Baha'i and Homosexuality?

Joanna · 01-28-2011, 04:00 PM

I've friends who are gay (men and women) and also some that are transgendered. I have always believed that God loves everybody regardless of their sexual orientation or gender.

I have been reading a bit about the way that Baha'i teachings view homosexuality. I only found a few things about this, so I do not have all the info yet. However, I realized that Baha'i teachings say that same sex couples would not be able to get married.

Would Baha'i as a religion accept homosexual Baha'is? What I mean is, if a person is gay and wants to be a Baha'i, would that be OK? Would they be accepted and cared for in a Baha'i community of worshippers? And does God love LGBT people according to Baha'i teachings?

I am sorry if this seems like a pretty basic question, but I really want to know more about this to understand how the faith relates to the differing sexual orientations.

Thanks for your understanding

Livindesert · 01-28-2011, 04:30 PM

Here is a recent letter on the subject.

Quote:

January 3, 2011
To the American Bahá’í community
Dearest Baháʹí Friends,
The National Spiritual Assembly understands that homosexuality is a subject of particular interest and concern to many in this country and is, therefore, moved to share with you a letter dated October 27, 2010, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice on this topic. A copy of the letter—addressed to an American Bahá’í—was received by our Assembly, and the Supreme Body has kindly granted us permission to share it with you:
...With respect to your question concerning the position Bahá’ís are to take regarding homosexuality and civil rights, we have been asked to convey the following.
The purpose of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is the realization of the organic unity of the entire human race, and Bahá’ís are enjoined to eliminate from their lives all forms of prejudice and to manifest respect towards all. Therefore, to regard those with a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain would be against the spirit of the Faith. Furthermore, a Bahá’í is exhorted to be “an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression”, and it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated.
At the same time, you are no doubt aware of the relevant teachings of the Faith that govern the personal conduct of Bahá’ís. The Bahá’í Writings state that marriage is a union between a man and a woman and that sexual relations are restricted to a couple who are married to each other. Other passages from the Writings state that the practice of homosexuality is not permitted. The teachings of Bahá’u’lláh on personal morality are binding on Bahá’ís, who strive, as best they can, to live up to the high standards He has established.
In attempting to reconcile what may appear to be conflicting obligations, it is important to understand that the Bahá’í community does not seek to impose its values on others, nor does it pass judgment on others on the basis of its own moral standards. It does not see itself as one among competing social groups and organizations, each vying to establish its particular social agenda. In working for social justice, Bahá’ís must inevitably distinguish
between those dimensions of public issues that are in keeping with the Bahá’í Teachings, which they can actively support, and those that are not, which they would neither promote nor necessarily oppose. In connection with issues of concern to homosexuals, the former would be freedom from discrimination and the latter the opportunity for civil marriage. Such distinctions are unavoidable when addressing any social issue. For example, Bahá’ís actively work for the establishment of world peace but, in the process, do not engage in partisan political activities directed against particular governments.
We felt it important that the friends have access to this guidance from the House of Justice, and trust that you will find it helpful.
With loving Baháʹí greetings,

Joanna · 01-28-2011, 04:51 PM

Thank you for that post. So this means roughly that Baha'i is not against homosexuals as people but does not necessarily support gay marriage, if I understand this correctly?

I will come back again and read this when I am more awake :P but thanks for your answers

you've been very helpful

Sen McGlinn · 01-29-2011, 12:19 AM

The UHJ writes:

"..it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated.."

If the state law denies the status and privileges of marriage to same-sex couples, it is discrimination. Marriage gives, for example, inheritance rights, the right to visit one's partner in hospital or prison, the possibility of adopting children, and tax breaks (for which there is the quid pro quo that the marriage partner is liable to support his/her partner) and so forth. These are not trivial. Not to mention the question of dignity and recognition.

MacGyver · 01-29-2011, 01:11 AM

Lets not go indirect and from another way or anything. Homosexuality is clearly "condemned" in the Baha'i Scriptures.

As human beings, those inflicted with this "mental disorder" are supposed to be given respect, love and basic rights (among which getting proper psychotropic treatment is one). Adopting children by such individuals is totally insane because in no condition should a person who is to receive so much mental as well as spiritual attention (and going through such ailments) can be trusted to bring up a child in the proper way.

Baha'u'llah in his Writings have condemned homosexuality in the strongest of terms! So let us not fool ourselves. I might not sound emotionally correct, but thats because I'm putting things at you just as it is. Not everything is just the way we would like it to be. But then there are divine reasons for it ... and that is why we have rules - to control out recklessness due to being in a sphere beyond which we cannot see.

In any condition ... look below:

Taken from the Lights of Guidance:

1221. Acts of Immorality

"Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history, is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex. Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays.

"We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view.

"The thing people need to meet this type of trouble, as well as every other type, is greater spiritual understanding and stability; and of course we Bahá'ís believe that ultimately this can only be given to mankind through the Teachings of the Manifestation of God for this Day."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 21, 1954)

------------------------

1225. The Question Should Not Be if a Practicing Homosexual Can Be a Bahá'í, But as Such Can He Overcome His Problem Through the Teachings

"Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Thus Bahá'í law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

"Thus, it should not be so much a matter of whether a practicing homosexual can be a Bahá'í as whether, having become a Bahá'í, the homosexual can overcome his problem through knowledge of the teachings and reliance on Bahá'u'lláh."

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 14, 1973)

1230. Homosexuality, Immorality and Adultery Are Forbidden in the Faith

"The question of how to deal with homosexuals is a very difficult one. Homosexuality is forbidden in the Bahá'í Faith by Bahá'u'lláh; so, for that matter, are immorality and adultery. If one is going to start imposing heavy sanctions on people who are the victims of this abnormality, however repulsive it may be to

___________________
+F1 (Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 106, 1982 U.S. edition)

----------

1229. A Homosexual Relationship Subverts the Purpose of Human Life

"There should be real incentive for you to courageously face the problems inherent in the situation you describe in your letter, and to firmly resolve to change your way of life. But you must desire to do so. Both you and your Bahá'í friend must first recognize that a homosexual relationship subverts the purpose of human life and that determined effort to overcome the wayward tendencies which promote this practice which, like other sexual vices, is so abhorrent; the Creator of all mankind will help you both to return to a path that leads to true happiness."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, August 23, 1982)

----------

There are more. The UHJ is just very kind and compassionate (not to mention aware of the current wayward situation of this planet where being strict might just hinder some weak souls to break into pieces). In any condition, the writings are quite strict, while Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi have been strict aswell. UHJ is strict too, but they keep everyones spiritual levels into their consideration (how much a person can take - unfortunately for some, the amount they can take is limited in a crazy way!).

