Iconodule

Since we know from the New testament first gospel of John that the Word or Logos Jesus of Nazereth Created the universe and everything within it. And Baha'u'llah is apparently the same Christ incarnate 2000 years ago (again bahai I am confused as to this as it has not been explained to me in a way I can understand) does that therefore mean Baha'u'llah existed before everything was created and God used him to Create teh universe? Or are the Logos (Christ Jesus) and Baha'u'llah two different persons and it was through the Logos (Christ Jesus) that God created the world?

InvestigateTruth

There are similar verses from Baha'u'llah that says the same thing. In the Tablet of Visitation Baha'u'llah says that By His Pen all created things have been called into being, and all the Revelations have been sent down.

"I testify, moreover, that with but a movement of Thy Pen Thine injunction "Be Thou" hath been enforced, and God's hidden Secret hath been divulged, and all created things have been called into being, and all the Revelations have been sent down."

Iconodule

So Did Baha'u'llah bring into existance all things? And therefore would that make him the same person who was said to have done that in the scripture two thousand years ago?

InvestigateTruth

In the Baha'i faith, the world of being is devided into three. The World of God, The World of Will of God, and the World of creation. The World of Will of God is where the Manifestations of God are, while everything else in this world, has no direct way to God. The World of Will of God is the intermediate between the World of God and the World of Creation.

God creates by using the World of Will where the Manifestations of God come from. Now, When the Manifestions of God appear on the earth as a human, they create a new human. But basically they have creative power, but they are obedience to the Will of God.

Iconodule

So God uses created Creatures to create all of this existance we see?

InvestigateTruth

It is also interesting how similar Words can be found about different Manifestations of God.

The Bible says about Jesus:
"All things were created through Him and for Him"

While same thing was said from God to the Bab:
"All that is on earth hath been created for Him, and all partake with delight of His benefits, and yet they are so veiled from Him as to refuse Him even a lamp!"

And again same thing was said to Muhammad:

“But for Thee, I would not have created all that are in heaven and on earth,”

And you would find same statement about Baha'u'llah, that God created the World for Him.

Iconodule

I just find it strange is all. That God uses created beings to create when he is described ultimately as teh creator. In the begining God created hte heavens and the earth, why do we have no mention of this concept before bahai (and the gospel of John indicates the word Jesus is God so its not like the concept of Bahai).

But I would like to Know if I have the Bahai chronology down.

The Universe is eternal.

God is Eternal.

God Creates the universe through all eternity.

God Creates a realm solely for however manifestations he has created (I can assume there are an infinite amount for the bahai as there will likely be no end to this existance for the bahai).

God uses theres manifestations to Create everything in the universe and chooses to let One come every one thousand or so years or whenever he feels like it.

Is this representing the Bahai Chronology?

arthra

The Word of God or Logos was something Philo Judaeus wrote about before John wrote his Gospel and used the term...

I think many Christians over time in developing their theologies latched onto this concept of Logos and later Trinity..so the words have become heavy ladened with ideas developed by their theologians. I think to argue from a Christian perspective using theological constructs of Christians and try to apply it to say the Baha'i paradigm is a futile exercise

But in the Baha'i Writings you'll find the following term Word of God also used in the following ways..

In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 257

Today nothing but the power of the Word of God which encompasses the realities of things can bring the thoughts, the minds, the hearts and the spirits under the shade of one Tree. He is the potent in all things, the vivifier of souls, the preserver and the controller of the world of mankind. Praise be to God, in this day the light of the Word of God has shone forth upon all regions, and from all sects, communities, nations, tribes, peoples, religions and denominations, souls have gathered under the shadow of the Word of Oneness and have in the most intimate fellowship united and harmonized!

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 295

Naught but the celestial potency of the Word of God, which ruleth and transcendeth the realities of all things, is capable of harmonizing the divergent thoughts, sentiments, ideas, and convictions of the children of men.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 103

The Word of God is revealed through the Manifestation of God for the given age it appears in... by attaching an outworn theological construct to the "Word of God" it would be like trying to say connect an old eight track tape player to a modern digital computer... The poorer quality of sound of the eight track tape player would only be amplified or repeated.. What needs to occur is to simply use the digital system or rely on it for a superior quality of sound.

