armin

There sure is a distinguishing line between finding someone beautiful and sexually attractive. When one reaches the station Baha'u'llah describes in Jimhabegger's post one sees God's beauty in everything! At this stage when one finds someone beautiful one praises God and His creation. Where we all are, I assume, we consciously or subconsciously connect someones beauty with selfish desire to somehow have or be connected with that beauty! In my view it is not necessarily about sexual desires, but obviously sexual desire is one of the most manifest desires in humans and so it is used as an all encompassing example for all kinds of desires, but about any desire whatsoever. To me Baha'u'llah is describing the level of detachment we can possess and show.

One may ask what if one just wants to be friends with that most beautiful human. If we look deep inside we can all answer the question of why we want to be friend with that person. From what I understand when one is in that station, then one befriends others to give not to receive anything. I hope I made sense.

jimhabegger

I was responding to possible objections that it would be unhealthy never to have any sexual desires or experiences at all before marriage. I thought about that, and considering other qualities besides chastity, generosity for example, I thought of how children go through stages of learning in which their behavior is contrary to one virtue or another.

Selfishness, for example. Some behavior which would be called selfishness in an adult, is normal and healthy for a child at some stage in its development. That might not be a good example, and maybe everyone doesn't even agree with the idea. I haven't searched yet to see if it's a Baha'i principle. It's just based on my own experience and what I've read. Some behavior which would be wrong or unhealthy for adults is an indispensable part of child development.

Examples of activities we would call "sexual" in adults, which seem harmless to me and possibly even an essential part of child development, are playing "doctor" and "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." I see a possibility that, later on, experimenting with the new capacities that come with puberty could be an indispensable part of human development, and part of the foundation of healthy marriages.

I'm not sure it would be. I'm only saying that my understanding of what Baha'u'llah means by perfect chastity does not necessarily exclude some sexual experimentation around the age of puberty.

jimhabegger

It makes beautiful sense to me. I like the point that it's really about all desires, not just sexual desires. In my understanding of Baha'u'llah's vision of a healthy society, human relationships will not be corrupted by any pursuit of self-gratification, sexual or otherwise, even in the process of choosing a marriage partner.

LordOfGoblins

I guess I would agree with this up to a certain degree. It is just when you write that statement that you did in the Bahai framework it certainly gives a impression you are sortof encouraging sexual experimentation in early teen years which is a comment that could easily be considered as encouraging old world decadence given the state of the times (with many teen pregnancies etc).
I personally dont think this is stuff we should emphasise as Bahais. We are all subject to weeknesses but I dont see sexual experimentation as a real significant part of peeoples development within the Bahai writings. Perhaps coming from a socialogical perspective though such statements might make a fair bit of sense. Thank you for clarifying this though.

LordOfGoblins

Some pretty thought provoking insight here.
I have a couple of questions for you though since it seems you have thought of this before.
Is it wrong or less pure to be attracted to someone because of their beauty?
Not even in a sexual way but perhaps because their beauty as you say 'makes you want to connect with them'.
I ask this because I have heard that in the Bahai writings it says that attraction to beauty is a part of people who are receptive to the faith (not sure where in the writings that that is from though).

armin

It certainly is not wrong. Is it in a lower station from what Baha'u'llah has described? Maybe! The way I see it all the answers lie deep inside ourselves. If we look and search deep inside we will know why we are attracted to a certain thing or person. For example, in case of a truly beautiful woman, even though one is sure no sexual desire is present, could it be that the attracting force one feels is because of something like 'how people will perceive us as the one who is the partner of a true beauty'!? If desires of this sort are involved then you could say in a sense it's wrong since it doesn't fit the description Baha'u'llah has made, in my view of course. If we are honest with ourselves then we can unravel many mysteries we never thought existed! At that point one can become his own judge and decide whether the connecting force is aroused from personal desires or maybe it is a sign! a calling from God that we need to hearken!

jimhabegger

I hope it's okay to respond to something that wasn't addressed to me.

I regret to confess that faces and figures have always had a big influence on which women attracted my interest the most. I don't know what to think about it being wrong or less pure, maybe so, but mostly I see it as unfair. Of course cleanliness and grooming and an artistic appearance can be a reflection of character, but to me it seems manifestly unfair, for some people to get more attention than others just because of their face and physique.

I would think that the "attraction to beauty" that you're referring to is about beauty of character, and that the "desire for her beauty" in the other quote is about surface appearances.

