cire perdue

I have seen comments from critics of the Faith that we have blindly submitted to the Faith of Baha'u'llah. I agree that we submit, but that we are not blind. It occurs to me that unless one submits to an actual spiritual force that one's efforts may not bear fruit. Personal confirmation by change may or may not occur, and is not proof to anyone but that believer. The entire basis of endeavor by faith is a personal effort, however it is a fact known by the religious of the world that someone may achieve accomplishments by faith that could not be made by volitional or moral choice. A non-religious example of this is AA whose spiritual program attests to the maintenance of sobriety by spiritual means. The AA program practices unity.

Western culture has NO history of conscious cultural or societal submission or unity as Baha'is are learning to practice it. (Does it?) Unity expects the individual to consider the common welfare's good to have priority over his desires and needs. I would even venture to say that even families fail to practice unity.

The basis for Baha'i unity is acceptance of Baha'u'llah unconditionally. He is the Archetype of human wisdom in this day/age/era to Baha'is. To accept this means there is a difference between a "confirmed" Baha'i and the person who may say, "Baha'u'llah did not know about future changes, so I don't think that such and such should be practiced as He wrote it." That immediately separates that person's thinking at least in my view from the purpose and intent of being a Baha'i. Now I am not saying that one should/can never think this way, because faith can be a process, however one who believes in that primary idea will be willing to work on his/her thinking about this. It requires a backwards engineering to re-think things.

It requires one to re-examine himself/herself's thinking. I see people who have left the Faith and criticize it usually are not willing to reconsider their own views and criticisms. That alone makes a gulf between firm Baha'is and those who become critical. Some of the firm may have or had had those views, however we consider ourselves as the source for the error, that there is more to understand. The source of the difference may require research or personal growth, but the Baha'i who wishes to preserve unity does not launch an attack or start openly criticizing the Faith. One accepts the anxiety and fear of that position and seeks guidance/help of many kinds. Herein lies another large difference, that there are people who can practice patience while in this turmoil.

I think that critics who think Baha'is blindly adhere are practicing naivety and projection. Never have I seen it more true that we should look into ourselves for flaws than when I see how the Faith is criticized by especially those who have left it or fail to accept it and then give reasons. I see those reasons and for me I have found explanations. I do not ignore those issues. I do know that I believe it is impossible for me to address those issues for that person. The hard thing about taking a stand is one can rarely in the old world sense back down from it, but in Baha'i consultation one can refute their own position. What an incredible gift to mankind, to make humility a common practice, especially for those who equate it with humiliation.

Another source to observe unity is Japan. Though I have read THE CHRYSANTHEMUM AND THE SWORD and have collected Japanese art I cannot speak to having experienced Japanese culture's practice of unity. I know when westerners would be looting as amply demonstrated during natural and manmade disruptions that the Japanese preserved order and do not give away their serenity. I wish to risk postulating why I think there is a difference in that culture that is also deeply implied as a practice in the Baha'i Faith.

I, the individual, am responsible for my feelings and my happiness. No matter what another says or does I am responsible for my feelings and even how much another may hurt me. In abusive situations this is not always possible, but it is a principle that underlies recovering from trauma, that one can heal. Additionally mankind is basically good and a noble creation. Compared to the Japanese westerners apparently do not practice self control is what I think!

This is long enough, but I would surely like criticism, support, additional ideas, and whatever from this Forum.

aidan

Brother,to date,this is the longest piece without quotations that I have seen you post.Thank you for sharing yourself to this extwnt it is indeed a pleasure to read.What has motivated you to post this piece?

cire perdue

I do not do the quoting that many people do and have only been doing so recently, as I learned how to use websites. I am not a researcher that way by nature. I am an "intuitive". I am told I am a "heart" person compared to more intellectual persons. What prompted this which I am grateful it was appreciated was reading criticism on the internet by a once-Baha'i. It's my heart felt answer to criticism of the Faith and an explanation about a division that at times could be said to be between "US" and "Them". It is an attempt to talk about that difference, to define it, and appreciate it, maybe to lay groundwork that helps improve us to teach others. It is the result of thinking about the Japanese culture and Baha'i unity over night.