Similarly the "Word of God" for this day is an improved quality more direct source of revelation that was absent in earlier models..

InvestigateTruth

Interesting, the Bible says the same thing:

Colossians 1:15-16
"... the firstborn over all creation"
Means that He was the first creation.

"All things were created through Him and for Him."

Note that it does not say Jesus created All things. It says, All things were created "through" Him. As I understand, God created all things through Him.

Him, is refering to the Manifestation of God, which are One Spirit, according to Baha'u'llah:

"For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences."- Book of Iqan

The thing is that, the only way to express the Baha'i View accurately, is by quoting the Baha'i Writings.
If I or any other Baha'i tells you, things by his own wording, that's just based on his understanding, and not necessarily accurate or correct.

Iconodule

Now I don't think the first born of all Creation necessarily implies that Jesus was created in light of Paul's other sayings saying Christ is on equal level with God and the like. A Created being ain't to be equal to an eternal being. And yes the gospel does tell us Jesus Created all things.

"All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made" So Jesus is the creator of everything and we owe our existence to him.

Now I understand the Bahai rely on their texts, which is why I ask if this chronolgy is correct.

- God exists.

- God exists along side of the universe.

- God's first creation is his manifestations in their own unique realm.

- God through these manifestations creates everything in the universe.

- God sends his manifestations to mankind at certain points in history.

InvestigateTruth

As I understand, I agree with some of your statements, based on Baha'i Writings, but the way you put them in word, is different from how I would or the baha'i writings.

Well, these things are perhaps the most difficault subjects, that no human being is capable to understand fully and I just don't think these realities can be easlily put to accurate words. That's why, these things are explained with physical examples and parables, so that we may have some understanding.




I would say, God is Eternal and ancient in His Essense and has never been changing as He is absolute perfection, but universe has been always evolving and changing through the Will of God.


When we talk about Manifestations, we are talking about 2 different stations (2 reality) of Them.
In one aspect, if we are talking about the Holy Reality, there is only one Manifestation of God. Though this does not mean, that same Spirit goes into body of Manifestations. It is not a physical reality.

If we are talking about indivisual reality of the Manifestations of God, they are different beings.


The Holy Reality of Manifestation of God, has always existed with God. As the Sun, which always manifests it's light from the day it was sun.


On one hand Light is always Light. If we say that the Reality of the light that was manifested from the sun yesterday, it is the same light that is manifested today, or tomorrow, it is correct. Because, that light is manifested from the same sun, and is made of the same thing.

Now if this light today was able to talk, and says, through me, the world has always been given heat and light it's ture. Although, the light of today was only effective today, because with respect to time, the light of yesterday is different from today's.

Now, in this analogy, if we may say, God to be the Sun, and Manifestation of God to be the light of the sun, then there is only one reality which appears every day. Yesterday He was called Jesus, today He is called Baha'u'llah, and tomorrow another name.



Therefore the rational soul of Manifestations of God, which is the indivisual reality has a begining, and that's when He appears as a human. Therefore in this aspect of Them is considered as a created being, but the Holy Reality had always existed with God.



I think the Will Power of God by which God created everything, is that Holy Reality, that Light, which when appears on earth as a human, it is called the Manifestation of God or Divine Messenger. Therefore if any of the Manifestation of God says, through Him, every thing is created, He is talking about His own Holy Reality, but not indivisual reality. The Holy Reality which is common and One among all Divine Messengers. That is the Light that existed from all eternity to all eternity, the Primal Will of God.
Hope this is clear.

Fadl

Yes.

Why 'a person?' Was logos a person? Since 'in the beginning was the word' (logos) and therefore there was actually no other creation yet, do you believe the logos (word) was a physical being 'floating' in non existence? If there was no creation yet, what was this 'person' who was logos composed of? After all, at that stage, 'thing' and 'nothing' would be synonymous.