Happy reading!

Lunitik · 01-29-2011, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGyver

It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays.

Your own quote disagrees with your overall tone here.

Yes, as a Baha'i, we believe this to be a mental issue, one for which help should be sought. This is because our spiritual self does not have a gender, and thus it is entirely possible that we might fall in love with someone of the same sex. This goes against natural law, however, there is absolutely no point to a man and another man falling in love other than for selfish passions.

Your own quote suggests we should provide assistance to homosexuals in seeking a correct mind. Sex serves a single natural purpose, it allows us to reproduce - and in doing so, it creates further spirits that can love God. Outside of this aim - which marriage provides the necessary commitments for - there are two purposes: one is selfish and meaningless desire, the other is a deeper connection with the other party. During my life, I have experienced both, and find little fault in either. I do, however, at this point in my life, question the rationale of either without the desire for offspring. I suppose this is the foundation for accepting such rules in the Baha'i Faith as, throughout my life, I have been quite promiscuous.

As for whether a gay couple can adopt, I find no direct statements in the Baha'i writings to outlaw this. I find no fault, personally, in raising a child in a loving home. Certainly, there are plenty of straight homes that lack anything resembling love - not to mention all the children up for adoption that otherwise might not have found a home at all.

Unity involves the removal of all prejudice, the acceptance of everyone. Obviously there are issues with a gay or lesbian within the Faith, but outside the Faith we have no grounds to judge at all. Even within the faith, we must only attempt to assist such people.

Joanna · 01-29-2011, 02:50 AM

OK thank you for the comments and answers.

I also wanted to know whether God loves Gays. Does Bahaullah mention this anywhere in his writings? I mean, that God's love encompasses everybody, regardless of their sexual orientation?

MacGyver · 01-29-2011, 05:18 AM

@Lunitik:

Your whole answer is rather rambling. Why should my "tone" disagree with my quotes? Infact all I wrote was that the Baha'i faith condemns Homosexuality. This is very explicitly indicated in the Holy Writings - I just don't believe in the hide and seek games, because I believe in following the Words of God regardless what I feel or think like. Because if I had to live on my terms there was no reason to get involved in worshiping a Higher Knowledge who knows better and have set rules. Following religion is also adhering to some rules which shape a way of life.

My own quote does suggest that we must come forward to aid those who suffer from this ailment. I also said the same thing ... as Baha'u'llah Condemns homosexuality he doesn't condemn those who suffer from it. You can condemn HIV/AIDS as a disease, but not the person who is inflicted.

I don't know where you found my tone not in accordance with my quotes. Or maybe you looked too hard to find the conflicts? I suggest you don't do that, rather try to see the moral of the story. The moral of the story is that I'm just putting it straight as it is - no gimmik there. Because we don't need such stuff.

Soul has no gender... where did you come up with this is also a big question. However for arguments sake even if I take this for granted, when the scriptures say that it regresses the soul to be involved in such "restricted/banned" activities by the faith ... then it does tell us a lot about how such activities directly harm the soul.

I don't know how sexually promiscuous you have been ... and I had no intention to judge you on that. Its between you and God ... but that doesn't add up to your experience of enlightenment to me. It just tells me that you somehow feel in a better position to look at life beyond the Laws of God. But let me tell you, there is nothing beyond the Faith if you are in it. Life began from nothingness when the first man put his belief in the Bab. That was the point the world was born, and this is the world you preferred to be a part of. To look into the world outside and try to justify things on their merit is nothing but pushing yourself into the realms of confusion.

I recommend you read deeper into the Faith. You will find that such a regressive attitude of a couple involved in something so Un-Permitted in the faith will obviously throw a negative impact on a child. There is no meaning of letting a child (in his/her tender, formative and other stages of life) into a mess which is not only mentaly by spiritually IN A BIG PROBLEM. You don't plant a rose in toxic field and believe that oneday it will blossom in its full radiance. This is nothing but common sense. First cure the toxic field, bring out the fertile and healthy soil in it - then you go ahead planting whatever good tree and it will give fruits aswell. Otherwise ... you plant something in toxic and after a period of time it will be a part of that toxic waste (not only die - which is again, common sense).

My words are hard. I know ... ! They might not sound like honey, and might not be politically correct. But they are in accordance with the writings, in short, and quite straight.

I did not find anything which conflicts with the quotations I've made. If there are such words, please show then with points.

If you mean "acceptable nowadays" to be something we must accept aswell. Then I guess you as desperately wrong mate! Many things can be acceptable at many periods of time, which are certainly not acceptable ways in our Faith. Free sex maybe acceptable in USA but its not the acceptable way in our Faith ... just for example. Still is a couple thinks its their way of life ... then they are fooling themselves in making their own laws and thinking that God must be OK with it.

@Joanna: I'm sorry but there are explicit writings available. The best approach would be to read the Lights of Guidance or the Book's Authored by Baha'u'llah Himself. Unless the explanation is provided by Abdul Baha, no other explanation exist and there is no scope for anyone else to give you a GIMMIK explanation for that.

As for the adoption of children by gays you might bring ... which I said is common sense. This again you might refer to the House of Justice to be more sure. But then, the basic truth is quite obvious.

Lunitik · 01-29-2011, 05:26 AM

@MacGyver - For me, if religion becomes the reason for hostility, there is even less purpose for it than in its purpose as a guiding light.

The way I read your reply was quite hostile, and while *overall* I agree with your statement, this is not the manner I believe Baha'is are taught to approach such topics. Look at examples pertaining to alcohol abuse, and the kind directing we are told to convey towards seeking help. Is alcoholism and homosexuality really so different? Both stunt our spiritual growth and both are forbidden.

As for why I state the spirit lacks gender or sexuality, I believe I have read it explicitly, however it is certainly inferred. What purpose is gender in the spiritual world? It is a function of the flesh, but serves a purpose for God in creating new spirits, thus within certain conditions outlined in the scriptures it is even considered a blessing.

MacGyver · 01-29-2011, 07:05 AM

@Lunitik: Yeah I believe that religion is better off without being hostile. I am not trying to be hostile to you, its just the concept of being a "flexible" when it comes to definite and explicit laws against which I am reasonably hostile. As a Baha'i, I have all good feelings for you. Lets not confuse the focus of where my hostility is projected. We always need to be hostile against dirt in a reasonable manner to remove it from our garment! Dirt are sometimes very tough to remove, for that we need a different degree of hostility. However, its never to hurt the garment.