Were you thinking of one of these?

"Those who declare themselves as Bahá'ís should become enchanted with the beauty of the teachings, and touched by the love of Bahá'u'lláh."

(The Universal House of Justice, Wellspring of Guidance, Messages 1963-1968, p. 32)

"It behoveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God's invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 27)

"His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 71)

"How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 94)

"It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 143)

Rani

You didn't address this to me either Log, but if I can say, Baha'u'llah does advise us to choose someone who is 'pleasing' to us. Now I don't think he really goes into detail about that, but I believe it's normal and fine to choose a partner who we find pleasing in various ways.. whether it is physically (that is not bad), emotionally, intellectually, mentally (that is, that they be sound and well-balanced etc)..
Oh! and that you find them spiritually pleasing of course.
(Hmm, sounds like a tall order. lol).

LoG also wrote: 'I ask this because I have heard that in the Bahai writings it says that attraction to beauty is a part of people who are receptive to the faith (not sure where in the writings that that is from though.'

Are you sure?? I can't think of anything, except, 'Obey Me for the love of My beauty', which of course refers to the spiritual attributes of God.

jimhabegger

That's a good point, Rani, and it reminds me of something.

"In the mountains, as in the wilderness, the animal's physician is the power of taste and smell. The sick animal smells the plants that grow in the wilderness; he eats those that are sweet and fragrant to his smell and taste, and is cured. The cause of his healing is this. When the sugar ingredient has become diminished in his constitution, he begins to long for sweet things; therefore, he eats an herb with a sweet taste, for nature urges and guides him; its smell and taste please him, and he eats it. The sugar ingredient in his nature will be increased, and health will be restored."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 258)

It doesn't work that way for us, because our appetites have been so corrupted by social illnesses, but I imagine in a healthy society, our appetites would guide us in the same way.

It might be the same way with choosing a marriage partner. When people's interests in each other are not so corrupted by social illnesses, a person might naturally be more attracted by people who would be better marriage partners for them. I don't mean so much physically, although I wouldn't exclude that. I mean, people might be attracted to personalities that would make better marriage partners for them, and of course in a healthy society people would be seeing each other's real personalities, and not the masquerades we see today.

jimhabegger

Yeah, I understand that. What I mean by "experimentation" would certainly not include physical union between fertile partners. I would think not physical union at all.

jimhabegger

Maybe it would make more sense to say that in a healthy society, people would not be influenced by sexual desires at all, in their relationships with each other, rather than saying they would never have those desires. Even considering people as possible marriage partners, people would not be influenced by any sexual desires for those people.

That might come around to the same thing, though. Sexual desires might fade away in a person who is never influenced by them, and/or people might learn not to have them, as the best way to not be influenced by them.

jimhabegger

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the chastity that Baha'u'llah says is a measure of His "true follower" is impossible, and always will be?

I'm understanding "desire" as sexual arousal. A true follower of Baha'u'llah will not feel sexually aroused at all by the sight of any woman.

A week or two ago, after I started this thread, I tried an experiment. We are continually immersed in an ocean of sexual stimulants, and I've always been sexually aroused by some of that. Magazine covers, advertisements, miniskirts up to there, etc. I've tried off and on to resist looking and enjoying it, and never completely succeeded. I've seen that quote many times in my life, but this was the first time I really faced up to it. After I started this discussion, I was curious to see if I could just choose not to be aroused. It worked the first time I tried it, and it's been working ever since. I found out I can just ignore it, and not feel anything at all.

Of course you can easily pass it off as a result of my age. Or, you can try it yourself, with your heart in it, to see what happens.

cire perdue

I am going out on a limb here to say that to be desireless is probably as impossible as being ego-less. To say one has no desire for anyone else can be true in the sense that one has not enough desire for it to affect one's self or someone else in negative way. This Faith has never espoused aceticism, but in comparison to today's norms of sexual expression, a Baha'i in a faithful loving marriage is comparatively and effectively desireless for anyone else.

It would seem to me that we are talking about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin when we start talking about being desireless. I say there are normal levels of desire that are part of everyday functioning that are probably subliminal or inconsequential. IF you start worrying about being desireless, then the impulse to compliment someone's appearance could be construed as having desire.