LordOfGoblins

He is not the same Jesus Christ. He is another mirror reflecting the same light of God to man. Can two people be intelligent at maths. If one person claims to be a great mathematician does that mean that there can never be another mathematician like him?
Return is not literal.
Baha'u'llah was a separate person from Jesus but he possessed the same divine bestowal and perfection.
Qualities like wisdom, kindness insight and all the divine qualities.
Anyway. The Bahai writings explain the subject of return like this.
If a flower comes in the last season then dies and a new flower comes you might say the flower has come again. It is not the exact specific flower, but the beauty and the fragrance reminds you of the last flower very closely.
We do not believe Baha'u'llah is literally God. God is an entity separate. So In conclusion my opinion is no, Baha'u'llah did not literally create the universe. If he ever claimed he did in the writings, and I am not sure where he does, he would be speaking merely from Gods perspective..

LordOfGoblins

Originally Posted by Iconodule
So Did Baha'u'llah bring into existance all things?
Fadl, are you sure...

Iconodule

Yes clearly the Logos was a person, as the Logos was made flesh and we beheld him, and who is the Logos? Obviously it is Jesus Christ.

We have John refer to him as being made flesh dwelling amongst us beholding the glory as one Unique son of the father, fall of grace and truth. And John the Baptist bore witness to him, and who did John the Baptist bore witness to? Christ himself. Yes the Logos is a person, it isn't an abstract concept, as an abstract concept could not be made flesh as by their very nature abstract concepts really don't exist.

And no i do not believe that Jesus before his incarnation was physical, that seems absurd as he existed as God through all eternnity. Rather the word was made incarnate and that word was Jesus Christ, the Logos. And what was the Logos composed of? I can only tell you what the gospel does, deity, the Logos was with God and was God, thus he had the same substance as the father, perfect divinity.

But since you are saying that Baha'u'llah brought all things into existence are you asserting that he together with Jesus Christ brought everything into existence, or that he is the same Jesus Christ two thousand years ago that brought everything into existence, therefore making him the Logos and therefore God?

cire perdue

Christ and Baha'u'llah manifested the Logos. God created Logos. God created the World. ?

Christ and Baha'u'llah had bodies. They were Vessels for the Holy Spirit.

Since when are these issues supposed to be absolutely clear, black and white, or simply stated. They probably are not actually comprehensible to us. Trying to say it this was feels like a trap so Baha'is can get jumped on and belittled. Again.

Fadl

Iconodule,

I am stating that it was the logos which was in the beginning, and not Jesus of Nazareth. The Logos became flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth only billions of years later, so obviously, in the beginning was not Jesus-not yet.

The logos was in the beginning, and that logos became flesh in the person of Jesus and in the person of Baha'u'llah.

Fadl

Yes, I am sure. As sure as I am the Baha'u'llah was the voice on Sinai. Naturally we are speaking of logos and not peoples or personalities. Christ and Baha'u'llah are the same reality. Only Jesus and Mirza Husayn Ali are different.

cire perdue

Good. Now is there the part where we are going to be ridiculed and criticized?

EternalStudent

Iconodule, I have a question for you: Are you, by attacking Baha'is, showing the love of Christ?

The Greatest Commandment (Paraphrased):
Love God with all that is in you, and love your fellow man as yourself.

Remember, Christ said that belief in Him WILL NOT get you into the Kingdom of God. It is acting with love, and being a servent. Each person you served was considered to be the same as serving Christ Himself. Let's look at it a different way. If serving people is serving Christ, is attacking people attacking Christ?

LordOfGoblins

I thought we make a distinction between God the creator of the universe and his manifestations who reflect his light. And are really men who have very high spiritual realities ultimately...
Thats how I see it anyhoo.

Fadl

You are not wrong. But both are possible, it depends on viewpoint:

"Thus, should the mirrored Sun proclaim, 'I am the Sun!' this is but truth; and should It cry, 'I am not the Sun!' this is the truth as well. And although the Day-Star, with all Its glory, Its beauty, Its perfections, be clearly visible in that mirror without stain, still It hath not come down from Its own lofty station in the realms above, It hath not made Its way into the mirror; rather doth It continue to abide, as It will forever, in the supernal heights of Its own holiness.