Submission to ideals is more of an exception to me, than a rule especially in America where we seem more ruled by our passions and our right to express them, but which was recently well demonstrated as well in London when analysis of the rioters showed people of means participating in what was a "lark". That lark destroyed individuals' livlihoods. The world has much to learn about unity.

I think we need to continue to examine the work of our critics and ourselves to learn from. What are they saying that can benefit us. I find it upsetting and sad at times, so this is not for just anyone. There are reasons to avoid this as unnecessary tests for some. That may seem blindish, but it is NOT my job to solve someone else's spiritual quandries. However I may assist.

aidan

Weall chose to submit to Baha'u'llah and that choice is a thoughtful decision therefore not 'blind'

Fadl

Yes.

I'd venture that submitting to Baha'u'llah is the ultimate act of clarity and perceptivity whereas refusing to submit to him is the worst possible form of blindness.

cire perdue

Who is Weall?

kavaliro

Looks like a typo: Weall >>> We all

aidan

sorry all,it should read 'we all'

cire perdue

and some days you duhnt.

WE all, I really did not see that........

cire perdue

"One source of injustice throughout history has been the arbitrary and dictatorial use of power by individuals who have "accounted themselves as superior in knowledge." One of the most remarkable aspects of Baha'u'llah's divinely conceived Administrative Order is the distinction between the "learned" and the "rulers"--a distinction which will rid society of this source of injustice. The Universal House of Justice explains:
In a letter written on 14 March 1927 to the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Isanbul, the Guardian's Secretay explained, on his behalf, the principle in the Cause of action by majority vote. He pointed out how, in the past, it was certain individuals who "accounted themselves as superioor in knowledge and elevated in position" who caused division , and that it was those "who pretended to be the most distinguished of all" who "alwlays proved themselves to be the source of contention." "But praise be to God," he cotinued, "that the Pen of Glory has done away with the unyielding and dictatorial views of the learned and the wise, dismissed the assertions of individuals as an authoritative criterion, even though they were recognized as the most accomplished and learned among men and ordained that all matters be referrred to authorized centers and specified assemblies. Even so, no assembly has been invested with the absolute authority to deal with such general matters as affect the interests of nations. Nay rather, He has brought all the asemblies together under the shadow of one House of Justice, one divinely-appointed Center, so that there would be only one Center and all the rest integrated into a single body, revolving around one expressly-designated Pivot, thus making them all proof against schism and division."

"The existence of institutions of such exalted rank comprising individuals who play such a vital role, who yet have no legislative, administrative or judicial authority, and are entirely devoid of priestly functions or the right to make authoritative interpretations, is a feature of Baha'i administration unparalleled in the religions of the past. The newness and uniqueness of this concept make it difficult to grasp; only as the Baha'i Community grows and the believers are increasingly able to contemplate its administrative structure uninfluenced by concepts from past ages, will the vital inter-dependence of the "rulers" and "learned" in the Faith be properly understood, and the inestimable value of their interaction be fully recognized." " p. 149-150

LordOfGoblins

Isnt that why we have independant investigation of the truth. So that we dont blindly follow others...

aidan

What does "independant investigation of the truth" involve?

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan What does "independant investigation of the truth" involve?

It means that EVERY person has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and then follow that!

And that NO ONE ELSE has the right to interfere in this process--not spouse, parents, family, clergy, or others.

Works great for us! :-)

Bruce

MAWillsey

As a Baha'i, I don't submit to Baha'u'llah, I accept the newest teachings of God as given to us through Baha'u'llah. I can see where the phrase, submit to Baha'u'llah can be offensive to those who follow the Quaran, Considering their strict adherence not to worship prophets, only God.

In the jewish faith I belive that Moses's grave was secret because they knew the weakness of people to try to make greater than he was.

I can also see where using that phrase would confuse those of a Christian background continuing the perception that Christ was actually God and that Baha'I are trying to create a new God.

arthra

Hmmm.. Some passages from the Writings:

Nay, rather it behoveth thee and those like thee to submit yourselves to them Who are the Manifestations of the unity of God, and to defer humbly to the faithful, who have forsaken their all for the sake of God, and have detached themselves from the things which engross men's attention, and lead them astray from the path of God, the All-Glorious, the All-Praised.

