Lunitik

I am currently reading this.

What are others thoughts on this matter? It is an intriguing concept to me, but I do not know what else to make of it really. Honestly, I am not even sure what the seventh angel is, unless they are discussing the seven letters, but this doesn't jive with what I have read about this topic.

arthra

Thanks for sharing that.. I hadn't been aware of this before, but it's specualtive. I wonder if there could be other figures that could also be considerd. There have been people especially in the early twentieth century who assigned very high station to Abdul-Baha and as He is describing this as an interpretation of what the seventh angel means I somehow doubt though He would be referring to Himself..

CK9

Hi, Just noticed this thread and thought I would chime in as I wrote that paper. Needless to say it's just an interpretation by a single believer, so obviously not something to be overly concerned with, but I thought it was interesting enough to get out there.

It's been a year now and after re-reading it, it still makes sense to me and I don't see any errors in the logic, but I'd be more than happy to hear the views / feedback of others.

Lunitik

Oh wow, heh

I think it is interesting because Muslims for instance believe they are awaiting a tall figure, and you quote someone that met Abdu'l Baha and had this quality. I believe there is also Christian prophecy that says this person will take a single wife and Baha'u'llah had 3. It certainly justifies further thought, things like Baha'u'llah saying Abdu'l Baha is his vicar also seem to drive this home.

I honestly don't know what to think of this, really. I'm not even sure what this assertion would really change in the larger picture.

CK9

Honestly I don't think it changes anything. I'm autistic so often develop intense interest in subjects that are extremely narrow in scope; in terms of the big picture I don't think this is important at all. There are several quotes, for example in the Kitab-i-Iqan, that present the idea of 'angelhood' as a station attainable by any soul who strives daily to align their life with the high standards of the Faith; in that sense, it's a confirmation that Abdu'l-Baha was an angel, albeit an extraordinarily special one. The big picture I think is still the same, i.e. that we are extremely lucky to have His example, to have stories of His love for all, and to have a large repository of His beautiful words and counsels, and to have photos of His peaceful, kind, compassionate countenance and His loving smile.

Lunitik

Well, thank you anyway for the read! It is interesting you state you are autistic, however, since I have always seen autistics as distant and un-engaging. As such, I suppose I had assumed it would be difficult to even attain a level of spirituality based on anothers words - even if the words are divinely inspired. Clearly this is extremely flawed, and you are very well spoken!

BruceDLimber

Hi!

If you're referring to the Book of Revelation, you should visit this site:

http:Bahá'í Library Online

and in the "Books" section, look for Riggs' The Apocalypse: An Exegesis.

It contains a verse-by-verse interpretation of the entire book, including the seven angels!

Peace, and good hunting! :-)

Bruce

CK9

Yes that's a very common perception; it's actually a spectrum disorder, so there is a wide range in terms of severity.

Bruce, I'm familiar with Rigg's work, it's very interesting and I enjoyed reading it.
The chapter pertaining to Revelation 16 and the seventh angel is here for anyone interested: - Apocalypse Unsealed: chapter 16

My honest opinion on his interpretation of Revelation 16 is that it's chronologically out of order. Abdu'l-Baha wrote: -

‘The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of `Abdull’áh peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One.’

I believe this is extremely helpful in our reading of Revelation as it helps us to place a timeline on the various events it describes. In the paper I wrote: -

'As the ’sixth angel’ is described as appearing after the first woe (Rev 9:12-13), and the ’seventh angel’ is described as appearing after the third woe (Rev 11:14-15), a basic chronology can be proposed:
(i) first to fifth angels,
(ii) appearance of Prophet Muhammed,
(iii) sixth angel,
(iv) appearance of the Báb,
(v) appearance of Bahá’u’lláh,
(vi) seventh angel.'

Rigg's on the other hand places all seven angels as appearing during and after the "earthly sojourns of the Bab and Baha'u'llah". I don't think this is consistent with what Abdu'l-Baha said about the three Woes being associated with three Manifestations; Revelation for example suggests the sixth angel came after the first woe (Prophet Muhammed), but before the second woe (The Bab), which would suggest that only the seventh angel is associated with the period after the birth of the Baha'i Faith.