And further, all the earth's creatures require the bounty of the sun, for their very existence is dependent upon solar light and heat. Should they be deprived of the sun, they would be wiped out. This is the being with God, as referred to in the Holy Books: man must be with his Lord.

It is clear, then, that the essential reality of God is revealed in His perfections; and the sun, with its perfections, reflected in a mirror, is a visible thing, an entity clearly expressing the bounty of God.

My hope is that thou wilt acquire a perceptive eye, a hearing ear, and that the veils will be removed from thy sight."

-Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 50

Iconodule

God Created the Logos? that concept certaintly doesn't exist within Scripture, how does God create all wisdom? From which all life, intelligence and creation flowed from? The Logos we are told is with God and is God, can God create a part of himself? I don't think so...
Now, if the Logos is not Jesus Christ, then how does this make any sense? Are you asserting some form of Adoptianism that the Logos entered into Christ at a certain point? Like they say Christ became the son of God at a certain point? Thats not what John says, he says the Logos was made flesh and we begot his glory, there is no reason to say that the Logos and Christ are distinct within the Gospel.

Now Eternal student, I am sorry that you like many bahai take criticism so personally, it is truely something the bahai need to work on but I have said many times what Im doing and Im not repeating myself. If you are so offended by arguments which contradict your religion I suggest you don't really believe in it in the first place.

Fadl

I think you are mixing apples and spiritual oranges here.

First, I said the logos was not Jesus of Nazareth, who would not be born for billions of years from the creation event, so in the beginning was logos not Jesus of Nazareth born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, an event that did not yet happen.

Now you are saying Jesus Christ was in the beginning, and here is where you have an apple and a spiritual orange. Christ is not the surname of Jesus, it is one of his titles, and his spiritual reality. The Logos became flesh in Jesus. The use of the word 'became' is indicative of a sequence and change of state. A condition that was not before, came to be 'be came'. The logos became flesh, so before that it was not flesh. Jesus of Nazareth was born of woman and was flesh. That is how the logos became flesh. It makes no sense to say Jesus (the son of man, ie flesh) was in the beginning (before creation) because flesh is composed of the stuff of creation. But the logos was in the beginning, and the logos is spirit, not flesh.

Iconodule

Christ is not the surname of Jesus (as if I were someone who didn't know that) it is a title meaning messiah, indicating Christ's unique position as the prophesised Jewish Messiah. Now once again i have to submit I see no reason for Distinguishing the Logos from Jesus himself within the text of the gospel. Now I'm not one saying Jesus was before all creation Jesus himself said it when he asked the father for glory.

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5.

Here even if you deny Christ as Creator, you cannot deny Christ existed before the creation event and I agree the Logos has spirit, this indeed the case, but as John says the Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us. John is indicating clearly that the Logos is Jesus and to argue otherwise would throw a monkey wrench into the entire gospel.

Fadl

The logos doesn't have spirit. The logos is spirit. If the logos 'had' spirit, this suggests two component parts of something, so what would the non spirit component be composed of since it existed even before creation? Naturally Jesus couldn't have created the world since his mother was physical (creation dependent) and so was Jesus (son of man). The logos created the world before there was Jesus, before the logos became flesh.

The Bible also says that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away." Notice that 'words' here is plural.

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God" + "...and the word became flesh" + "my words shall never pass away"

How are you at sums?

By the way, you talk about throwing a monkey wrench into the Gospel, but what about the entire Christian Bible? Jesus was not the only christ. Check for yourself. David was christ, Solomon was christ, and so was Cyrus, king of Persia.

Iconodule

As you can see in scripture Jesus existed before the foundations of this world, and he is directly called the Logos, please demonstrate from teh text taht John intended for the Logos to be something distinct from Christ? So you argument falls apart as you suggest (in contradiction to the bahai view) Jesus began to exist at a certain time when he was conceived of the Holy spirit and the Theotokos Virgin Mary. We have to recognise Jesus existed before this world. Also What is the Logos in your mind? Is it God? is it an abstract object? It seems to me the Apostle went through great pains to establish Christ as the Logos himself, the Logos is a person.