Do you get what I am saying by my paragraph above my friend? Lets chill, if you consider me a friend, and I also do the same ... we will find many words not make negative impacts on each other anymore, and things can become more smooth (i.e. lets have a more friendly mental setup).

I like to be straight cut. Put things straight just as they are. We cannot infer on many things when its been explained (inferred) only by Abdul Baha. However, when its written that "you don't steal even an apple from the tree of your neighbor", we can logically infer that it means you cant steal even the chicken of your neighbor. It doesn't matter if chicken belongs to a higher and different status of life! The spirit of BANNING applies there in the same way.

Although Alcohol abuse (infact even serving or drinking) is also banned ... but it cannot be aligned with homosexuality. These are two very separate subjects, even though both of them are banned. You may find many things common, but eventually they are totally different aspects. Homosexuality is one aspect which is the point of great condemnation as well. Not only since Baha'u'llah, but since all those who carrying forward the Abrahamic religions. Its an entire history. Beyond that also in Buddhism (which due to taking part in a research I believe is also an Abrahamic religion, born in India ... but in any condition it has the same things).

About soul having no "gender". Let me tell you that I have nothing on it. But I know that soulmates exist in Baha'i Faith ... of a truly devoted and chaste (sex after marriage only, among a couple ... in whatever range of excitement or fun whatever you call it, is totally chaste) couple. If that is the case, in the spirit world there might be ways to distinct. Or they unite into one ... matters of such great philosophy! The Philosophy of the soul started since Adam, continued to Baha'u'llah, and will continue forever ... the journey to learn the truth of the soul is as eternal as the journey to reach God (Perfection). We cannot really come across and give a final word (that is, reach one of the ends, the last corner in one dimension) on the soul. Better to say that its a matter of after-life, and all we can do to help it is written to us time after time!

MY FRIEND ... Sooth! ...

... No attack intended. I love you! ... and I'm not gay

Lunitik · 01-29-2011, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGyver

@Lunitik: Yeah I believe that religion is better off without being hostile. I am not trying to be hostile to you, its just the concept of being a "flexible" when it comes to definite and explicit laws against which I am reasonably hostile. As a Baha'i, I have all good feelings for you. Lets not confuse the focus of where my hostility is projected. We always need to be hostile against dirt in a reasonable manner to remove it from our garment! Dirt are sometimes very tough to remove, for that we need a different degree of hostility. However, its never to hurt the garment.

Do you get what I am saying by my paragraph above my friend? Lets chill, if you consider me a friend, and I also do the same ... we will find many words not make negative impacts on each other anymore, and things can become more smooth (i.e. lets have a more friendly mental setup).

I like to be straight cut. Put things straight just as they are. We cannot infer on many things when its been explained (inferred) only by Abdul Baha. However, when its written that "you don't steal even an apple from the tree of your neighbor", we can logically infer that it means you cant steal even the chicken of your neighbor. It doesn't matter if chicken belongs to a higher and different status of life! The spirit of BANNING applies there in the same way.

Although Alcohol abuse (infact even serving or drinking) is also banned ... but it cannot be aligned with homosexuality. These are two very separate subjects, even though both of them are banned. You may find many things common, but eventually they are totally different aspects. Homosexuality is one aspect which is the point of great condemnation as well. Not only since Baha'u'llah, but since all those who carrying forward the Abrahamic religions. Its an entire history. Beyond that also in Buddhism (which due to taking part in a research I believe is also an Abrahamic religion, born in India ... but in any condition it has the same things).

About soul having no "gender". Let me tell you that I have nothing on it. But I know that soulmates exist in Baha'i Faith ... of a truly devoted and chaste (sex after marriage only, among a couple ... in whatever range of excitement or fun whatever you call it, is totally chaste) couple. If that is the case, in the spirit world there might be ways to distinct. Or they unite into one ... matters of such great philosophy! The Philosophy of the soul started since Adam, continued to Baha'u'llah, and will continue forever ... the journey to learn the truth of the soul is as eternal as the journey to reach God (Perfection). We cannot really come across and give a final word (that is, reach one of the ends, the last corner in one dimension) on the soul. Better to say that its a matter of after-life, and all we can do to help it is written to us time after time!

MY FRIEND ... Sooth! ...

... No attack intended. I love you! ... and I'm not gay

Oh, I am not saying you are directing hostility at myself, I am simply pointing out that your stance is unnecessary. For the record, I too am not gay, however as Baha'is we cannot have any prejudice. In Some Answered Questions, Abdu'l Baha explicitly states that gay people are welcome to the faith provided they uphold our laws - to this end, they would not marry, and would not engage in homosexual activity. He simply states that some people are not intended to have children.

A homosexuals plight is not so different from a single straight persons, however. They share the same necessity for chasteness, they have exactly the same obligations in all other aspects, they simply cannot marry.

MacGyver · 01-29-2011, 07:52 AM

Thats what I am saying ... they simply cannot marry and they simply cannot get involved in any form of homosexual activity. They must uphold all our laws ... eventually they don't remain homosexual anymore (if they are not doing it).

The plight of the homosexual is different from the straight (normal/natural) person though, thats what I feel. But yes, they need chasteness (but ours include sexual activity with our wife in the CHASTENESS), yep they have all obligations. They simply cannot marry or act homosexually, plus they definitely need to seek spiritual and medical (psychological) help to get out of this condition of theirs. This is also a point which cannot be missed.

If you read Abdul Baha and also other word's of his and the word's of Baha'u'llah together, you will realize that yes, as I also said, those who are afflicted with a disease are not to be treated in a bad way or prejudiced way. But we stand against the disease! ... not the diseased!

arthra · 01-29-2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna

OK thank you for the comments and answers.

I also wanted to know whether God loves Gays. Does Bahaullah mention this anywhere in his writings? I mean, that God's love encompasses everybody, regardless of their sexual orientation?

The Kitab-i-Aqdas is theonly reference specifically to homosexuality I am aware of but see the following:

But it is clear from the teaching of Bahá'u'lláh that homosexuality is not a condition to which a person should be reconciled, but is a distortion of his or her nature which should be controlled and overcome. This may require a hard struggle, but so also can be the struggle of a heterosexual person to control his or her desires. The exercise of self-control in this, as in so very many other aspects of life, has a beneficial effect on the progress of the soul. It should, moreover, be borne in mind that although to be married is highly desirable, and Bahá'u'lláh has strongly recommended it, it is not the central purpose of life. If a person has to wait a considerable period before finding a spouse, or if ultimately, he or she must remain single, it does not mean that he or she is thereby unable to fulfil his or her life's purpose.