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 231

The next is well from the early "Baha'i Scriptures" compilation...

For previous to believing in God and submitting to the Manifestation of Himself, they had the greatest attachment to temporal effects and properties, such as wife, children, food, drink and the like, to such an extent that they spent night and day in seeking vanities and means of enjoyment, and from these things, before arriving at the sea of faith, they were so firm and rooted in the limitations of their fathers and forefathers, and in following their ceremonies and laws, that if sentenced to death, they would rather submit than allow the change of a single letter of the habitual customs which prevailed among the multitude.

~ Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 42

Of course there are likewise passages about submitting to the Cause as well..

Among these "veils of glory" are the divines and doctors living in the days of the Manifestation of God, who, because of their want of discernment and their love and eagerness for leadership, have failed to submit to the Cause of God, nay, have even refused to incline their ears unto the divine Melody.

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 164


And of course submitting to the Will of the Lord:

The essence of understanding is to testify to one's poverty, and submit to the Will of the Lord, the Sovereign, the Gracious, the All-Powerful.

~ Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 155

cire perdue

These are all forms of a position of faith and humility. There is an emotional undertone to using these words that imply a close relationship to God and the Messengers. If one is dependent on the intellect without balance from emotions I think one call think that it is humiliating rather than humbling to submit or surrender to God. Total acceptance of something means to surrender or submit to the total reality of it. "I'm not willing to believe I am wrong about ____" when one is wrong would be the opposite of surrender or submission and acceptance....to me. I do not have a problem with submission to Baha'u'llah and hope that I am able to do that each time I face a test.

aidan

Also 'muslim' means one who submits totally

Fadl

Baha'u'llah is Christ, and submitting to Baha'u'llah is submitting to God.

LordOfGoblins

The point is to submit. That is actually the the purpose of recognising a manifestation and becoming a religious person. When you recognise someone is above you in insight and their wisdom is infinately superier then you submit to their greater wisdom. Not only that but God has made the measure of religion to be through mans submission to his manifestations and to cleaving unto their commandments. That is foundation of religion.
Otherwise nothing is ever achieved. A degree of questioning is good, over questioning is bad...

tonyfish58

Submission is important in my View -

Bahau'llah says

ASL-I-KULLU’L-KHAYR (Words of Wisdom)

The essence of understanding is to testify to one’s poverty, and submit to the Will of the Lord, the Sovereign, the Gracious, the All-Powerful.

Bahá'u'lláh announces His intention of writing a treatise on the stages of the heart at the very end of "The Seven Valleys," which he presents as a description of "the seven stages which the soul of the seeker must needs traverse ere it can attain the object of his existence (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By 140)." Whoever has entered into the seventh Valley, the Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness, has certainly reached a very important turning-point in his/her spiritual life. That seeker has begun to learn how to forget his/her limited personal self, how to concentrate his/her human capacities on the Self of God, the Divine Manifestation on earth, and how to submit his/her will to the Will of God as expressed by the Manifestation, through a wholehearted adherence to God's Laws.

While describing this Valley, Bahá'u'lláh says how knowledge may be attained: knowledge is a gift of God. That is why "to search after knowledge is irrelevant ..." (Valleys 53): it is only through fear of God and through God's bounty that hearts will be enlightened. The required effort then is that minds may be taught "the science of the love of God! [literally: may be brought to the School of the Merciful (dabíristánu'l-Rahmán)]" (Valleys 52). Being steadfast in the love of God and detached from "merchandise" and "traffic" (Valleys 53); that the heart may be prepared and "be worthy of the descent of the heavenly grace" (Valleys 54); relying on God's assistance and submitting to God's will, with the assurance that "guided indeed is he whom God guideth ..."—these are the prerequisites for anyone who wants to reap the fruits of true knowledge. And when those prerequisites will have been fulfilled, then will God bestow the bounty of knowledge at God's own pleasure. The details of this process are illustrated through a verse from the Súrih of the Cave, wherein says Bahá'u'lláh "the mystery treasured in this plane is divulged ..." (Valleys 53).