Now I know Messiah was used of others, but the status of Jesus as teh messiah is distinct from them, surely you know this. Yes they were annointed of God, kings and prophets of israel, lets not be silly here. But Jesus is THE Messsiah the one expected to fulfill all prophecies of the Old testament and that is how he is distinct from the older messiahs.

"He came unto his own: and his own received him not."

This seems indicate (still speaking of the Logos here) that the Logos is truely Jesus becase it identifies him as Jesus, clearly showing us the rejection of him by the Jews.

"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father),"

Now the word Begotten here to my knowledge is not what the actual word is, but what the actual word is, is Unique, the Unique son of God in otherwards. clearly it was teh Son of God, Jesus whom was made incarnate and that same son of God Jesus was the Logos as John and every Christian since has understood it.

There is no reason to suppose a fundamental difference between the Logos and Christ.

tonyfish58

Have a read of this - This explains creation wonderfully

Tablet of the Universe

Regards Tony

Fadl

Again, you are mixing terms, which makes it very difficult to discuss this in a clear and precise manner. Please try to hear what I am saying. It is not so strange as you may think.

I will respond directly to your comments piece by piece:

Jesus did not exist before the foundations of the world:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son"
-Mathew 1:23


"Shall conceive" is making a future prediction from the present time of the narrative. Since it is a future prediction about the conception of Jesus we can reasonably infer that the conception of Jesus has not yet occurred in the narrative. Does an unconceived child yet exist? There is not even the embryo yet.

"Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king"
Mathew 2:1

Since Herod is known to have lived 73/4 B.C. to 4 B.C. and Jesus was born during that time, is it not reasonable to assume that Jesus was born and conceived sometime after the foundation of the world?

Jesus was conceived of the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit, in the time of Herod the Great. Jesus was conceived and born of the flesh through a supernatural conception and a natural birth. There was not Jesus son of Mary before the conception of Mary through the Holy Spirit.

I don't dispute Jesus is called directly logos, or that the logos was with him. But I think the point you are missing is that there is a difference and distinction between Jesus son of Mary and Jesus son of God. Naturally both applied to Jesus, yet there is a distinction, and a duality to the reality of Christ Jesus. Jesus that was son of man, who was crucified and died, due to his human nature acquired through his mother and having an earthly and human body, else he could not have died at all. Then there is Jesus son of God, the eternal Christ, that was the logos "made flesh," and which was born not of Mary and of the flesh, but of the spirit, and which can never die.

So I don't think that John intended Logos something distinct from Christ, but I think the spiritual reality (logos) and physical reality (son of man) of Jesus are two distinct things which he possessed.

I should have said from the outset that I am sharing this Baha'is view and understanding, and do not imagine or pretend to be a spokesman or representative for Baha'i belief. That being said, I am speaking as a Baha'i and as someone who has been studying and practicing this faith 20 years, so I think it unlikely that I am contradicting Baha'i teachings and ask you to present evidence from the Baha'i writings if you are going to suggest such a thing.

Please read above for an explanation of my understanding about this.

In short, I would answer a qualified 'yes' two both points, however for a full answer to this I would be required to discuss in depth various passages from the Baha'i writings which would require as to discuss it at length. If you want to start a thread about the logos, perhaps that would be a better place for it.

Now you are saying that it was Christ who is the logos. That's sort of what I thought I was saying. You said the logos was Jesus, and that is what I think the issue is. The cup and the wine may come together, but they are not the same thing.

I'm not in disagreement about this at all, and I'm actually surprised that you have said this in exactly the same way I would. Many people seem to think "the messiah" means that Jesus was the only messiah when in fact it means exactly what you said: "the one expected to fulfill all prophecies of the Old testament."

If I were a Jew living at that time I could easily acknowledge that David and others of past ages were messiahs, but the messiah I'm waiting for is "my messiah," "the messiah" the one of this age.

