Lunitik

From here:

For me, this is not only the foundation for consultation, but also the faith. In the past, I have posited that each incoming devotee from another faith must meet in the middle with an opposite religious practice. To state obvious examples, Christians and Muslims must come together around the resurrection: Christians must accept that Jesus didn't come back in the body, Muslims must accept that Jesus was on the cross at all. Another example is that between Hindu's and Buddhists, one must accept there is only one God, the other must accept there is a God at all. The atheist must accept there is a God, the theist must accept God intervenes. The mystic must accept that they must partake in society, the materialist must accept that acquisition is not important. For me, this all equates to a profound consultation.

Is there any other example of true unity, though? Through consultation, we all meet in the middle and commit to consensus. If you are right, but dispute to the point of creating enimity, there can be no positive results. If the agreed consensus is wrong, well, we will eventually have to go in a different direction. I challenge anyone to point to something in the writings that could result in anything but righteousness, however. I see nothing in the writings that will not culminate in a better world, which must be the ultimate goal of all motivations.

Lunitik

I would like to add, especially for Orthodox, that in this way, the councils he often speaks of were examples of consultation. From the Baha'i perspective, they drew incorrect conclusions, but they retained unity.

That being said, I must implore you yet again to review the proofs and question whether Baha'u'llah actually provides necessary evidence that majority consensus did not arrive at the right answers. Does this mean the Church was not protected, surely not! Consensus drove the Church forward! Does consensus mean the decision was correct, however?

This is a question you must answer for yourself, Orthodox. This thread is not targeted at you, only this post is. I wish to see what all on these boards feel about this quote, but this post directly addresses you alone.

Orthodox

Christians will never accept that view lunatik. We will follow the apostles Christ trusted and promised to protect. But the bahai perspective is wrong, they arrived at the right conclusion based on the fathers before them and the scripture you have no right to say they were wrong based the scriptures and teh consistent application of the fathers.

Sboyce

The truth belongs to God, the mistakes are ours orthodox. We know you disagree and have reason behind your position

Orthodox

Truth is of God, and it flows from him.

LordOfGoblins

No idea what you guys are on about but the day I beleive the priets are infallible is the day I drive a dagger through my chest. I flicked on the tv last night and found coincidentally a documentary on a sect of Christianity in France 1200Ad called the "cathars". The Catholics wiped them out and exterminated them in the inquisitions due to the fact that they didnt agree with the Catholic doctrine to worship the cross (being the instrument for the death of Jesus).
The pope ordered their extermination. Once again proof of the infallibility of the church and that "Jesus will be a faithful bride to his church".
For more information on this interesting branch of Christianity that was destroyed by a more powerful one check
Catharism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Livindesert

oh come on do you really have to result to insults. Very childish.

LordOfGoblins

And where is the insult? Did you read the article. Thousands of people died and you are worried I am using strong language? They were burned in a fire.

Lunitik

I just hope you understand how letting majority rule permits unity and protection of the Church - whether it is correct or not. That is the only thing I am pointing out to you here. Within the Baha'i Faith, majority being wrong is better than a minority being right, and we trust that any wrong decisions will be realized. You have yourself admitted these men are fallible, I hope that you will practice consultation in discovering truth for yourself.

Lunitik

Thing is, I think his reason is emotional... which consultation requires we be detached from.

Lunitik

While certainly they are no more infallible than any other person, I see no reason to go in this direction in this thread. We are all quite aware that the Catholic Church has committed some atrocities through the years, but that is not the fault of those that have adopted it today.

What this really screams to me, however, is the fact that despite this intolerance for difference, there are still those Christians that believe much different things compared to the Catholic Church. Why did these differing opinions survive despite the risks?

arthra

For me, this is not only the foundation for consultation, but also the faith. In the past, I have posited that each incoming devotee from another faith must meet in the middle with an opposite religious practice. To state obvious examples, Christians and Muslims must come together around the resurrection: Christians must accept that Jesus didn't come back in the body, Muslims must accept that Jesus was on the cross at all. Another example is that between Hindu's and Buddhists, one must accept there is only one God, the other must accept there is a God at all. The atheist must accept there is a God, the theist must accept God intervenes. The mystic must accept that they must partake in society, the materialist must accept that acquisition is not important. For me, this all equates to a profound consultation.