(From a letter dated 6 February 1973 written by the Universal House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, published in "Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1968-1973", pp. 110-11)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 58)

God's love is probably more often cited in the Baha'i Writings than in the scriptures of any previous dispensation. And theree's not enoughg space to fill with all the citations!

O DWELLERS IN THE CITY OF LOVE!

Mortal blasts have beset the everlasting candle, and the beauty of the celestial Youth is veiled in the darkness of dust. The chief of the monarchs of love is wronged by the people of tyranny and the dove of holiness lies prisoned in the talons of owls. The dwellers in the pavilion of glory and the celestial concourse bewail and lament, while ye repose in the realm of negligence, and esteem yourselves as of the true friends. How vain are your imaginings!

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

Joanna · 01-29-2011, 02:43 PM

Thanks everybody for your answers! I am starting to see a pattern here very similar to what many of my fellow Christians believe and follow: love the sinner, hate the sin.

In this case the "sinner" would be the homosexual person and the "sin" would be the homosexuality in itself.

I get it, that's how many Christians also think!

Thanks for telling me what's going on in this topic! It's good to know some views on this and to hear the Baha'i teachings on this. It's not that very different from the other world religions views on this subject.

Cheers,

Joanna

LarryK32 · 01-30-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna

Thanks everybody for your answers! I am starting to see a pattern here very similar to what many of my fellow Christians believe and follow: love the sinner, hate the sin.

In this case the "sinner" would be the homosexual person and the "sin" would be the homosexuality in itself.

I get it, that's how many Christians also think!

Thanks for telling me what's going on in this topic! It's good to know some views on this and to hear the Baha'i teachings on this. It's not that very different from the other world religions views on this subject.

Cheers,

Joanna

Whoa... You live near Christians that act like Christians? O_o

Lucky... XP

Orthodox · 01-30-2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryK32

Whoa... You live near Christians that act like Christians? O_o

Lucky... XP

A Christian isn't necessarily perfect or what we call a saint, often the Christian is a sinner and the cure for that sin? Is God, the church and the sacraments.

MacGyver · 01-31-2011, 02:56 AM

No ... we don't live among Christians or Muslims and act as them.

The author of all these Books is the same... God. So the author has a fixed code of morals. He changes laws from time to time, but the basic Religious, moral concepts only extends and broadens ... deepens the understanding of man. Strengthens the love.

Many things are supposed to be common. Its a common sense (the author is the same). It doesn't mean we are acting alike ... it only means that upstairs its the same Boss operating

... with a new project ofcourse, according to the time ... but the same goal of salvation ... perfection (an eternal journey ... as Perfection is God - a huge word this perfection ... a very huge word).

Orthodox · 01-31-2011, 04:42 PM

Mac that simply isn't true, the concept of all these books, the Bible, the Quran, the Bagavad gita, the Bahai writings do not correspond to each other or directly relate. They often contradict each other especially on who God is.

Livindesert · 02-01-2011, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Mac that simply isn't true, the concept of all these books, the Bible, the Quran, the Bagavad gita, the Bahai writings do not correspond to each other or directly relate. They often contradict each other especially on who God is.

I went to a Baha'i devotional where we meditated using passages from Buddhist sutras and the Bagava gita

There is also a Baha'i interfaith devotional near by where Hindus and Baha'is pray together.We have also had Muslims attend. We even had a real life "Orthodox" who was a evangelical Christian who came to one to show us the error of our ways LoL

The spirit is the same but outward appearances, words, terms are different depending on which dispensation they came from much how a doctor uses different medicines to treat different illness.

Livindesert · 02-01-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnbvl

They plagiarized from other religions like what has been going on since the dawn of organized religion.

LoL

Nice to meet you mnbvl

BruceDLimber · 02-02-2011, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livindesert

I went to a Baha'i devotional where we meditated using passages from Buddhist sutras and the Bagava gita.... There is also a Baha'i interfaith devotional near by where Hindus and Baha'is pray together.We have also had Muslims attend.

We even had a real life "Orthodox" who was a evangelical Christian who came to one to show us the error of our ways.

And what was the outcome of the latter conversation?

Regards, :-)

Bruce

Livindesert · 02-02-2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

And what was the outcome of the latter conversation?

Regards, :-)

Bruce

He tried to convert us on two seperate occasions, we remained Baha'is he remained Christian although his Buddhist friend who actually found us first became a Baha'i and is now one of our most active members.

Orthodox · 02-02-2011, 01:33 PM

Orthodox =/= Evangelical

BruceDLimber · 02-03-2011, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livindesert

He tried to convert us on two seperate occasions, we remained Baha'is he remained Christian although his Buddhist friend who actually found us first became a Baha'i and is now one of our most active members.

WONDERFUL; thanks! :-) :-)

Bruce

kimkey · 02-08-2011, 06:59 AM

I have a question about the Baha'i faith as it relates to homosexuality. The original writings don't really address this issue from what I am understand. It alludes to Men having sex with boys - a completely different subject. The ruling the faith follows comes from an interpretation. Do I have this correct? I am new to this forum so please excuse my ignorance on this subject. Thank you to all who reply.

Livindesert · 02-08-2011, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimkey

I have a question about the Baha'i faith as it relates to homosexuality. The original writings don't really address this issue from what I am understand. It alludes to Men having sex with boys - a completely different subject. The ruling the faith follows comes from an interpretation. Do I have this correct? I am new to this forum so please excuse my ignorance on this subject. Thank you to all who reply.

The interpretation came from Shoghi Effendi( from a letter wrote from his behalf) and the UHJ from what I know is not allowed to change his rulings.
Pederasty is what is referred to in the Aqdas but from what I have read(I could be wrong) back when the Aqdas was written their was no clear line between homosexuality and pederasty like their is today. To refer to one was to include the other. This is just what I have found and I could very well be wrong.

Livindesert · 02-08-2011, 08:39 AM

From wikipedia

Quote:

In pre-modern Islam there was a "widespread conviction that beardless youths possessed a temptation to adult men as a whole, and not merely to a small minority of deviants."[42]

In central Asia the practice is reputed to have long been widespread, and remains a part of the culture, as exemplified by the proverb, Women for breeding, boys for pleasure, but melons for sheer delight.[43] In the Ottoman Empire culture, young male dancers, usually cross-dressed in feminine attire, were called Köçek.
Youth conversing with suitors
Miniature illustration from the Haft Awrang of Jami, in the story A Father Advises his Son About Love. Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.