I don't follow your meaning here, so no comment.

It is my understanding, and I am no scholar, that this bit about 'only begotten' came to be part of the scripture from a margin note, and not from the text. Most (as I understand it) modern Bibles that take advantage of the best scholarship available, no longer write "only begotten" since it is not actually found in the text itself. I stand ready to be corrected about this as it is something I heard recently and have not as of yet researched it in great depth. You may know much more about this than I do, or if not, I'm sure someone else on the forum may. But it is important to note that Jesus is not the only son of God in the Bible, and this was a common title for certain great persons and not peculiar to Jesus:

"the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives..."
-Genesis 6:2

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."
-Job 1:6

"Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah"
-Job 2:1

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.

Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?

Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,

When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
-Job 38:4-7

"...Adam, the son of God"
Luke 3:38

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."
Romans 8:14

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God"
-John 1:12

"Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are"
-1John 3:1

This list not all inclusive, but it is sufficient. How do you, therefore, understand the term "son of God" in light of scripture?

I don't see where we are in disagreement in the way you have stated it here.

BruceDLimber

Once again, you're confused (as reflected by your terminology):

God DOES NOT incarnate Himself, either in Jesus or anywhere else! I quote:

"God ... however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God-- both of which the utterances of Bahá'u'lláh emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose."

—(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 113)

Bruce

Iconodule

Now Fadl, conception does not imply that Jesus began to exist at that time. I don't see that especially if the Christian argument is true. But even the Bahai agree (at least from what some have told me on this forum) that the Manifestations were the first creations before this creation. Lets not assume naturalism, and take into context the entire Gospel, address John 17:5 which has Jesus asking the father for the glory he had with him before the world was, hence before he was incarnate on this earth, and address saint Paul whence he says that Jesus was equal to God but did not feel this equality to be grasped and let it go becoming a servant and then receiving it. You are ignoring saint John and Saint Paul in your eisegesis.
Now I had no idea the Bahai were nestorians who believed that there were two persons in Christ. This is basic adoptionism. Is this what you believe? That there was the man Jesus and the Spirit the Christ? Both distinct persons and not the same? That it was not Christ who died on the cross but Jesus the man?

Please define the Logos because the bahai belief (if you truely represent it is confusing) what is the Logos? Is it an abstract? Also how can an abstract become incarnate? What is the signifficance of the Logos becoming flesh yet not really being that flesh but somehow being part of Christ if the Logos didn't do anything?
And yes I am saying the Christ was Jesus and the Christ is the Logos as I see no distinction between these in the gospels? We don't see two people in the same body speaking? It simply doesn't exist, there is one person in the Gospels, Jesus Christ, whom is one person, not a Nestorian hyrbid of two people.
But in regards to understanding Jesus's position as the Unique son of God distinct from how it is used otherwise, read the parable of the wickard tenards and we see who Christ tells us he is, is the only son in this parable of the owner of the ternards while those sent before him were not the sons but rather servants, they represent the prophets. Jesus's position is unique in terms of him being a son of GOd.

InvestigateTruth

I don't think your statement is the Baha'i view.
As I understand, based on Abdulbaha's explaination in Some Answered questions, Jesus, has 3 stations, which is applicable to all Manifestations. One is the station of His Holy Reality, second the Holy indivisual reality (or rational soul) of Jesus, and third, the physical body of Jesus.
So, you are asking which one died? The Baha'i View is, the physical body of Jesus. Neither the Reality of Jesus, nor His rational soul died.

Now apply the same to Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah has 3 stations. The Holy Reality, the Rational Soul, and the Body.

What is exactly the same between Baha'u'llah and Jesus? Baha'i View; The Holy Reality.
What is different between Jesus and Baha'u'llah? their rational soul, and physical body.

What station of them always existed with God? their Holy Reality.
What station came to existance? their rational soul and physical body.
What is left of them? their rational souls and Holy Reality. But not their physical Bodies.