To get too literal about any of the teachings is to become similar to fundamentalists and extremists who confuse piety with faith. I do not say this to compromise values whatsoever, but I do point out that the letter of the law is effective at a much lower bar than being totally desireless or having no ego which is where this discussion and others tend. To be desireless in one area is impossible. Sexual desire as aptly pointed out bleeds over into beauty. You would have to eliminate all desire to get rid totally of desire in one aspect of life. So it is NOT possible to be totally void of desire for others. IT is a a matter of degrees. Baha'is lives are not governed by unmortified passions..............WE live by moderation.

Rani

And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 118)


You know, this quote, that you quoted above, does not say not to feel desire. It actually says for the man to *not let his heart be seduced* by the desire.

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again.. I think that chastity in no way means absence of desire. Not at all!! Because having normal physical impulses is a part of being a human being. We can have sexual feelings that are not directed toward any other human being.
We can have sexual feelings of arousal, and still be chaste, because chastity is about our behaviour and our thoughts. Having a normal sex drive does not make a person unchaste!
We are not meant to be in denial about sexual impulses but to be in control of them and of ourselves.


Back to the quote, I think it involves being detached.. To not let his heart be seduced by the..desire for her beauty..
If you are single, I think it is healthy to recognise if you have an attraction to someone, even a sexual one if they are single and we are too. But by being detached from the desires.. It means not thinking of the woman as an object, but as a whole human being who might be a potential partner.
If she cannot be a partner, don't allow yourself to think that way about her.

You might admire the beauty, -but not lust after her. To admire spiritual beauty is more important of course.

Regarding mini-skirts and what not, can't you just avert the eyes?

And a quote for fun and interest:

A good character is in the sight of God and His chosen ones and the possessors of insight, the most excellent and praiseworthy of all things, but always on condition that its center of emanation should be reason and knowledge and its base should be true moderation. Were the implications of this subject to be developed as they deserve the work would grow too long and our main theme would be lost to view.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 59)

Rani

And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 118)


For simplicity I'm re-posting a short version of my post.

The quote, that you quoted above, does not say not to feel desire. It actually says for the man to *not let his heart be seduced* by the desire.

Which again, doesn't mean not to feel them, but to be detached from them, and not to lust after others of course. But recognition or awareness of attraction, and lust are two different things I think.
The latter is probably to only think of the animal side.

cire perdue

All else is aceticism and not practical. This is NOT an excuse. It is also not about averting the eyes. The detached eye can see the legs in that mini-skirt and not respond or react. Rani makes the best sense so far. THANK YOU! That is why it important to look at the Writings ourselves. GOOD JOB!

jimhabegger

Everything I say is in a context of loving and trusting Baha'u'llah, and learning to follow Him. If it's viewed in any other context, it will be misunderstood.

Rani

I'm not sure what you mean above Jim.. I didn't say anything about not trusting or loving Baha'u'llah and I'm quite sure no-one else did.

It seems to me that teachings about chastity are pretty straightforward really. It means that if you are married for example, you don't allow yourself to think sexually about another woman, because it is not appropriate. It's not appropriate because it's not loving either. We're not meant to look at anyone as objects. And it's not loving because we would want to be faithful to our spouse and not betray their trust. And we ought to treat other human beings with dignity and not use images of them as playthings.

We should treat them as noble human beings. I'm just not sure I see why this is such a difficult subject to understand. (?)

I don't know.. If I see a handsome man, it does nothing for me, absolutely nothing, if there is no chance of a relationship. What would be the point of thinking about him if there is no chance of anything happening? It wouldn't be appropriate.

cire perdue

I don't think we are being asked to do something that is not already being done by Baha'is, Christians, and peoples of other religions with the same values. It is not extraordinary except when contrasted with today's values which are frightening. It is NOT NEW. The same values have been previously lived by.

Rani

And what is confusing Jim is that in your posts you have talked about how a man should not ever desire another woman b4 marriage etc, or after it; however in other posts you have indicated that you believe that after adolescence (if we are healthy) we will basically have no libido.
And this second part I believe is very erroneous.

I think part of the difficulty with this conversation is that you so often seem to equate sexual desire with thinking of another particular person in a sexual way, but what I have tried to communicate many times is that this is not the case!! You can totally be aware of sexual appetite/desire but be chaste in behaviour and thought.

Our sex hormones are not just for sexual function; we actually need them to be healthy. The girl I knew without ovaries.. Well, that was discovered because she was unusually short -shorter than her sisters. Hormones help our bones, our growth, our brain, our normal development. As adults too, we need them to be healthy.