In post-Islamic Persia, where, as Louis Crompton claims, "boy love flourished spectacularly", art and literature also made frequent use of the pederastic topos. These celebrate the love of the wine boy, as do the paintings and drawings of artists such as Reza Abbasi (1565 – 1635). Western travelers reported that at Abbas' court (some time between 1627 and 1629) they saw evidence of homoerotic practices. Male houses of prostitution amrad khaneh, "houses of the beardless", were legally recognized and paid taxes.[44]

Osman Agha of Temeşvar who fell captive to the Austrians in 1688 wrote in his memoirs that one night an Austrian boy approached him for sex, telling him "for I know all Turks are pederasts".[45]

In 1770s, Âşık Sadık the poet wrote, in an address to the Sultan: Lût kavmi döğüşür, put kavmi bozar. Askerin lûtîdir, bil Padişahım ("The people of Lot fight, the people of idolatry spoil. Know, my Sultan, that your soldiers are sodomites").[46]

In Afghanistan in 2009, the British Army commissioned a report into the sexuality of the local men after British soldiers reported the discomfort at witnessing adult males involved in sexual relations with boys. The report stated that though illegal, there was a tradition of such relationships in the country, known as "bache bazi" or boy play, and that it was especially strong around Kandahar.[47]-Wikipedia article on pederasty

Livindesert · 02-08-2011, 08:41 AM

From the Baha'i reference library

Quote:

134. the subject of boys # 107

The word translated here as “boys” has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of paederasty. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations.

The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

In a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi it is stated:

No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá’u’lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature. To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.

Bahá’u’lláh makes provision for the Universal House of Justice to determine, according to the degree of the offence, penalties for adultery and sodomy (Q and A 49).

Livindesert · 02-08-2011, 08:46 AM

Also please read post #2 on this thread.

arthra · 02-08-2011, 04:42 PM

You might find the essay by Kamran Hakim of interest:

Unlike the Qur'an, the Book of Aqdas and other Tablets revealed by Bahá'u'lláh are extremely clear about the question of "lavaat", "sodomy" or homosexual act in general and Bahá'u'lláh has clearly forbidden it in His Tablets (I have already quoted an example of this from among Arabic Tablets.). Bahá'u'lláh has relegated the nature of punishment for committing such an act to the Universal House of Justice. Hopefully such an approach will eradicate once and for all this social illness from among humanity.

Of course one might ask why did Bahá'u'lláh address this issue in the Book of Aqdas in the context of "subject of boys" and "sodomy" instead of that which we characterize today by the umbrella term "homosexuality". In my humble opinion:

1- The Manifestation of God is addressing humanity in a context people could relate to it. One hundred years ago, sodomy characterized the most important non-conventional mode in human sexual tendency which has become only an aspect and an element of what we identify today as homosexuality.
2- Sodomy is used by Bahá'u'lláh as an arch-type or the ultimate example in demonstrating sexual intercourse between two individual of the same sex. This metaphor is quite powerful in its implications that it captures the gist of that which we identify as "homosexuality". Note 134 of the Book of Aqdas (p. 223):

"The word translated here as "boys" has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of pederastry. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations."

3- The Manifestation of God is perhaps attempting to treat an underlying "root cause" of human problem in the society and not just band-aiding some of its symptoms.

The Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality center on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá'í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

Source:

Homosexuality in the Kitab-i-Aqdas

husaynvillar · 02-11-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn

The UHJ writes:

"..it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated.."

If the state law denies the status and privileges of marriage to same-sex couples, it is discrimination. ...

Dear Sen,
That makes no sense from a Baha'i perspective, I believe.
If an Islamic government allows men have more than one wife ¿would Baha'is can support a women's movement that demands that women can have multiple husbands? does not.
If a country's laws allow an adult man to marry a girl 5 years old "Bahá'ís should support the initiative that adult women can marry a boy child? definitely not.
Bahá'ís believe in equality, but we can not propel laws that go against our beliefs, such as hallucinogens use, prostitution, or abortion as a method of birth control.

Sen McGlinn · 02-12-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by husaynvillar

Dear Sen,
That makes no sense from a Baha'i perspective, I believe.
If an Islamic government allows men have more than one wife ¿would Baha'is can support a women's movement that demands that women can have multiple husbands? does not.
If a country's laws allow an adult man to marry a girl 5 years old "Bahá'ís should support the initiative that adult women can marry a boy child? definitely not.
Bahá'ís believe in equality, but we can not propel laws that go against our beliefs, such as hallucinogens use, prostitution, or abortion as a method of birth control.

As for your last sentence, the UHJ has said: "In attempting to reconcile what may appear to be conflicting obligations, it is important to understand that the Baha’i community does not seek to impose its values on others, nor does it pass judgment on others on the basis of its own moral standards."

The full text is on my daily blog

As for your examples, I think that a campaign to change Saudi law to allow each woman to have four husbands might backfire wonderfully: perhaps some men would see how objectionable polygamy is.

In all such issues in the public sphere, we cannot seek to impose Bahai values on society as a whole, and we cannot use "Baha'u'llah said so" as an argument - because these laws and teachings are for Bahais, not for everyone. There is no benefit in obeying the form without the belief (see Aqdas paragraph 1). So we (Bahai individuals participating in public debate, not Bahai institutions) could argue that polygamy is usually harmful, or that the state and public has an interest in discouraging young marriages,

Specifically in relation to same sex marriages, the UHJ has written (same letter), "to regard those with a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain would be against the spirit of the Faith. Furthermore, a Baha’i is exhorted to be “an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression”, and it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated."

BruceDLimber · 02-13-2011, 06:07 AM

Shoghi Effendi made the clear statement that unless physical realities make this impossible, laws pertaining to men apply equally to women mutatis mutandis!

So any suggestions about polyandry are as foreign to the Baha'i Faith as those about polygamy.

Simple as that.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

husaynvillar · 02-13-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn

I think that a campaign to change Saudi law to allow each woman to have four husbands might backfire wonderfully: perhaps some men would see how objectionable polygamy is.

