jimhabegger

"My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

"When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in Iraq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.

"Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Baha who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity.... And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 117)

In my understanding of Baha'i teachings, perfect chastity excludes not only all sexual intimacy, but also all sexual desire, outside of the marriage prescribed by God. No sexual desire at all for anyone, before marriage, and after marriage no sexual desire at all for anyone but one's husband or wife.

In my understanding, the partners in the marriage prescribed by God can only be a man and a woman, and although God "doeth whatsoever He willeth," I don't imagine that will ever change, in any dispensation.

I reached that understanding by studying everything I could find in Baha'i writings, and in the Bible, about marriage. One thing that came through very clearly from that study is that the kind of physical union that can produce children is, and always has been, part of the definition of marriage in the books of God, if not the definition.

That might be something that could be argued back and forth from now to eternity, taking extracts from scriptures out of context, so I won't try to convince anyone who doesn't agree with it. I only invite people to do their own investigation, studying everything they can find in the scriptures about marriage, and considering it all together as a whole. Look at the marriage laws, and try to imagine applying them to two women or two men.

Some things to consider:

1. When God bids us to marry, He says the purpose is to bring forth children.

2. God refers to the partners as "husband" and "wife," and some of the marriage laws distinguish between them in ways that can not possibly be applied interchangeably. The dowry is one example.

In more than ten years of friendly discussions with people of all persuasions, all the people I've known who see God, creator of the universe, as a reality, actually communicating with us through His messengers, who take God's Revelation as their supreme standard of truth, of right and wrong, have agreed that the partners in the marriage prescribed by God can only be a man and a woman.

Orthodox

Its wrong to say we must marry, period.

Rani

Dear Orthodox,

I'd like to please assure you that it doesn't say in the Baha'i Writings that we must marry. It is regarded as a strong exhortation, but it is not mandatory by any means.
Hope this verse helps.

'While marriage is enjoined in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Bahá'u'lláh
clarifies that it is not obligatory (Q and A 46). Shoghi
Effendi, in a letter written on his behalf, also declared that
"marriage is by no means an obligation", and he affirmed
that "in the last resort, it is for the individual to decide
whether he wishes to lead a family life or live in a state of
celibacy". If a person has to wait a considerable period of
time before finding a spouse, or ultimately must remain
single, it does not mean that the individual is thereby
unable to fulfil his or her life's purpose, which is
fundamentally spiritual.'

(The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 206)

I think it would easy to assume that most people have a normal desire to marry, but in this day and age it's not always so straightforward.

cire perdue

Jimhabegger says, "In my understanding of Baha'i teachings, perfect chastity excludes not only all sexual intimacy, but also all sexual desire, outside of the marriage prescribed by God. No sexual desire at all for anyone, before marriage, and after marriage no sexual desire at all for anyone but one's husband or wife."

Though I think the no desire, because desire will be part of normal attraction when courting, at all pushes it a bit, (like expecting to have no ego which I do not believe is possible while living), I do agree, but that requires being raised by good parents in a healthy environment, and not being affected by society whose normal everyday sexual values are actually obscene and seem to have been formulated by sex addicts. That quote seems like an extremist expectation, however I know it is not unaccomplishable and is not that difficult or unrealistic. That is the battle in this day and age, to make that understood as a realistic and desireable goal. It also requires understanding love is more important than sex and that sex is really, really not as important as it is made out to be, however it sure does sell things, doesn't it? I don't think desire is an enemy, I do think it is passion that must mortified. We must not be run about by our unmortified passions.

I just don't want to focus on having no desire at all. In a healthy society maybe that would be more comphrehensible than it is right now. I think if one does have desires one has not failed especially relative to where one has come from. Once impure one is proabably never going to be able to go to absolute purity except by the Grace of God. For example a sin to a saint is progress for a sinner. This could be a slippery slope that I do not mean it to be. Society will not suddenly change, it will have to progress. My point is it is a process not a destination for an individual or society. Love needs to be more important than sex in society which has so much confused and lost.