The idea of knowledge, as it emerges from the study of this Valley, seems quite different from the current idea of knowledge. Knowledge here is not intended as mere intellectual knowledge, which, albeit important and useful, may be the cause of pride and conceit. It is not this partial knowledge that will appease the heart. It is not comprehending a reality that cannot be comprehended in its wholeness that will save a person from the lowest abyss of his/her existence. The knowledge Bahá'u'lláh describes is something else. It is the knowledge that makes the heart fearful and mindful of its Creator, submitted to the Creator's will. That knowledge is light, a safeguard from tests.

Abdul'baha was the perfect example

Selections From the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá

Pages 224-227 -190:
Thou seest me, O my God, bowed down in lowliness, humbling myself before Thy commandments, submitting to Thy sovereignty, trembling at the might of Thy dominion, fleeing from Thy wrath, entreating Thy grace, relying upon Thy forgiveness, shaking with awe at Thy fury. I implore Thee with a throbbing heart, with streaming tears and a yearning soul, and in complete detachment from all things, to make Thy lovers as rays of light across Thy realms, and to aid Thy chosen servants to exalt Thy Word, that their faces may turn beauteous and bright with splendour, that their hearts may be filled with mysteries, and that every soul may lay down its burden of sin. Guard them then from the aggressor, from him who hath become a shameless and blasphemous doer of wrong.

When men are developed spiritually they obey God... The true believer is the one who follows the Manifestation of God in all things. ... The Manifestation of God is a perfect example of real obedience. Like Him we must sacrifice everything, every plan, every longing and ideal must be given up completely to the Will of God. We must look to God for all we desire, all we attain. Real obedience and real sacrifice are identical -- absolute readiness to follow and perform whatever you are called upon to do in the Cause of God. When you really love God you will be willing to sacrifice everything and submit yourself entirely to His Will. His Will is everything; His service paramount. ... If each human creature had his own will and way, spiritual development would be impossible.” (‘Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, vol. 25, no. 11, February 1935)

Regards Tony

cire perdue

As Baha'is we are probably using our own terminology which is comfortable to us when we say "I submit to the will of Baha'u'llah". However should we be using THAT terminology? I think that was the point of MAW's comment. Are we creating a difficulty for those looking at us? We are in fact using Baha'u'llah and God in the same way. Should we correct this practice? The case in point is all of the previous quotes say Will of God, not Baha'u'llah.

Fadl

CP,

That's fine, but the point is, is how does anyone really know what God's will is?

By saying I submit to Baha'u'llah, because He is the chanel through which God's will can be known, there is a certain degree of clarity acheived. By focusing on Baha'u'llah, other "sources" of God's will can be disregarded, and there is protection in this. If someone tells me God told them He wants us to do such and such, as some charismatic Christians do, for example, I won't give it much consideration. God's will is known through his Manifestation. To not know His manifestation, is to not know God's will.

LordOfGoblins

Yes Fadl. And in any case Baha'u'llahs will is Gods will so I dont see the problem Bahais have here..

LordOfGoblins

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.
...
O ye peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His commandments, shining above the Dayspring of His bountiful care and loving-kindness.

-Baha'u'llah

cire perdue

Yes, I know, but my point is should we be colloquially saying "Baha'u'llah" rather than God? By saying "Baha'u'llah" are we putting people off? Which was MA's point, i think?

aidan

could it appear to Christians that we worship Baha'u'llah as they worship Jesus?

cire perdue

That is what I think was the point MAW was making. Then it REALLY looks bad to Christiains. I mean REALLY!

"Oh, those Baha'is, they worship Baha'u'llah. They are from the devil, obviously."

I am curious if anyone of us is aware if this issue has been addressed? Should we be more cautious in our public use of Baha'u'llah? We feel we are dedicated and submissive when we say it, but are we not to do that, does any one know? Sure, WE know what we mean, but what does it look like?