Is there any other example of true unity, though?

The above are excellent examples..

Everyone can learn from each other.. What are the aspects though that characterizes consultation?

1.establish the full facts;

2.decide on the principles to be applied;

3.discuss the matter;

4.make a decision.

Each of these steps is preceded by prayer, both to invoke the help of God and to remind those consulting of what their attitude should be. If problems arise during the consultation, prayers are said to resolve the difficulties.
Other groups of a spiritual nature might like to adopt this approach.

"True consultation is spiritual conference in the attitude and atmosphere of love."

It is possible inter-faith groups use these principles or any other group say..

When interfaith groups meet and use consultation it could be the beginning of understanding and lay foundations for peace and cooperation.

What hinders consultation is dogmatic assertions that my side is always right and all the others are wrong..this also inflates ego and when this happens communication ceases.. ears are stopped. When Jesus said that ears have they with which they do not hear.. and eyes have they but they do not see...it was this attitude He addressed in my view.

Lunitik

I agree, arthra

BruceDLimber

Inaccurate.

Buddhism has split into several different subgroups.

While some are indeed atheistic, others are definitely theistic!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Lunitik

Details details! LOL

You know what I was getting at though, and most on these boards are unaware of the theist branches of Buddhism it seems - certainly I was, as I was under the impression they are more about finding their inner divinity? (otherwise known as Nirvana)

cire perdue

There is no surprise that "...Christians will not accept..." Baha'u'llah. Christ was not accepted in His day. A tiny handful were left after He was crucified. B/C it was of God it grew, but slowly. It should be very obvious that people do not want the truth about themselves or anything that might lead to self awareness and understanding. Historically people have changed by small groups who accepted new beliefs who maintained them, lived them, and others became attracted. It is a proof of a Manifestation of God to be rejected. How many Christians does one think there were 120 years after the death of Christ? I am certain that Baha'is are probably at the same proportion. The issue is the hearing ear and seeing eye!!!

Baha'is do not join because of popular acceptance, but as an act of faith. It is a privilege to live in this day and have had that choice. It's like living in the early days of Christianity. It's exciting. The Faith is organically growing as all contribute to the unified whole.

LordOfGoblins

What I said was probably not very relevent to your topic. Sorry about that...
In any case it struck me when I flicked on the tv a couple of nights ago i heard about this denomination that used to have many many members. They roamed the country side and had their own set of beliefs and then were wiped out by a more powerful denomination. Now if we cannot take this as evidence that Jesus has abondoned his church we may as well abandon all our reason and good sense about what right and wrong actually is...

Orthodox

The majority do rule lunatik, the majority of Bishops and it is through their consensus the orthodox have maintained unity.

arthra

The purpose is to emphasize the statement that consultation must have for its object the investigation of truth.

He who expresses an opinion should not voice it as correct and right but set it forth as a contribution to the consensus of opinion, for the light of reality becomes apparent when two opinions coincide. A spark is produced when flint and steel come together.

Man should weigh his opinions with the utmost serenity, calmness and composure.

Before expressing his own views he should carefully consider the views already advanced by others.

If he finds that a previously expressed opinion is more true and worthy, he should accept it immediately and not willfully hold to an opinion of his own.

By this excellent method he endeavors to arrive at unity and truth.

Opposition and division are deplorable. It is better then to have the opinion of a wise, sagacious man; otherwise, contradiction and altercation, in which varied and divergent views are presented, will make it necessary for a judicial body to render decision upon the question.

Even a majority opinion or consensus may be incorrect. A thousand people may hold to one view and be mistaken, whereas one sagacious person may be right.

Therefore, true consultation is spiritual conference in the attitude and atmosphere of love. Members must love each other in the spirit of fellowship in order that good results may be forthcoming. Love and fellowship are the foundation.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 72