It ought to be implied in family values that this is part of this Faith. Over emphasis of some of our teachings can make us sound like ascetics which we are not. A good marriage is a highly spiritual attainment.

Rani

I was going to say something similar, CP.

I think to say that we should have no sexual desire ever unless or until we marry is extremely unrealistic and even unhealthy -yes unhealthy.. And I say this with the utmost respect.

Just because we might have sexual desires does *not* mean that we are automatically thinking about another person sexually anyhow. This is my main point.

For any healthy human being -unless they are on a death bed, some normal desire is a part of being human. I mean, it might be like hunger for food. It is not at all wrong, rather it is how we handle it.
We are not meant to be in denial about having any sexual desire, but we are just called to be in control of our desires.
Again, a person can have sexual desires and not be thinking about any other human being in particular. It is simply a biological urge that we have been created to have.

We are meant to keep our secret thoughts pure, but I believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with being in touch with one's own feelings, and I know I would want to know whether I am attracted to a prospective spouse. -This is just about being in touch with how I feel.

Whether it was the House of Justice or Shoghi Effendi, I'm not sure, but it is said that we are not meant to repress sexual desires but to control them.

And also, I think, living in such an environment where there is constant reference to sexuality in TV etc, there might be great harm done to young people if they feel bad even for having sexual feeling. Again, desire is *not* a bad thing, -people should not feel ashamed for this in the slightest -God made us with them -it is how we direct it!

Living a pure life does not mean that a person is devoid of normal physical feelings whether it be hunger, or sexual appetite.

LordOfGoblins

I think marraige is something we should strive for. But if we miss our chance or things dont go well for us that stops us from marrying then what can you do? THats life and sometimes circumstances works against us and we are ultimately at Gods mercy really.

cire perdue

It is possible to be urgeless and desireless. I have known it at times, but once contaminated it is very difficult. Being desireless or even considering that state in the current world is next to impossible or feels that way, however we hardly have opportunities to be aware of it, because those who attain this are quiet about it and go about their lives without dramatizing.

I don't think the aim of the Teachings is that we be desireless, as that is aceticism, and I practiced that before I became a Baha'i. I do think that if, IF we are living the life then one does become desireless as a result. I still say if it comes to the mind and it is against a Baha'i life then let it pass by. I say there is no feeling, urge, or desire that can occurr that is "wrong", what we do with it, act on, is what is wrong. If we do not act on it then we have won the battle, but to win the war one should be able to lessen these urges. To do that one must absolutely accept that they are there, that of course they are there, look where I have come from, then let it go by. It will get better.

In today's world it is very hard to put the importance of sex in perspective. Media and entertainment would have one believe it is probably the most important thing there is, but it really, really isn't. To change that view one would have to come to accept that sex is just not all it seems to be or delivers anything truly worthwhile. After all sex is NOT love.

Baha'is do not seek to be desireless as a practice. Our practices lead us to become desireless. Aceticism seeks desirelessness.

Rani

Ooh.. forgive me, but that sounds colourless, and yes, even like asceticsm to me.
-not accusing you of being an ascetic though.

When talking on this subject I prefer the teaching that we should not suppress the impulse, but rather, be in control of ourselves.

The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 344)

I don't see being desireless as something positive to be honest. To not be bothered by one's desires, yes that is positive.
To have normal (sexual) desires normally means that a person is in good physical health. And I hope that we can agree that it is optimal that a person is in good physical and social health, and of course as baha'is we aim to live pure lives and be in control of any such desires.

jimhabegger

"And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity."

- Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 118

I don't see how something that God extols in such terms can possibly be unhealthy, and I don't think God uses words recklessly. I imagine "least shadow of desire" means "least shadow of desire."

I agree that it isn't a matter of repressing or denying those desires. Chastity is something to learn over time, and one of the fruits of the spirit.
Exactly.