From Bible:
Jesus: Son of Man-----> Physical Body.
Jesus: Do not call me good, Only God is Good.-----> Rational Soul
Jesus: the father is in Me and I am in the Father ----> Holy Reality

"the Manifestations possess three conditions: the physical condition, the condition of the rational soul, and the condition of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor. The physical condition will certainly become decomposed, but the condition of the rational soul, though it has a beginning, has no end: nay, it is endowed with everlasting life. But the Holy Reality, of which Christ says, “The Father is in the Son,”† has neither beginning nor end." AbdulBaha, Some Answered Questions"

Iconodule

It seems to me the bahai need to define what they believe regarding this as I am utterly confused as to what is to be considered. Perhaps you ought have your own council of Nicea.

Because it seems to me some are telling me the Logos is not a person but some sort of attribute given to the manifestations which I quite simply dont see in the gospel of John. here is what I see in the gospel of John, there is the Logos which is eternal who is God and was with God (thus telling us their is distinctness within the Godhead), and that this Logos became flesh, do we see a differing in John's gospel any attempt to say the Logos isn't really Jesus? No In fact John seems to speak against that in John 17:5 having Christ directly tell us he existed before the world was with Glory with the Father. Saint Paul goes even further saying Jesus Christ was equal to God (no bahai I imagine would dare say a created individual was greater than God). Quite simply I have to submit the complex and almost convuleted nature of Bahai theology is a foreign product to the desciples, perhaps it was due to the apostles never actually understanding Jesus which would explain so much for the Bahai, even if it were hard to accept.

arthra

Iconodule:

It seems to me the bahai need to define what they believe regarding this as I am utterly confused as to what is to be considered. Perhaps you ought have your own council of Nicea.

Comment:

No.. I don't think we'll take you up on that.. We already have our recognized scriptures and interpretations but they're not the ones you may have learned in your catechism class.

Iconodule:

Because it seems to me some are telling me the Logos is not a person but some sort of attribute given to the manifestations which I quite simply dont see in the gospel of John.

Comment:

Logos is not a "person" aspect of God as in the orthodox trinity for us Baha'is.

Here are some excerpts:

The Manifestations of God, the Founders of the world's religions, are the Bearers of God's will and purpose to mankind. They are the logos - the Word of God. In them nothing can be seen but the Reality and the Light of God.

(H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah - The King of Glory, p. 166)



The present writer believes in the God-given mission of Muhammad. Islam and its Holy Book, the Qur'án, he believes to have represented God's purpose and guidance for mankind. The power of Muhammad, he believes, did not reside in human ingenuity, not in the production of supernatural feats, nor in the arraying of angels on the battlefield, but in the fundamental fact of His being the chosen Messenger of God, the vehicle of the Logos.

(H.M. Balyuzi, Muhammad and the Course of Islam, p. 3)

iconodule:

here is what I see in the gospel of John, there is the Logos which is eternal who is God and was with God (thus telling us their is distinctness within the Godhead), and that this Logos became flesh, do we see a differing in John's gospel any attempt to say the Logos isn't really Jesus? No In fact John seems to speak against that in John 17:5 having Christ directly tell us he existed before the world was with Glory with the Father.

Comment:

Baha'is recognize the attributes of God reflected in His Manifestations but not God incarnate as is taught in creeds of your church.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

- John 1:18

"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

- 1 John 4:12

Iconodule:

Saint Paul goes even further saying Jesus Christ was equal to God (no bahai I imagine would dare say a created individual was greater than God). Quite simply I have to submit the complex and almost convuleted nature of Bahai theology is a foreign product to the desciples, perhaps it was due to the apostles never actually understanding Jesus which would explain so much for the Bahai, even if it were hard to accept.

Comment:

I think Iconodule that maybe you are still think you are in your catechumen class and spouting things off here.. The disciples of Jesus were truly devoted to Him to their best ability but they were not like the theologians or church fathers that arose later in your church.

Here are some Pauline verses:

“All things are yours, and you are Christ's and Christ is God's.”

1 Cor. 3:23

"The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is a man and the the head of Christ is God.”