Fadl

I don't know, but this is my opinion. First, Baha'u'llah is a strange name for Western ears. That means we need to be saying it MORE, so that it will eventually not be so strange anymore.

Second, a true Christian will not recognize any other spiritual authority than Christ, and rightly so. Baha'is should do the same! This is why we should also say Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ more than we do. He may also be the prophet founder of the Baha'i faith, but the only reason any Christian or Muslim ought to care what the prophet founder of the Baha'i faith said is due to the fact that he also just so happened to be the Christ. If not for this fact, Christians would be right not to care very much.

I think these things are the most important issues for us. Saying we "submit to the word of God" while also correct, doesn't help much at all, because then we sound like Muslims, and that's a whole other can of worms with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

MAWillsey

You seem to have a grasp of my thoughts and concerns as addressesed in my original post. Emotionally I'm very grateful for all the known and unknown Manifestations of God. But humans have a dangerous tendency to raise up other humans and Manifestation beyound what God intended and it seems the Manifestations themselves warned not to elevate them. Manifestations are heroic figures but still are just a simple tool of God used to teach us fools.

aidan

We should not defer to one group more than another.When we show deferrence to other faiths.we should not adapt or 'downplay'our own sacred beliefs.Surely Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ but he is equally the return of Mohammed<pbuh>,Moses,Zoaraster,Krisna and Buddha.By being clear and transparent in promulgating this belief we should avoid affecting the sensibilities of moslems and christians.And what if we do annoy their sensibilities?I for one am not going to subdue any of my sacred Baha'i beliefs handed down by the Holy Spirit via Baha'u'llah."If you are neither hot nor cold,I will spit you out of my mouth"Brethren we are chosen to follow the greatest faith in the world which is the faith most recently revealed to us by Almighty God.So let us rejoice as we bask in this truth and let us lead ALL God's children into the light by our prayers and example and let us feel the joy of being blessed as Baha'is

cire perdue

I am sure there is a source about this! Anyone?

All the quotes say "will of God", but people say will of Baha'u'llah in practice.

Does it matter?

MAWillsey

[QUOTE=cire perdue;24908]I am sure there is a source about this! Anyone?

All the quotes say "will of God", but people say will of Baha'u'llah in practice.

Does it matter?[/QUOTE

Manifestations are cell phones, simply a tool God uses to communicate with us. It isn't the will of the Manifestation, but of God.

LordOfGoblins

That is true but Fadl is also coming from the positio of how to be an effective teacher. We dont compromise to make people happy but on the other hand from experience you will learn certain things about teaching that are more effective and others that are not. I dont want to go into what I find effective as it may not be what others find effective.
In any case Baha'u'llahs will is Gods will. He is the channel of Gods will but he is also the mirror of God himself. You guys are forgetting that the manifestation is also a reflection of Gods qualities to man...

LordOfGoblins

[QUOTE=MAWillsey;24909]I see where you are coming from but at the same time I dont feel this is a full picture.
Baha'u'llah named his name Baha'u'llah for a reason. His human name was Mirza husayn ali and his spiritual name is Baha'u'llah. But in all truth his true name is his spiritual name not his birth name. The human side of Baha'u'llah is still there and exists but the spiritual side is what dictates someone who is of his spiritual station entirely. That is, their words and actions and everything are coming from the higher nature and the spiritual plane and reflecting Gods attributes to man. They are not mere imparters of a message like someone who brings a message from the king. In this case they are molded to reflect the king himself and not just repeat the message coldly back to mankind like someone repeating off a scroll.
Hope that analogy does not confuse.

Fadl

Let me see if I can pull this together, and better explain why I feel it is better to say we submit to Baha'u'llah, even though this means submitting to God.

Summary based on my understanding:

1. It is your duty to recognize the manifestation of God.
Why? Because He is the source of Revelation, the Fountain (source) of God's laws, and represents the Godhead (divine nature or essence).

2. It is your duty to observe every ordinance (submit to) of the manifestation of God.
Why? Because He is the source of Revelation, the Fountain (source) of God's laws, and represents the Godhead (divine nature or essence).