I've read that quote many times over the years, but a few days ago was the first time I really faced up to it. I started wondering how hard it would be to reach that state, so I did some experimenting, and I was amazed at how easy it was!

We are constantly immersed in an ocean of sexual stimulation, but I found out yesterday that I can simply ignore it, and not feel anything at all. I tried it today: Seeing bare legs that I always thought I couldn't help getting excited about, I just ignored them, and bingo! Nothing. Zero.

It might be that the number one obstacle to people learning chastity is the idea that there's something wrong with it.

I do think that experiencing sexual desires, and even some sexual experimentation, is a normal and indispensable part of human development. Thinking about how it might be in the future, I imagine that being a stage of development in early adolescence; then a person would gradually learn to ignore those impulses, and they would disappear until a person marries.

"It must be remembered, however, that the maintenance of such a high standard of moral conduct is not to be associated or confused with any form of asceticism, or of excessive and bigoted puritanism."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 33)

My understanding of asceticism is a whole way of life that revolves around self-denial. Saying that our standard is not to be associated or confused with any form of asceticism, doesn't mean that our standards won't ever look extreme to anyone. Our standard of right and wrong is Baha'u'llah, not anyone's personal feelings about what seems excessive, or what we think we need to experience with someone before we marry, no matter how popular those views might be.

"Chastity implies both before and after marriage an unsullied, chaste sex life. Before marriage absolutely chaste, after marriage absolutely faithful to one's chosen companion. Faithful in all sexual acts, faithful in word and in deed."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 360)

"The Bahá'í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 344)

That says that the proper use of the sex instinct is in marriage. The regulation and control is that it is restricted to marriage.

"Each must, however, exercise the utmost care to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of the other ..."

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 442)

Sexual desires can actually interfere with that.

Again, I don't think it's a matter of repressing or denying those feelings. I imagine that in the future, after a short time of experiencing those feelings in early adolescence people will learn not to feel them any more, until after they're married. It isn't like they will be hard to revive again after the marriage.

Think about it. Imagine all the social problems and complications in life that would disappear.

Again, this could be argued back and forth for years, taking quotes out of context. Each person needs to investigate for himself, and study all the writings about marriage and chastity, in the context of a life devoted to learning to serving Baha'u'llah's purposes. in accordance with His prescriptions.

cire perdue

I repeat that not having sexual desires results from right practice and this lack of desire is NOT, NOT, NOT the goal of practice. IT is a side effect of practicing living the Baha'i life. If one is NOT in sexual turmoil, then I say they are living the life. This aspect of the quotes can be sweated too much.

The quotes scare the whiskers off me, because in today's context them seem so extreme, but in the confines of a warm loving marriage that has resulted from a Baha'i life it is a no brainer. Nobody sat around trying to become desireless, it happens.

cire perdue

QUOTE: Again, I don't think it's a matter of repressing or denying those feelings. I imagine that in the future, after a short time of experiencing those feelings in early adolescence people will learn not to feel them any more, until after they're married. It isn't like they will be hard to revive again after the marriage. QUOTE

We can't imagine it for now, can we? I know someone who is in this state, to the extent by today's standards he thought there was something wrong with him, that he could be gay. He is simply NOT sexual despite his young age. He does not practice any sexuality so is not faced with it. WOW! He is so set up for a good marriage. I am sure this is more common than we realize.

cire perdue

I venture to say that all Baha'is, ALL of US, have suffered damage as a result of how this world is right now. I am surprised how clear many of us are about it however.

Having urges can be helped with peers who accept and understand................

Eric

I remember sitting in a classroom and the teacher said that there are some people who are not interested in sex at all. This caused a lot of surprised reactions, people just couldn't believe it. I was fascinated by seeing these responses my class. Anyway, it is called Asexual (sometimes refered to as Nonsexual).

And I agree with Cire that we are all scarred by how the world is right now, I certainly have.

cire perdue

Asexual is how they term someone who may be healthy, because they aren't acting unhealthy. That person may be waiting for true love and marriage, huh?

