is expected but if it didn't happen I don't think anyone who has been in a similar situation would call it "cheating".

Now if this other male was under the guise that it a healthy potential long term relationship and those understandings weren't expressed clearly then your just dealing with some bad communication.

Anyway back to the main topic.

How much distance is between you? Am I to assume this guy is still in New York and your and your Girl Friend are in Los Angelos? His main intention with a meetup could very well be situated on trying to win her back instead of actually clearing the air. Perhaps write a letter and allow time to heal this wound?

Without knowing your girlfriend I don't think I know near enough to decide if she is irresponsible and certainly not if she would be a good mother/wife.

I would let the relationship run its course if after a respectable amount of time and with enough opportunities for your family to get to know your girl friend better and vice versa then this question might need revisited.

I hope I was some help.

changstur07

Yes I was duplicitous and lured her away from him. What to do?

Yeah my family knows her, and they know briefly she has been sexual before, but not the full extent(quite a lot). Should I just say the full extent?
Should I be completely honest with my family or keep our secrets safe?
They may regret giving me consent but to tell them everything is maybe unwise..

@Emilia, four years is quite a lot. I was thinking a year or two... hmm.

valrezza

Just my two cents, unity is important and if the New york man is someone that was important to her then you should make peace.

Or at least pray and meditate....... (if you dont want her to contact the New York man)

Rani

Dear Changstur07, Truly, I think the extent of the history of her sexual r'ships, whether it be minor or not, really has nothing to do with your family, imho.
I would not dream of reporting on my partner (if I had one)'s sexual history or lack thereof to my family, even if he was a virgin.
Perhaps it is a shock to you, and that is why you feel to discuss it with them? Maybe just discuss it with a friend instead.

I think if you care for her you will not want her to feel humiliated in front of your family. Even in the Aqdas, I am sure it is written that if a woman upon marriage is found to not be a virgin then it is better to conceal the matter. (Which I think should apply to men as well!). Forgive me but it seems like a double standard, as both sexes are asked to be chaste!).
- Back to the matter, it really is up to whether you feel comfortable with her and whether you can accept or understand the reasons as to why she got involved in the past.

Character is important, but I think a person's personal striving to do the right thing and purity of intent and maybe remorse for wrong doing as well, is more telling than whether they had sex one time or 10. (am not asking for details of course.. we don't need to know).
I think it's really up to you and whether you think she is a good person who is sincere.

Baha'u'llah says to 'choose one who is pleasing to thee'. And before you make a decision the family has no right of interference. All you need when you have made your decision is the consent of your parents.

[/QUOTE]
Should I be completely honest with my family or keep our secrets safe?
They may regret giving me consent but to tell them everything is maybe unwise..

@Emilia, four years is quite a lot. I was thinking a year or two... hmm.[/QUOTE]

Changstur, I'm fearing that you are worrying about what others do too much..You don't need to follow a set time period. As long as it's according to Baha'i law, it's okay (for baha'is). And as far as I know there is no special time requirement for dating, but we are to get to know the character of the other. It sounds like you know her reasonably well.
Heck, I've heard about a baha'i meeting and marrying someone within two weeks. I'm not advocating that myself.. Just saying that to wait 4 or 5 yrs could be quite a strain for a young couple. And I don't believe that you have to make it years. -personally speaking.
You should do what is right for you.

Rani

In my mind it's pretty simple. He has a right to ask her out /express interest in her, and so do you. There hasn't been a marriage yet.

It is really up to her it seems and who she chooses to date. Hopefully she knows her own mind well enough to know the answer to this.

I think what is called for for all parties is the knowing of oneself and what is right for them, and courtesy and total honesty.

light upon light

I hope that you and your girlfriend are living up the Bahá'í teachings on chastity (basically don't spend time alone together in private, holding hands is as far as you should go physically). I think she should completely avoid her previous sex partner, as the two of them were violating the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh.