1 Cor 11:3

"For he has put all things under his feet. But when it says 'all things' have been put under him it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put all things under Christ. But when all things are under him then the son will be made subject to him who who put all thngs under him, in order that God be all in all." .

1 Cor 15:27-28

The above verses imply the subordination of Christ to God


"There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ."

1 Tim 2:5

Actually Baha'is accept that Christ is a mediator as a Manifestation of God.

LordOfGoblins

I am still not sure what Logos really means in terms of the Bahai context. I havnt seen it mentioned at all but I will do an ocean search when I get home maybe will come up with something.

LordOfGoblins

The concept of things having a duel nature or reality although at first seems weird and almost trinitarian like. I dont think those realities are separated entirely. Consider the duel nature of man. Mind and body and soul (if you consider a third aspect). But lets say we are all atheists then it is just mind and body. THe mind is as if it is existing in another realm entirely from the body. It has no place as Abdul'Baha says and it placesless, therfore it might be considered as a sign of the soul. Anyway even though those two are separate they are connected with the bodies brain.
As for the propets whether their rational soul is pre-existant, I had thought the answer was in fact yes... But I dont really know...
Back to some answered questions I think to discover the answer..

Iconodule

None of those verses contradict the trinitarian understand, perhaps a catechism class would allow you to see that, or even a basic study of the Trinity, but that is beyond your scope it would seem. But regardless, paul is quite clear Jesus is equal to God and hence gave up some of that to become incarnate like one of us.

And I am still not clear on what the Logos is. What is the Logos? Is it the collective manifestations as a whole? all infinite amount of them? Or is it an abstract object which we can associate with them? There seems to be no definite idea on this, so it makes discussion impossible. But needless to say we don't have this concept echoed in John's gospel, that the Logos is on all the Manifestations. How do we know this? Because John does not say the Logos became flesh and then proceede to speak about Abraham and Moses, but instead says the Logos was witnessed by John the Baptist whom told of Christs coming! So the concept of the logos in bahai cnanot possibly be in line with John's as he does not tell us the Logos cam before as Moses and Abraham.

LordOfGoblins

Note that the duel or three fold nature of the manifestations talked about above that resembles the trinity is talking about a MAN and not about GOD. THat is a cruicial difference. We do not bring God into our realm of categories which is by nature a defficient way of trying to describe something which cannot be catagorised by the human mind (the infinite reality of God).

LordOfGoblins

ANyway it's pretty much explained here...
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 151-153

tonyfish58

This question takes a lot of study and contemplation

Currently I am thinking about this quote in relation to this question, to me it explains as you have said above "the Word or Logos"

"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification".

To me this above quote refers to all the Prophets. It then continues..

'Thus the suns of the praise of the one true God moved resplendent in a vast, infinite space, capable neither of being defined by limits nor contained within the compass of signs and allusions. All praise be to Him Who was its Author and Creator, Who spread it out, and adorned it with countless lamps and never-fading luminaries: 'None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him' (Qur'an, 74:31). He made the circuits of these luminous divine orbs to be their lofty and celestial spheres; and He made the bodies of these spiritual spheres to be subtle and soft, flowing and liquid, undulating and vibrating, in such manner that these refulgent orbs swim in the circumferences of the spheres, and move in their vast space by the aid of their Creator and Maker, their Ordainer and Fashioner".

This above quote to me shows how the prophets are all linked and then in the following quote, to me it shows how this started spreading out in the what we know as existance

"Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens. For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds. By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine. In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive proof. Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures can affirm of Him or attribute to Him".

So as you have said above "it was through the Logos that God created the world?" I would have to agree. The Trick is not to get caught up with a particular name. When I speak of Christ in view of the above, I actually speak about all the Prophets.


The next quote shows how big it all is

"Know then that the all-embracing framework that governs existence includes within its compass every existent being - particular or universal - whether outwardly or inwardly, secretly or openly. Just as particulars are infinite in number, so also universals, on the material plane, and the great realities of the universe are without number and beyond computation. The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils".

Regards Tony