Rani

One point I tried to make, is that I believe a person can recognise physical or sexual impulses within the self.. just like hunger for food..

This doesn't mean that this impulse has to have been brought about by visual stimuli, or by the desire for any particular person.
Just as you know you might be hungry for food, but you are not coveting or thinking about any particular food. In fact you can be quite detached from it.

I'm not talking about lusting after another human being.
Recognition and awareness of normal sexual desire does not equate to having impure thoughts, or doesn't have to.

jimhabegger

Sustained and systematic efforts to perfect our chastity might be in the path of service for some of us. It looks to me now like they're in my path of service.

I think that continual, deliberate, sustained and systematic efforts to improve our character and conduct are at the heart and center of everyone's purpose in life, an inescapable responsibility, without which all discussions about the Baha'i Faith, including Internet discussions, are worse than useless, in fact harmful to the cause of God. At the heart of improving our character and conduct are efforts to acquire virtues, and chastity is one of the virtues that Shoghi Effendi named as the most vital and urgent needs of the American Baha'i Community, requiring "constant scrutiny, continual self-examination and heart-searching on their part."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 20)

"Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching -- no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character -- not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abha Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá'u'lláh."

(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 66)

For some time, the Baha'i Faith had a very good image and reputation in leading peace and justice movements. Times have changed. Seeing how we are being maligned because of our standards, I see now how prophetic were these words of Shoghi Effendi:

"In the conduct of this twofold crusade the valiant warriors struggling in the name and for the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh must, of necessity, encounter stiff resistance, and suffer many a setback. Their own instincts, no less than the fury of conservative forces, the opposition of vested interests, and the objections of a corrupt and pleasure-seeking generation, must be reckoned with, resolutely resisted, and completely overcome. As their defensive measures for the impending struggle are organized and extended, storms of abuse and ridicule, and campaigns of condemnation and misrepresentation, may be unloosed against them. Their Faith, they may soon find, has been assaulted, their motives misconstrued, their aims defamed, their aspirations derided, their institutions scorned, their influence belittled, their authority undermined, and their Cause, at times, deserted by a few who will either be incapable of appreciating the nature of their ideals, or unwilling to bear the brunt of the mounting criticisms which such a contest is sure to involve. 'Because of 'Abdu'l-Bahá,/ the beloved Master has prophesied, 'many a test will be visited upon you. Troubles will befall you, and suffering afflict you.'

"Let not, however, the invincible army of Bahá'u'lláh, who in the West, and at one of its potential storm centers is to fight, in His name and for His sake, one of its fiercest and most glorious battles, be afraid of any criticism that might be directed against it. Let it not be deterred by any condemnation with which the tongue of the slanderer may seek to debase its motives. Let it not recoil before the threatening advance of the forces of fanaticism, of orthodoxy, of corruption, and of prejudice that may be leagued against it. The voice of criticism is a voice that indirectly reinforces the proclamation of its Cause. Unpopularity but serves to throw into greater relief the contrast between it and its adversaries, while ostracism is itself the magnetic power that must eventually win over to its camp the most vociferous and inveterate amongst its foes. Already in the land where the greatest battles of the Faith have been fought, and its most rapacious enemies have lived, the march of events, the slow yet steady infiltration of its ideals, and the fulfillment of its prophecies, have resulted not only in disarming and in transforming the character of some of its most redoubtable enemies, but also in securing their firm and unreserved allegiance to its Founders. So complete a transformation, so startling a reversal of attitude, can only be effected if that chosen vehicle which is designed to carry the Message of Bahá'u'lláh to the hungry, the restless, and unshepherded multitudes is itself thoroughly cleansed from the defilements which it seeks to remove."

(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 41)

jimhabegger

Agreed.