Dear Sen,

although this may seem like a good idea, I think the result would be a disaster. another example motivated by the same spirit would be that the governments of countries repress and imprison to Muslims, so that Iran understands our "perspective". would it work? but, well, I think beyond these examples, many good things could be achieved with horrific acts, crimes, and violation of human rights, but I think both of us are reluctant to consider right to go further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn

... because these laws and teachings are for Bahais, not for everyone.

this is not accurate. Baha'i laws are only for the Baha'is, yes. But the teachings of the Faith are good for everyone, and we make efforts to transmit its. We can not impose our beliefs on others, but we can not stop transmit and teach what we consider conducive to the betterment of the world.

On the other hand, "does not seek to impose" is not the same as to militate or promoted. Baha'is, institutions or individuals, can not promote abortion or legalizing drug trafficking. I can not provide marijuana to non Baha'i friends, or encourage my neighbors to be infidel to their wives, under cover the fact that Baha'is can not impose our values.

And specifically, in relation to same sex marriages, the Universal House of Justice has written (same letter that you quote):

In working for social justice, Baha’is must inevitably distinguish between those dimensions of public issues that are in keeping with the Baha’i Teachings, which they can actively support, and those that are not, which they would neither promote nor necessarily oppose. In connection with issues of concern to homosexuals, the former would be freedom from discrimination and the latter the opportunity for civil marriage. Such distinctions are unavoidable when addressing any social issue.

kathij · 02-13-2011, 08:30 PM

Dear Livingindesert

Your quote has clarified one issue for me. The behavior is a spiritual disorder, not a mental disorder, if it can be resolved by a concerted effort. There is no mental illness that is curable by willpower.

As a spiritual disorder, we cannot discriminate against those who are so afflicted, and we are obligated to offer our friendship and love. Baha'i Faith is a system for the education and uplifting of human standards, not a system of judging and condemnation.

Homosexuality is a result of the environment and the culture, just like materialism, drug addiction, and racism, which are all illnesses of the society. There is indeed no quick cure.

01-28-2011, 04:00 PM	#1
Joanna Senior Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Planet Earth Posts: 118	Baha'i and Homosexuality? I've friends who are gay (men and women) and also some that are transgendered. I have always believed that God loves everybody regardless of their sexual orientation or gender. I have been reading a bit about the way that Baha'i teachings view homosexuality. I only found a few things about this, so I do not have all the info yet. However, I realized that Baha'i teachings say that same sex couples would not be able to get married. Would Baha'i as a religion accept homosexual Baha'is? What I mean is, if a person is gay and wants to be a Baha'i, would that be OK? Would they be accepted and cared for in a Baha'i community of worshippers? And does God love LGBT people according to Baha'i teachings? I am sorry if this seems like a pretty basic question, but I really want to know more about this to understand how the faith relates to the differing sexual orientations. Thanks for your understanding

01-29-2011, 01:11 AM	#5
MacGyver Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Mount Everest Posts: 47	Lets not go indirect and from another way or anything. Homosexuality is clearly "condemned" in the Baha'i Scriptures. As human beings, those inflicted with this "mental disorder" are supposed to be given respect, love and basic rights (among which getting proper psychotropic treatment is one). Adopting children by such individuals is totally insane because in no condition should a person who is to receive so much mental as well as spiritual attention (and going through such ailments) can be trusted to bring up a child in the proper way. Baha'u'llah in his Writings have condemned homosexuality in the strongest of terms! So let us not fool ourselves. I might not sound emotionally correct, but thats because I'm putting things at you just as it is. Not everything is just the way we would like it to be. But then there are divine reasons for it ... and that is why we have rules - to control out recklessness due to being in a sphere beyond which we cannot see. In any condition ... look below: Taken from the Lights of Guidance: 1221. Acts of Immorality "Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history, is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex. Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays. "We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view. "The thing people need to meet this type of trouble, as well as every other type, is greater spiritual understanding and stability; and of course we Bahá'ís believe that ultimately this can only be given to mankind through the Teachings of the Manifestation of God for this Day." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 21, 1954) ------------------------ 1225. The Question Should Not Be if a Practicing Homosexual Can Be a Bahá'í, But as Such Can He Overcome His Problem Through the Teachings "Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Thus Bahá'í law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married. "Thus, it should not be so much a matter of whether a practicing homosexual can be a Bahá'í as whether, having become a Bahá'í, the homosexual can overcome his problem through knowledge of the teachings and reliance on Bahá'u'lláh." (From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 14, 1973) 1230. Homosexuality, Immorality and Adultery Are Forbidden in the Faith "The question of how to deal with homosexuals is a very difficult one. Homosexuality is forbidden in the Bahá'í Faith by Bahá'u'lláh; so, for that matter, are immorality and adultery. If one is going to start imposing heavy sanctions on people who are the victims of this abnormality, however repulsive it may be to ___________________ +F1 (Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 106, 1982 U.S. edition) ---------- 1229. A Homosexual Relationship Subverts the Purpose of Human Life "There should be real incentive for you to courageously face the problems inherent in the situation you describe in your letter, and to firmly resolve to change your way of life. But you must desire to do so. Both you and your Bahá'í friend must first recognize that a homosexual relationship subverts the purpose of human life and that determined effort to overcome the wayward tendencies which promote this practice which, like other sexual vices, is so abhorrent; the Creator of all mankind will help you both to return to a path that leads to true happiness." (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, August 23, 1982) ---------- There are more. The UHJ is just very kind and compassionate (not to mention aware of the current wayward situation of this planet where being strict might just hinder some weak souls to break into pieces). In any condition, the writings are quite strict, while Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi have been strict aswell. UHJ is strict too, but they keep everyones spiritual levels into their consideration (how much a person can take - unfortunately for some, the amount they can take is limited in a crazy way!). Happy reading! Last edited by MacGyver; 01-29-2011 at 01:19 AM. Reason: Grammar! ... Thats what I'm repairing here. Whoever invented it, I would like to repair him aswell!