She was certainly irresponsible in the past. It is a very big red flag. Is she extremely remorseful over her previous unmarried sexual involvement? Is she praying for forgiveness, healing, and chastity? Is her behavior now living up to the standards of Bahá'u'lláh? I would want to see evidence of all of that before considering marrying her (and if you are not going to marry her, you need to move on from this relationship).

Your family is wanting what is best for you -- chastity and a marriage with a wife who has a good character.

Look, God gives us all the opportunity to make good and bad decisions and to live with the consequences. The consequences of making a bad decision about who to marry and of how to behave leading into that marriage can be incredibly difficult to bear. I speak from direct personal experience here.

I will pray for you and your girlfriend to guide you both aright.

smaneck

Where do the Baha'i Teachings say anything about spending time alone together?

I think you may be getting some of this stuff from Pilgrim's Notes, which as you know are not authoritative.

light upon light

Thanks for the correction. It was from a Pilgrim's Note. My apologies.

Rani

Just a note:.. I think even the Pilgrim's note in question doesn't say anything about not spending time alone together right?
I thought it was just about kissing, etc.

For me I certainly wouldn't feel at all comfortable marrying someone I hadn't spent time alone together with. Just my thoughts..

light upon light

The prohibition on kissing is more than a Pilgrim's note:

"What Bahá'u'lláh means by chastity certainly does not include the kissing that goes on in modern society. It is detrimental to the morals of young people, and often leads them to go too far, or arouses appetites which they cannot perhaps at the time satisfy legitimately through marriage, and the suppression of which is a strain on them."

"The Bahá'í standard is very high, more particularly when compared with the thoroughly rotten morals of the present world. But this standard of ours will produce healthier, happier, nobler people, and induce stabler marriages."

- (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 19, 1947)

Further elaboration here:

"The pilgrim's note reports the Master as saying: 'Women and men must not
embrace each other when not married, or not about to be married. They must not kiss each other... If they wish to greet each other, or comfort each other, they may take each other by the hand.' In a letter to an individual written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi it is said: 'The Master's words to ..., which you quoted, can certainly be taken as the true spirit of the teachings on the subject of sex. We must strive to achieve this exalted standard.' (October 19, 1947)"

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, February 10, 1974)

So the standard of "holding hands" as the limit of Baha'i chastity for the unmarried is reasonably well established.


Regarding whether unmarried people of the opposite sex should spend time alone in private -- such as in one of their apartments together alone -- my personal opinion is that will make it very difficult to maintain chastity for most single young people. That is not to suggest a dinner date or a walk together is the same thing. But I have not been able to find a reference to that in the writings so I apologize for misstating it as a Baha'i teaching.

In my personal opinion, the entire category of "boyfriend / girlfriend" simply does not work in the context of acceptable Baha'i social practices. Baha'is should be single, engaged (and a very short engagement too!) or married and "dating" should be entirely about investigating one another's character and suitability for a marriage together and not about behaving the way society at large does.

I know the Baha'i teachings on chastity are completely at odds with society today. I also know from personal experience and from extremely well corroborated academic research on marital stability that they are the best way to maximize our chances of long-term happiness in a permanent marriage (which is unbelievably important for our children!) And that finding a partner who also respects chastity is incredibly important for anyone who cares more about the Faith than any other thing.

My own opinion is that, for single, unmarried Baha'i youth, the willingness to go to the mat for chastity (and for eschewing alcohol and drugs) is the key test for determining whether or not one is going to serve Bahá'u'lláh or self.

cire perdue

It is interesting to note that you are concerned about unity. Unity is that important. However the matter really hinges on basic teachings about relationships and chastity. I would encourage you to back up in this relationship and be at a seeking stage rather than a ready to get married stage which is what you sound like (may not be). Take the time to get to know her and for her to know you. She is on the rebound isn't she? I would not want to be chosen under those circumstances, though it can feel really powerful to be chosen that way. You are being influenced by her which is normal, but you need to be clear for yourself. Having your parents against this is a red flag for a Baha'i. I did not marry someone because her parents were against it. IT turned out to be the right thing. It really hurt to end it however.