Anyway, I didn't say no desire at all. I said no desire for any person, outside of marriage. Also, as I said, it's a virtue to be learned, and I don't think it excludes a period of enjoying and experimenting with sexual capacities in early adolescence. I imagine that's an indispensable part of human development. The difference in the future will be that people will grow out of that after a few months or years, just like other developmental stages.

Also, my idea of chastity does not necessarily exclude looking forward to sexual intimacy in marriage. Occasional daydreaming about that before marriage, might enhance marriages, as long as it desn't revolve around any particular person, even a potential marriage partner. I see more clearly than ever now how sexual desires for a specific person, even a potential marriage partner, can undermine marriage and all human relationships, most of all with the object of the desires.

jimhabegger

I agree also.

I never realize how stressed I've been, until I relax. In the same way I imagine that none of us is close to realizing how messed up we all are by this world.

jimhabegger

I don't think there is any stigma on anyone who doesn't marry. It looks to me like God is calling some people to a life of celibacy, in spite of what He said to the monks.

I've often puzzled about God giving us a commandment to marry, then telling us it isn't obligatory. He annoys me sometimes! All I can think of is that it's a commandment to us collectively, not to everyone individually.

Rani

Well.. He doesn't actually use the word 'I command you'. ;- He said 'Marry O people..'. And Shoghi Effendi, I think, interprets it either as a strong exhortation, and somewhere else, he says 'Baha'u'llah highly recommends it'.

So, one might interpret it as advice, or strong encouragement.
Let's face it, most people marry anyway, even amongst people who have no religious faith. I think He is simply confirming that that is the normal way of life for most people, or that that is His wish for most of us.

Rani

Oh yeah, He said 'Obey it as an assistance to yourselves'. That's right.. But still Shoghi Effendi I think interprets this an encouragement, not as an obligation.

jimhabegger

"Marry, O people, that from you may appear he who will remember Me amongst My servants; this is one of My commandments unto you; obey it as an assistance to yourselves.

(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 104)

46. QUESTION: With reference to the sacred verse, "God hath prescribed matrimony unto you", is this prescription obligatory or not?

ANSWER: It is not obligatory.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 121)

Rani

My memory failed me, sorry.

jimhabegger

I've done worse. Much worse.

LordOfGoblins

I think he is trying to address our attitudes in this life.eg Dont be arrogant and think you are too good for anyone and should just remain alone.
I have seen Bahai girls who were so fussy that they rejected the advances of Bahai boys and then when they hit thirty or so they suddenly become a lot nicer peope! Even going back and asking the boy who rejected her. I know that is a terrible thing to say but we all have our own egos to deal with and marraige is also learning how to deal with someone else in a partnership so you have to sacrifice a lot of your ego to make a long-term marraige work IMO.

jimhabegger

I think you're on to something there. I think when people really understand what God means by marriage, it will take a commandment to get us to do it!

cire perdue

I don't read Shoghi Effendi by the book. I just haven't been able to, but your quotes in context of our discussion make 300% sense to me especially with the issue of homosexuality and even chastity...... We are going to take some serious criticism and already have. There will be more!!!!

cire perdue

After a space of time and upon reflection this morning I found a new reaction to the Guardian. I found a tenderness and preciousness in me for his knowledge and writing that so truly anticipated what we are facing and going through. Though it can be said it was written in such a way it would always be true, if one is in the middle of the issues and additionally aware of the complexity of his instructions to us it is truly more than awe inspiring and a proof of the Faith from a direction I do not ever seem to see or appreciate usually. I cannot handle all text well in this part of my life, it's overwhelming, and I have always avoided The Guardian's writings for that reason prior to this, but not from disagreement or contention. It is a blessing to see quotes in a context such as the above.

jimhabegger

Cire, I was amazed too, at how well that passage fits our current circumstances. I've gone back many times to those passages about the three vital issues, but I had forgotten all about that part.

Lonemedic

The purpose of life is to worship God; it is not to partake of worldy pleasures. The detached individual is able to see his life as one of constant selfless service, and to see in every thought and action, the aim of benefiting mankind, and not of personal pleasure.