01-29-2011, 05:18 AM	#8
MacGyver Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Mount Everest Posts: 47	@Lunitik: Your whole answer is rather rambling. Why should my "tone" disagree with my quotes? Infact all I wrote was that the Baha'i faith condemns Homosexuality. This is very explicitly indicated in the Holy Writings - I just don't believe in the hide and seek games, because I believe in following the Words of God regardless what I feel or think like. Because if I had to live on my terms there was no reason to get involved in worshiping a Higher Knowledge who knows better and have set rules. Following religion is also adhering to some rules which shape a way of life. My own quote does suggest that we must come forward to aid those who suffer from this ailment. I also said the same thing ... as Baha'u'llah Condemns homosexuality he doesn't condemn those who suffer from it. You can condemn HIV/AIDS as a disease, but not the person who is inflicted. I don't know where you found my tone not in accordance with my quotes. Or maybe you looked too hard to find the conflicts? I suggest you don't do that, rather try to see the moral of the story. The moral of the story is that I'm just putting it straight as it is - no gimmik there. Because we don't need such stuff. Soul has no gender... where did you come up with this is also a big question. However for arguments sake even if I take this for granted, when the scriptures say that it regresses the soul to be involved in such "restricted/banned" activities by the faith ... then it does tell us a lot about how such activities directly harm the soul. I don't know how sexually promiscuous you have been ... and I had no intention to judge you on that. Its between you and God ... but that doesn't add up to your experience of enlightenment to me. It just tells me that you somehow feel in a better position to look at life beyond the Laws of God. But let me tell you, there is nothing beyond the Faith if you are in it. Life began from nothingness when the first man put his belief in the Bab. That was the point the world was born, and this is the world you preferred to be a part of. To look into the world outside and try to justify things on their merit is nothing but pushing yourself into the realms of confusion. I recommend you read deeper into the Faith. You will find that such a regressive attitude of a couple involved in something so Un-Permitted in the faith will obviously throw a negative impact on a child. There is no meaning of letting a child (in his/her tender, formative and other stages of life) into a mess which is not only mentaly by spiritually IN A BIG PROBLEM. You don't plant a rose in toxic field and believe that oneday it will blossom in its full radiance. This is nothing but common sense. First cure the toxic field, bring out the fertile and healthy soil in it - then you go ahead planting whatever good tree and it will give fruits aswell. Otherwise ... you plant something in toxic and after a period of time it will be a part of that toxic waste (not only die - which is again, common sense). My words are hard. I know ... ! They might not sound like honey, and might not be politically correct. But they are in accordance with the writings, in short, and quite straight. I did not find anything which conflicts with the quotations I've made. If there are such words, please show then with points. If you mean "acceptable nowadays" to be something we must accept aswell. Then I guess you as desperately wrong mate! Many things can be acceptable at many periods of time, which are certainly not acceptable ways in our Faith. Free sex maybe acceptable in USA but its not the acceptable way in our Faith ... just for example. Still is a couple thinks its their way of life ... then they are fooling themselves in making their own laws and thinking that God must be OK with it. @Joanna: I'm sorry but there are explicit writings available. The best approach would be to read the Lights of Guidance or the Book's Authored by Baha'u'llah Himself. Unless the explanation is provided by Abdul Baha, no other explanation exist and there is no scope for anyone else to give you a GIMMIK explanation for that. As for the adoption of children by gays you might bring ... which I said is common sense. This again you might refer to the House of Justice to be more sure. But then, the basic truth is quite obvious. Last edited by MacGyver; 01-29-2011 at 05:19 AM. Reason: Making some fonts clearer.

01-29-2011, 05:26 AM	#9
Lunitik Senior Member Joined: Oct 2010 From: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,635	@MacGyver - For me, if religion becomes the reason for hostility, there is even less purpose for it than in its purpose as a guiding light. The way I read your reply was quite hostile, and while overall I agree with your statement, this is not the manner I believe Baha'is are taught to approach such topics. Look at examples pertaining to alcohol abuse, and the kind directing we are told to convey towards seeking help. Is alcoholism and homosexuality really so different? Both stunt our spiritual growth and both are forbidden. As for why I state the spirit lacks gender or sexuality, I believe I have read it explicitly, however it is certainly inferred. What purpose is gender in the spiritual world? It is a function of the flesh, but serves a purpose for God in creating new spirits, thus within certain conditions outlined in the scriptures it is even considered a blessing. Last edited by Lunitik; 01-29-2011 at 05:46 AM.

02-08-2011, 06:59 AM	#25
kimkey Junior Member Joined: Feb 2011 From: Ohio, United States Posts: 2	Confused a little... I have a question about the Baha'i faith as it relates to homosexuality. The original writings don't really address this issue from what I am understand. It alludes to Men having sex with boys - a completely different subject. The ruling the faith follows comes from an interpretation. Do I have this correct? I am new to this forum so please excuse my ignorance on this subject. Thank you to all who reply.

01-28-2011, 04:51 PM	#3
Joanna Senior Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Planet Earth Posts: 118	Thank you for that post. So this means roughly that Baha'i is not against homosexuals as people but does not necessarily support gay marriage, if I understand this correctly? I will come back again and read this when I am more awake :P but thanks for your answers you've been very helpful

01-29-2011, 12:19 AM	#4
Sen McGlinn Senior Member Joined: Aug 2010 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Posts: 249	The UHJ writes: "..it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated.." If the state law denies the status and privileges of marriage to same-sex couples, it is discrimination. Marriage gives, for example, inheritance rights, the right to visit one's partner in hospital or prison, the possibility of adopting children, and tax breaks (for which there is the quid pro quo that the marriage partner is liable to support his/her partner) and so forth. These are not trivial. Not to mention the question of dignity and recognition.

01-29-2011, 02:50 AM	#7
Joanna Senior Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Planet Earth Posts: 118	OK thank you for the comments and answers. I also wanted to know whether God loves Gays. Does Bahaullah mention this anywhere in his writings? I mean, that God's love encompasses everybody, regardless of their sexual orientation?

01-29-2011, 07:05 AM	#10
MacGyver Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Mount Everest Posts: 47	@Lunitik: Yeah I believe that religion is better off without being hostile. I am not trying to be hostile to you, its just the concept of being a "flexible" when it comes to definite and explicit laws against which I am reasonably hostile. As a Baha'i, I have all good feelings for you. Lets not confuse the focus of where my hostility is projected. We always need to be hostile against dirt in a reasonable manner to remove it from our garment! Dirt are sometimes very tough to remove, for that we need a different degree of hostility. However, its never to hurt the garment. Do you get what I am saying by my paragraph above my friend? Lets chill, if you consider me a friend, and I also do the same ... we will find many words not make negative impacts on each other anymore, and things can become more smooth (i.e. lets have a more friendly mental setup). I like to be straight cut. Put things straight just as they are. We cannot infer on many things when its been explained (inferred) only by Abdul Baha. However, when its written that "you don't steal even an apple from the tree of your neighbor", we can logically infer that it means you cant steal even the chicken of your neighbor. It doesn't matter if chicken belongs to a higher and different status of life! The spirit of BANNING applies there in the same way. Although Alcohol abuse (infact even serving or drinking) is also banned ... but it cannot be aligned with homosexuality. These are two very separate subjects, even though both of them are banned. You may find many things common, but eventually they are totally different aspects. Homosexuality is one aspect which is the point of great condemnation as well. Not only since Baha'u'llah, but since all those who carrying forward the Abrahamic religions. Its an entire history. Beyond that also in Buddhism (which due to taking part in a research I believe is also an Abrahamic religion, born in India ... but in any condition it has the same things). About soul having no "gender". Let me tell you that I have nothing on it. But I know that soulmates exist in Baha'i Faith ... of a truly devoted and chaste (sex after marriage only, among a couple ... in whatever range of excitement or fun whatever you call it, is totally chaste) couple. If that is the case, in the spirit world there might be ways to distinct. Or they unite into one ... matters of such great philosophy! The Philosophy of the soul started since Adam, continued to Baha'u'llah, and will continue forever ... the journey to learn the truth of the soul is as eternal as the journey to reach God (Perfection). We cannot really come across and give a final word (that is, reach one of the ends, the last corner in one dimension) on the soul. Better to say that its a matter of after-life, and all we can do to help it is written to us time after time! MY FRIEND ... Sooth! ... ... No attack intended. I love you! ... and I'm not gay