I think some people need to relax. ! ;- I am never saying that we shouldn't strive for purity in our lives and in our thoughts.
Even Shoghi Effendi said random thoughts are not blameworthy. It's what we do with them that counts.
I posted on this thread because it really seems that you have been saying that we should have no libido or sexual impulses outside of adolescence or marriage, but this is just not real, and I think is a misinterpretation of the quote you posted.

Rani

I'm posting this apt quote again..

The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 344)

jimhabegger

And you posted it out of context again.

"The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 363)

Plus, I have never said anything about suppressing it.

jimhabegger

Everything I say is in a context of loving and trusting Baha'u'llah, and learning to follow Him.

It's learning to follow Baha'u'llah, not for any reward, or for fear of being punished or judged, but just for its own sake, just because of how I feel about Baha'u'llah, I just want to learn to follow Him. Everything I say is in that context.

In my understanding, part of following Baha'u'llah is sustained and systematic efforts to improve our character and conduct, part of that is improving our qualities and virtues, and one of those is chastity. I don't think it means working on all qualities and virtues all the time, but I do think it means continually working on one or more qualities, to improve them.

I do see some priorities in the Advent of divine justice:

"Of these spiritual prerequisites of success, which constitute the bedrock on which the security of all teaching plans, Temple projects, and financial schemes, must ultimately rest, the following stand out as preeminent and vital, which the members of the American Bahá'í community will do well to ponder. Upon the extent to which these basic requirements are met, and the manner in which the American believers fulfill them in their individual lives, administrative activities, and social relationships, must depend the measure of the manifold blessings which the All-Bountiful Possessor can vouchsafe to them all. These requirements are none other than a high sense of moral rectitude in their social and administrative activities, absolute chastity in their individual lives, and complete freedom from prejudice in their dealings with peoples of a different race, class, creed, or color."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 21)

"Dearly beloved friends! A rectitude of conduct which, in all its manifestations, offers a striking contrast to the deceitfulness and corruption that characterize the political life of the nation and of the parties and factions that compose it; a holiness and chastity that are diametrically opposed to the moral laxity and licentiousness which defile the character of a not inconsiderable proportion of its citizens; an interracial fellowship completely purged from the curse of racial prejudice which stigmatizes the vast majority of its people -- these are the weapons which the American believers can and must wield in their double crusade, first to regenerate the inward life of their own community, and next to assail the long-standing evils that have entrenched themselves in the life of their nation. The perfection of such weapons, the wise and effective utilization of every one of them, more than the furtherance of any particular plan, or the devising of any special scheme, or the accumulation of any amount of material resources, can prepare them for the time when the Hand of Destiny will have directed them to assist in creating and in bringing into operation that World Order which is now incubating within the worldwide administrative institutions of their Faith."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 40)

Different followers of Baha'u'llah, in different circumstances, will be working on different qualities. The point of discussing a quality for me is not to make judgements about what anyone is doing, or should be doing. It's to help each other think about what where we're going. The point of holding up a standard is not for anyone to feel bad about not measuring up to it. It's to see where we're going.

jimhabegger

Agreed.

Rani

I don't believe I posted out of context.. It says what it says. It applies whether we're married or not, -we are not meant to suppress the sex instinct.

Well, when you give the impression that we are not meant to have any desires after adolescence, or outside of marriage, it seems to me that that would require suppression, which means to subdue or quell.
Or to be in denial about them.

jimhabegger

"Thus man must strive that his reality may manifest virtues and perfections, the light whereof may shine upon everyone."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 445)

The whole point for me here, is not whether there's anything blameworthy in anyone's feelings or actions. The point is, what is the standard? What are we striving for, if and when we strive to improve our chastity? What is the standard we are holding up to the world?

I'm suggesting that this illustrates the standard:

"Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Baha who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity.... And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 118)

Considering that more carefully now, I would go beyond what I said before. Not only would he not feel sexually aroused, he would not feel drawn to her at all, in any way, because of her beauty. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes, and it adds to my wonder and awe at the transformation of society ahead of us. I get a glimpse of a wealth of possibilities that it will open up in human relationships and in the advancement of civilization, to be free of those distractions.

That's my understanding. Other people might understand it differently, and that's fine. That's independent investigation and individual interpretation.