However, in life, we must eat, which is naturally enjoyable. We must sleep, which is usually pleasant. We desire to have sexual intercourse naturally as well. However, this is a natural desire which many will never be able to appropriately express, mainly those who do not marry. (Are these people less fortunate due to the fact that they can't have sex? Of course not. Sex is not necessary for us to achieve our purpose.)

So if we never marry, we cannot make use of this natural impulse, and so it must be completely repressed. Only in marriage can it be expressed, and it's purpose is for having children. It is "against the spirit of the Faith" to use contraception, and unallowable to use permanent contraception. If you are not familiar with quotations about this, please find them and remember this important fact.

Now I am going to add my personal interpretation of all this: When procreation is not the goal of the use of the sexual impulse, it's purpose becomes to enjoy carnal desires. And we know that worldly desires are to be avoided, and that the focus should be on the spiritual. Our purpose is to be of service, not to find pleasure.

As a physician, I have patients with a variety of bad habits. For example, there are people who eat food for the sake of pleasure, not nutrition. This is blameworthy, because it results in poor eating habits, damaging the body and the mind. So we must become educated about foods and eat for nutrition, and naturally it will be pleasing to our body, but we don't eat for the sake of pleasure itself. This is blameworthy, and Baha'is must learn to be examples of healthy eating behavior, since they understand that the body is the temple of the spirit.

Similarly, if a person comes to believe that sex purely for the sake of pleasure is acceptable, then what is to prevent a person from using contraception, which is clearly against the spirit of the Faith? What prevents them from having excessive focus on sex, if it's all okay in marriage?

This paradigm, which is probably a somewhat extreme way of thinking, makes it easier for me to accept the idea that our hearts should not be "seduced by the least desire" for physical beauty. What a high standard to achieve indeed!

jimhabegger

Cire, seeing this post was one of the best things that have ever happened to me in my life.

cire perdue

I think if someone is going to say something they should be willing to find quotes to back it up or say they can't or are unable to do so. I think your post shows a very repressed attitude which I think is not what this Faith is about. Sex and love in marriage can be pleasurable and not be against the Faith. I was in a community with a lady who wrote and received replies from The Guardian about birth control. I think you have an ascetic attitude that is not meant to be, but then now when I have time I'll have to go look up all the material you vaguely mention and allude to to back you ideas which I think are backward, but I could be wrong. Moderation would not exclude loving sexual intercourse with one's wife to express love and devotion. However I will probably have a crisis of faith if what you are saying is true or else we are all going to be sinners in our bedrooms and I don't think that is meant to be.

Lonemedic

I beg Thee to forgive me, O my Lord, for every mention but the mention of Thee, and for every praise but the praise of Thee, and for every delight but delight in Thy nearness, and for every pleasure but the pleasure of communion with Thee, and for every joy but the joy of Thy love and of Thy good-pleasure, and for all things pertaining unto me which bear no relationship unto Thee, O Thou Who art the Lord of lords, He Who provideth the means and unlocketh the doors.
- The Báb

ALL our thoughts and actions are always in worship to God. Perhaps any sexual act imagined is sanctioned in marriage... I don't know. But I do know every single moment of our lives should be focused on pleasing God.

armin

I have read all the pertaining quotes backing what you're saying but I think one thing to keep in mind is to put everything in perspective. The prayer by The Bab is the ultimate stage and expecting everyone to live up to that image is expecting too much from people that is why many things are not said in black and white but shades of gray.

Rani

Thank you CP. Sorry, but I also was beginning to feel that this forum was becoming quite austere! As though we were suddenly all in Greece with these harsh austerity measures imposed, but not financial ones.

From what I've read on contraception, the House of Justice has refrained from legislating on it, except to imply that anything permanent is not acceptable.
Was Lonemedic talking about this quote??

'..We, as Bahá'ís, are not therefore in a position either to condemn the practice of birth control or to confirm it.