When I say "I submit to Baha'u'llah" then I am identifying myself who has accomplished condition one and two, which is important. After all, these are the twin duties God has prescribed for men, and the first law revealed in His most holy book.

The following quote also supports this view:

My understanding is that if people "failed to believe in them (Manifestations) and submit to their authority" that this is something that they should have done.

I think it is better to say we submit to Baha'u'llah, for the following reasons. No one has seen God. In this world, at any given time, there are literally hundreds who claim to have special knowledge of God, and present various statements as being God's will. Therefore, anyone claiming to be submitting to God, stands in need of answering the question of which source they are using to know God's will. But should someone say " I submit to Baha'u'llah," they have already answered that question.

Muslims make the strongest statements about submitting to God. Islam even means submission. They never say things like we do, such as "revelation of Muhammad." The Qur'an is the "revelation of God." We also believe this is true. However, when a Muslim says this, he is actually being defamatory, in the sense that, to them, only the Qur'an is the direct revelation of God. The evangel, the Torah, these are "corrupted" and or "lost books", "the works of men," etc, so therefore, not really the revelation of God. Naturally, they don't recognize our sacred writings either. Even though the Qur'an was transmitted from God, through the angel Gabriel, to Muhammad, they will never say the revelation of Muhammad, or Gabriel, about the Qur'an, and since there is, in their mind, no other revelation extant, clarifying which revelation being referred is needless.

I've digressed. If we were to say we submit to God's will, it is confusing and misleading, since, first, we understand that God's will can only be known through a source, the manifestation of God. We also know there have been many, despite that fact that most believe there have only been one, or a few i.e. the one to which they believe, and not the one you do. Without designating which source whereby we know God's will, we sound either like Muslims (in the erroneous way explained above), or like charismatics who think God is communicating directly with them (which is also error). Therefore, it is simply more informative to say we submit to Baha'u'llah. It is very true that this may confuse people, as they don't know what that means or who Baha'u'llah is. Let's tell them.

tonyfish58

I find this post Interesting

To me it is not an issue and I had/have not really thought about it in depth.

To submit to God I have to Submit to Baha'u'llah. To me the writings make this clear. It is not blind submission, it is based on our independent. investigation of truth. Baha'u'llah is the perfect mirror.

This submission is a bounty and for some it takes a long time and others it is immediate.

If we do not submit we have not attained out goal (I think a lot of us are not able to fully submit our wills to God). Baha'u'llah wrote Gods law for this age, it is to those laws revealed by Baha'u'llah that we must fully submit.

To me Abdul'baha was this person, one who fully submitted to Baha'u'llah/the will of God and who's station was the servant of Baha'.

So I ask the following question so I can further ponder.....


1) Why is this an issue? (This question is based on the reflection that I think most Bahai's can explain that their submission is based on independent investigation of truth)
2) Is this not something we should be proud of? (Personally I would be fulfilled if I could fully submit to Baha'u'llah by the end of this earthly life)

Regards Tony

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan [C]ould it appear to Christians that we worship Baha'u'llah as they worship Jesus?

Precisely why I always stress that we worship ONLY God!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

aidan

Im sorry but as implied by Bruce,there is only God and we are all human,including Baha'u'llah although thats where ends any similarity between us and the Ancient Wisdom.I submit to the teaching of Baha'u'llah but I submit to no man only God.By saying that we submit to a human could leave us vulnerable to the 'C' word being bandied about.This talk of submiting to another other than God is beginning to disturb me!

cire perdue

THIS is not an issue of WHO we SUBMIT to, because even when and if Baha'is say they submit to God, we still know that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation AND vice versa.

THE ISSUE is (and as of yet there is no quote):

Should Baha'is be using "submission to Baha'u'llah" and "submission to God" exactly alike? ANYTHING ELSE IS A SIDE ISSUES! We know what we mean, but will the rest of the world?

aidan

We cannot use submission to God and submission to Baha'u'llah totally alike.We can use submission to Baha'u'llah's teaching.Baha'u'llah,AbdulBaha,and The guardian all pointed out this truth.We need to make it clear that we submit to God as revealled to us in the life and teaching of Baha'u'llah