Either way, I think it's a very interesting topic for individual investigation of the truth. Abdu'l-Baha's exegesis of other chapters of the Book of Revelation are astonishing, and provide us with an opportunity to apply those same exegetical principles to other, previously "sealed", portions of The Bible.

Lunitik

A very interesting analysis, however, based on my understanding of Riggs' book, I understand things a little differently. For me, the three woes are Muhammad, Bab, and Baha'u'llah since they cause people to question their faith - prior to this, it is quite simple to follow Christianity because there are limited laws, what Muhammad presents is quite rigid conversely, and while Baha'u'llah has presented a less strict set of rules and consequences, they are still called to accept everything prior.

Riggs asserts that the seven angels are:
Sabaean; Unknown
Jewish; Moses
Hindu; Krishna
Zoroastrian; Zoroaster (Zarathustra)
Buddhist; Gautama Buddha
Christian; Jesus Christ
Muslim; Muhammad

I would be interested in discovering why you map a different order of chronology? Currently, I am thinking perhaps you didn't correlate the angels and Manifestations? Perhaps you didn't realize Muhammad was both the 7th angel and first woe? Remember, it is a woe for Christianity, this doesn't mean it must be a woe for man. Thus, by this understanding, the 7 did come before Bab - and thus Baha'u'llah, and as such corroborates Riggs' timeline.

That being said, I do recall wondering whether Baha'u'llah is definitely the personage presented on the throne. I recall, upon first reading, thinking this must have been a new person, rechecking again, then just accepting that it must not have been and moving on. Your assertion is interesting in this regard since Abdu'l Baha could be said to be sat on the throne through the power of Baha'u'llah - the Glory of God. Based on Riggs' writing, and your assertions, I would still not suggest that Abdu'l Baha is the 7th angel, since the letter to the 7th angels followers states something along the lines of "you are corrupt but do not even know it". For me, this fits best with them due to the general allegiance to the Caliphate. He is certainly not one of the woes, but he could be the one sat on the throne of Baha'u'llah.

I would accept this based on him being Baha'u'llahs "vicar", him being the Center of the Covenant - to me, this seems striking since usually it is the revealer that upholds the covenant, but Baha'u'llah seems to assign this to Abdu'l Baha instead. The assertion that Abdu'l Baha is of the same nature as Baha'u'llah is also interesting. Due to his role, he was also capable of correcting his father if he is actually the inspirer of the words, in an official capacity. This is further backed up when Baha'u'llah says that denying his son is to deny him. Abdu'l Baha also matches closer to at least 2 prophecies which I already brought up. I also think the correlations to the trinity are easily made, it is strange that the Son is whom Christians seem to draw towards. Bab - the Gate - could easily be correlated to the Holy Spirit in the Baha'i understanding, since it is the Holy Spirit who provides the gate between God and the Manifestation, as a ray of light from the Sun.

This being said, nothing is really changed for Baha'is either way since the writings are still upheld, and the laws confirmed.

CK9

I'm with you on this, and it's consistent with what Abdu'l-Baha said in this quote: -

‘The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of `Abdull’áh peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One.’ - Abdu'l-Baha

Consider this quote from Abdu'l-Baha in Some Answered Questions: -

"The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets–in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed;"

It's interesting to recall that Abdu'l-Baha spoke these words whilst still a prisoner, and just a couple of years before undertaking His world teaching campaign. In the Book of Revelation Chapter 16 we also find that the Seventh Angel would "pour out His vial into the air" (Rev 16:17), after which there would "fall upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." (Rev 16:21) Abdu'l-Baha explained that this event referred to World War I: -

"We are on the eve of the Battle of Armageddon referred to in the sixteenth chapter of Revelation. The time is two years hence, when only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe. The social unrest in all countries, the growing religious scepticism antecedent to the millennium, and already here, will set aflame the whole of Europe as is prophesied in the Book of Daniel and in the Book (Revelation) of John. By 1917 kingdoms will fall and cataclysms will rock the earth" - Abdu'l-Baha

Therefore we have (a) the indication that the seventh angel would appear after the 3rd woe (Baha'u'llah) (Rev 11:14-15), and (b) the indication that the seventh angel would appear shortly before World War I. This is a very narrow timeframe which correlates precisely with the Ministry of Abdu'l-Baha.