'Birth control, however, when exercised in order to deliberately prevent the procreation of any children is against the Spirit of the Law of Bahá'u'lláh, which defines the primary purpose of marriage to be the rearing of children and their spiritual training in the Cause. The Universal House of Justice will have to consider this issue and give its verdict upon it.

"The Universal House of Justice feels that the time has not yet arrived for legislation on this matter, and that these instructions provide sufficient guidance for the friends for the time being."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 346)

When it says 'any' I read this, -bearing in mind other quotes-, as meaning that a husband and wife should not decide voluntarily to never ever have any children -that that would be against the spirit of the Faith.. I don't read this as meaning that every time a married couple have sex that they have to have the intention of producing a child.
I think if the House of Justice saw all forms of contraception, whether it be chemical, or even the Rythym method and others, in its entirety, as against the spirit of the Faith, they would have issued a strong statement about it.

But in fact so far they have only spoken specifically against methods that will lead to permanent sterilization. Perhaps they will issue more guidance relating to this in future.

Sex is beneficial for bonding as well I believe, and I thought I saw something in the Writings that alluded to that, but cannot find it for now.

What about when a woman has no womb? It happens if there has been some injury or medical problem resulting in removal.
I personally know a woman who was born without ovaries and will never be able to produce an egg. Should she therefore be not allowed to marry? God forbid.
Or my friend/s in their 70's who just got married.. Should they never be allowed to have sex just because the lady can't reproduce? God forbid.

No, life was meant for the giving of affection and normal joys as well, and sex within marriage is one way of expressing that.

jimhabegger

(edit) This post is off topic in this thread. I should have posted it in one of the gay threads or homosexuality threads. Sorry. I don't want to see this thread turned into a discussion about gays or about homosexuality. I know that if it is, I'll have no one to blame but myself, but please, let's don't go there in this thread. (end edit)

I hope everyone remembers all this wisdom and moderation; all these reservations, indulgences and qualifications; and all this hedging, rule-bending, envelope-pushing and defense of sexual self-gratification; the next time there's a discussion with or about gays.

LordOfGoblins

RANI:
REALLY?
We are not allowed to use contracepton for family planning?
Thats sortof crazy? Is the only exception to that rule people with large families, cos this is sortof news to me.

JIMHABEGGER: A gay person can still certainly have pleasure in a marraige with a member of the opposite sex. THe mind adjusts itself. THe longings for the same sex may not go but hey the longings for beautiful women outside of your wife situation will probably not go either unless you possess spotless chastity. I feel its important to see this in perspective. Have you considered these things that I am pointing out?

jimhabegger

Agreed. 100%

I shouldn't have brought up gays in this thread. I'll take whatever's coming to me, if anyone wants to go there, but if so, please let's do it in another thread, and not derail this one.

Rani

LoG, No, no, I didn't say that.. Maybe if we read just this verse from the quote:

'Birth control, however, when exercised in order to deliberately prevent the procreation of any children is against the Spirit of the Law of Bahá'u'lláh, which defines the primary purpose of marriage to be the rearing of children and their spiritual training in the Cause. The Universal House of Justice will have to consider this issue and give its verdict upon it.'

..then we might, mistakenly, I believe, be lead to think that. But I think, based on having read other quotes, that this verse is referring to if a couple intend to NEVER ever have a child. But of course there are exceptions if the couple aren't able to have children, obviously, or if the wife has some problematic medical issue.
Even sometimes a couple may not feel ready at first, whether it be physically or psychologically, to have a baby. I don't believe it's anyone's business if and when they have a baby. It is up to the couple to decide. It is their life after all, and it's very personal.

As far as I've read the House of Justice has decided at this time not to legislate (if that's a fitting word) on the matter, except to say that anything permanent is not desirable, and have left it to the conscience of each person /couple.

LordOfGoblins

Rani. YES, yes YESSS!
(lol just joke )
thanks for information.