"A clear distinction is made in our Faith between authoritative interpretation and the interpretation or understanding that each individual arrives at for himself from his study of its teachings. While the former is confined to the Guardian, the latter, according to the guidance given to us by the Guardian himself, should by no means be suppressed. In fact such individual interpretation is considered the fruit of man's rational power and conducive to a better understanding of the teachings, provided that no disputes or arguments arise among the friends and the individual himself understands and makes it clear that his views are merely his own."

(The Universal House of Justice, 1966 May 27, Guardianship and the UHJ)

"So, although individual insights can be enlightening and helpful, they can also be misleading. The friends must therefore learn to listen to the views of others without being overawed or allowing their faith to be shaken, and to express their own views without pressing them on their fellow Bahá'ís."

(The Universal House of Justice, 1966 May 27, Guardianship and the UHJ)

"There is also an important distinction made in the Faith between authoritative interpretation, as described above, and the interpretation which every believer is fully entitled to voice. Believers are free, indeed are encouraged, to study the Writings for themselves and to express their understanding of them. Such personal interpretations can be most illuminating, but all Bahá'ís, including the one expressing the view, however learned he may be, should realize that it is only a personal view and can never be upheld as a standard for others to accept, nor should disputes ever be permitted to arise over differences in such opinions."

(The Universal House of Justice, 1982 Jan 03, Teaching vs. Proselytizing)

jimhabegger

i think that sometimes in this discussion I've depreciated other people's understanding of that passage, and that was wrong. I'm sorry.

LordOfGoblins

THis is one of those quotes that I guess people can speculate till the cows come home.
I think though the key is 'spotless chastity'. That to me sounds like a highly developed perfection. Sortof like 'deep wisdom' or 'unparalleled fortitude'.
That being the case I do not see this quality as something many Bahais if any will ever reach. I also dont know why JimHabegger thinks that in the future the Bahais will become more chaste, than the current Bahais? But in any case I dont see this quote as applying across the board of general people. And as for your story of telling yourself something does attract you and then not feeling attraction cos you told yourself not to, well I also think that is not related to attaining the state Baha'u'llah is talking about...
If people could just switch the desire off when they wanted it might mean that perfections are a lot easier to attain than the writings suggest.
I can now just suddenly become a perfect and chaste man.

LordOfGoblins

And now, concerning His words: "And He shall send His angels...." By "angels" is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. That holy man, Sadiq,[1] in his eulogy of the Cherubim, saith: "There stand a company of our fellow-Shi'ihs behind the Throne." Divers and manifold are the interpretations of the words "behind the Throne." In one sense, they indicate that no true Shi'ihs exist. Even as he hath said in another passage: "A true believer is likened unto the philosopher's stone." Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: "Hast thou ever seen the philosopher's stone?" Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the non-existence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Sadiq. And now consider, how unfair and numerous are those who, although they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of belief, have condemned as infidels those by whose word belief itself is recognized and established.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 78)

IndistinctDreamer

Funny this topic is being discussed. Recently I had been looking into marriage laws, chastity, dating, parental consent etc.

I have under recent times undergone changes in my view on chastity, I use to view it as not having sex outside of marriage however in recent lights have also come to understand that we should not
masturbate (I knew this connected to vain imaginings but never under the context of chastity),
read/listen or watch anything that can lead to such desires.
I initially thought it would be very challenging to cast away such thoughts but have overtime come to see that it is quite simple. So long as I have a concious awareness and remain in a state of prayer I have found I do not need to cast away such desires as they simple do not come up.
Of course occasional one breaks through the barrier and as strong as the urges may be I have realised it is a very momentary thing, one moment passes and the desire is gone and I've been able to continue to live in chastity.
To be completely honest what prompted this change for me would be the realisation that you cannot be chase if you masturbate regardless of whether you actually have sex or not. If only society had not been such a burden in my younger years and had allowed my soul to remain unsullied , but what can you do. My love for god and a certain individual is I suppose what prevents me from straying from the path, the realisation that these thoughts and actions although not as severe as having sex outside of marriage are not all that different in nature.

Here are a few links if anyone's interested. Not sure if they have been mentioned already as I haven't read the thread in its entirety.

http://www.bahairelationships.com/Wo...toMarriage.pdf

http://www.bahaimarriage.net/Datinga...aha'is.pdf

http://www.bahaimarriage.net/Parenta...anuary2011.pdf