There were three other reasons I also suggested for why the Seventh Angel matches Abdu'l-Baha's description: the association between the Seventh Angel and the Book of the Testament (Kitab-i-Ahd), the "heavenly attributes, qualities, and character" of the Seventh Angel, and the association with Teaching the Baha'i Faith and the "raising of voices".

Lunitik

Certainly very very interesting, it seems he is indeed describing thoughts relating to his release. He also states the claims will be diffused, thus this is prior to him taking the name Abdu'l Baha in protest of such claims. We also see a prophecy quite clearly that came true.

Perhaps the name change also signifies a new man? Perhaps, prior to taking the name, under his name of birth, he is eluding to after this name change, thus explaining why he is discussing himself seemingly.

I cannot help drawing ties between the birth of Abdu'l Baha and the day the Bab declared. The Badi Calendar is upheld by Baha'u'llah, and starts at his sons birth. I think I read somewhere that Muhammad or Jesus was able to talk from birth, it seems strange, but I keep coming back to the idea that perhaps Abdu'l Baha was the person dictating everything. It is also interesting the words he describes Shoghi Effendi with - Shoghi was related to both Bab and Baha'u'llah, he says of Shoghi "Verily, that child is born and is alive and from him will appear wondrous things that thou wilt hear of in the future" and then says "Thou shalt behold him endowed with the most perfect appearance" - the latter certainly doesn't refer to physical appearance. Perhaps this is telling us as Shoghi ties the two together physically, Abdu'l Baha ties them spiritually, and we are to make this connection through Shoghi?

As I have already said, however, this only cements Abdu'l Baha as our model Baha'i. I think it is up to the individual to decide what to make of this. Do you have further reading on the matter per chance?

LordOfGoblins

I heard about this a long time ago and I remember reading abit on.
Out of curiousity. Is it ever established who the previous ones were?

tonyfish58

He affirmed time and again that He was a "herald of peace and reconciliation," "an advocate of the oneness of humanity," and an agent calling humanity to the "Kingdom of God."16 Despite the receptivity and acclaim given Him, `Abdu'l-Bahá made clear the Source of His thought and His true station. In a letter to His followers in America He wrote:

My name is `Abdu'l-Bahá [literally, Servant of Baha]. My qualification is `Abdu'l-Bahá. My reality is `Abdu'l-Bahá. My praise is `Abdu'l-Bahá. Thraldom to the Blessed Perfection [Bahá'u'lláh] is my glorious and refulgent diadem, and servitude to all the human race my perpetual religion... No name, no title, no mention, no commendation have I, nor will ever have, except `Abdu'l-Bahá. This is my longing. This is my greatest yearning. This is my eternal life. This is my everlasting glory.

Abdu'l-Bahá's unique station in religious history. In the words of Bahá'u'lláh Himself, `Abdu'l-Bahá was the "Trust of God," "a shelter for all mankind," "the most great Favor," and God's "ancient and immutable Mystery."7 The Bahá'í writings further affirm that "in the person of `Abdu'l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized

Bahá'u'lláh prevented schism and established an unassailable foundation for His Faith through the provision of His will and testament, entitled "The Book of My Covenant." He wrote: "When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hast branched from this Ancient Root. The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch [`Abdu'l-Bahá].

Bahá'u'lláh's appointment of `Abdu'l-Bahá as His successor was the means for diffusing His message of hope and universal peace to all corners of the world, for realizing the essential unity of all peoples. In referring to `Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'u'lláh wrote: "The glory of God rest upon Thee, and upon whosoever serveth Thee and circleth around Thee. Woe, great woe, betide him that opposeth and injureth Thee. Well is it with him that sweareth fealty to Thee.`Abdu'l-Bahá was, in short, the Center of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant --the instrument for ensuring the unity of the Bahá'í community and preserving the integrity of Bahá'u'lláh's teachings