01-29-2011, 07:52 AM	#12
MacGyver Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Mount Everest Posts: 47	Thats what I am saying ... they simply cannot marry and they simply cannot get involved in any form of homosexual activity. They must uphold all our laws ... eventually they don't remain homosexual anymore (if they are not doing it). The plight of the homosexual is different from the straight (normal/natural) person though, thats what I feel. But yes, they need chasteness (but ours include sexual activity with our wife in the CHASTENESS), yep they have all obligations. They simply cannot marry or act homosexually, plus they definitely need to seek spiritual and medical (psychological) help to get out of this condition of theirs. This is also a point which cannot be missed. If you read Abdul Baha and also other word's of his and the word's of Baha'u'llah together, you will realize that yes, as I also said, those who are afflicted with a disease are not to be treated in a bad way or prejudiced way. But we stand against the disease! ... not the diseased!

01-29-2011, 02:43 PM	#14
Joanna Senior Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Planet Earth Posts: 118	Thanks everybody for your answers! I am starting to see a pattern here very similar to what many of my fellow Christians believe and follow: love the sinner, hate the sin. In this case the "sinner" would be the homosexual person and the "sin" would be the homosexuality in itself. I get it, that's how many Christians also think! Thanks for telling me what's going on in this topic! It's good to know some views on this and to hear the Baha'i teachings on this. It's not that very different from the other world religions views on this subject. Cheers, Joanna

01-31-2011, 02:56 AM	#17
MacGyver Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Mount Everest Posts: 47	No ... we don't live among Christians or Muslims and act as them. The author of all these Books is the same... God. So the author has a fixed code of morals. He changes laws from time to time, but the basic Religious, moral concepts only extends and broadens ... deepens the understanding of man. Strengthens the love. Many things are supposed to be common. Its a common sense (the author is the same). It doesn't mean we are acting alike ... it only means that upstairs its the same Boss operating ... with a new project ofcourse, according to the time ... but the same goal of salvation ... perfection (an eternal journey ... as Perfection is God - a huge word this perfection ... a very huge word).

01-31-2011, 04:42 PM	#18
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,302	Mac that simply isn't true, the concept of all these books, the Bible, the Quran, the Bagavad gita, the Bahai writings do not correspond to each other or directly relate. They often contradict each other especially on who God is.

02-02-2011, 01:33 PM	#23
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,302	Orthodox =/= Evangelical

02-08-2011, 08:46 AM	#29
Livindesert Senior Member Joined: Jul 2010 From: Delmarva Posts: 430	Also please read post #2 on this thread.

02-08-2011, 04:42 PM	#30
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,063	You might find the essay by Kamran Hakim of interest: Unlike the Qur'an, the Book of Aqdas and other Tablets revealed by Bahá'u'lláh are extremely clear about the question of "lavaat", "sodomy" or homosexual act in general and Bahá'u'lláh has clearly forbidden it in His Tablets (I have already quoted an example of this from among Arabic Tablets.). Bahá'u'lláh has relegated the nature of punishment for committing such an act to the Universal House of Justice. Hopefully such an approach will eradicate once and for all this social illness from among humanity. Of course one might ask why did Bahá'u'lláh address this issue in the Book of Aqdas in the context of "subject of boys" and "sodomy" instead of that which we characterize today by the umbrella term "homosexuality". In my humble opinion: 1- The Manifestation of God is addressing humanity in a context people could relate to it. One hundred years ago, sodomy characterized the most important non-conventional mode in human sexual tendency which has become only an aspect and an element of what we identify today as homosexuality. 2- Sodomy is used by Bahá'u'lláh as an arch-type or the ultimate example in demonstrating sexual intercourse between two individual of the same sex. This metaphor is quite powerful in its implications that it captures the gist of that which we identify as "homosexuality". Note 134 of the Book of Aqdas (p. 223): "The word translated here as "boys" has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of pederastry. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations." 3- The Manifestation of God is perhaps attempting to treat an underlying "root cause" of human problem in the society and not just band-aiding some of its symptoms. The Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality center on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá'í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married. Source: Homosexuality in the Kitab-i-Aqdas Last edited by arthra; 02-08-2011 at 04:44 PM.

02-13-2011, 06:07 AM	#33
BruceDLimber Senior Member Joined: Mar 2010 From: Rockville, MD, USA Posts: 823	Shoghi Effendi made the clear statement that unless physical realities make this impossible, laws pertaining to men apply equally to women mutatis mutandis! So any suggestions about polyandry are as foreign to the Baha'i Faith as those about polygamy. Simple as that. Peace, :-) Bruce Last edited by BruceDLimber; 02-13-2011 at 06:09 AM.

02-13-2011, 08:30 PM	#35
kathij Junior Member Joined: Jan 2011 From: Brookings, Or. Posts: 18	Dear Livingindesert Your quote has clarified one issue for me. The behavior is a spiritual disorder, not a mental disorder, if it can be resolved by a concerted effort. There is no mental illness that is curable by willpower. As a spiritual disorder, we cannot discriminate against those who are so afflicted, and we are obligated to offer our friendship and love. Baha'i Faith is a system for the education and uplifting of human standards, not a system of judging and condemnation. Homosexuality is a result of the environment and the culture, just like materialism, drug addiction, and racism, which are all illnesses of the society. There is indeed no quick cure.

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