All Those Lies....

Oct 2014
1,833
Stockholm
It is fascinating to realize to what extent one's society is built on lies, half-truths and manipulation. As a Bahá'í, one is not supposed to engage in Politics. At the same time, when one realizes to what extent this liefulness has permeated society, one has to stand up for truthfulness. It's quite an interesting dilemma.

For many years, I got acquainted with the lies of Svoet society. I cannot help feeling that, in the end my own country is worse.

Best,

from

gnat
 
Sep 2010
4,627
Normanton, Far North West Queensland
It is fascinating to realize to what extent one's society is built on lies, half-truths and manipulation. As a Bahá'í, one is not supposed to engage in Politics. At the same time, when one realizes to what extent this liefulness has permeated society, one has to stand up for truthfulness. It's quite an interesting dilemma.

For many years, I got acquainted with the lies of Svoet society. I cannot help feeling that, in the end my own country is worse.

Best,

from

gnat
It is definitely now a world of many lies.

How we can help, be naught but truthful :) Hope you are happy gnat!

Regards Tony
 
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Jul 2014
840
colorado/summer-Oklahoma/winter
I have no idea what to say about the onslaught and propagation of lies. It leaves me speechless. I continue to be truthful and I pray a lot.
 
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Sep 2012
361
Panama
from what I can gather the vast majority of those who lie are unaware of what's happening. Part of the confusion is understanding what is and what is not a lie, and add to that the fact that sometimes lies are necessary. So when people lie it's more often than not a combo of lack of education plus a brain limitation. We live in a mysterious world where truth can be hard to know.

Where that leaves us is that (one) we need to stay happy, and (two) we have to be more philosophical about what seems to be other people's lies.

mho.
 
Jul 2017
341
Kettering, Ohio USA
This may seem political, but Trump is undeniably a pathological liar, and his defense team are liars. This is a reflection of their character, not their policies. We are to look for character in the people we vote for. Also, it doesn't seem like backbiting when this problem is out in the open. I'm afraid that Trump will steal the next election, and the fact that fact that so many people support Trump says something bad about America. The revelation of his misdeeds has not affected his approval ratings at all.
 
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Oct 2014
1,833
Stockholm
The production of lies, in no way, can be seen as a monopoly of this or that political faction. Every day, it gets increasingly evident that we, as Bahá’ís, must take great care, not to identify with a particular political movement.

I have been a researcher and consultant, doing research on international organizations and aid programmes. I also have made evaluations of projects for international organizations and the Swedish Council of Ministers. In the end, it’s always been a saddening experience. The amount of unmentionables – the elephants in the room – is incredible.

During the last few years, I have dealt with custody cases, increasingly realizing that liefulness and acceptance of lies as a legitimate working method permeates the whole system – the CPS, the police, the public prosecutors, the judges. I have seen cases, where the authorities silence children, who wish to tell a story of abuse. I have seen other cases, where children are made to tell about abuse that has not taken place.

Nobody could convince me that this or that party, this or that politician moral standing is so superior to others. On the contrary, I really wish to express a word of caution. I see many Bahá’ís, who seem to have identified one political side as being particularly close to Bahá’u’lláh’s Message. Well, that – in my view – is a dangerous over-simplification.

Best,

from

gnat
 
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Jun 2014
1,120
Wisconsin
This may seem political, but Trump is undeniably a pathological liar, and his defense team are liars. This is a reflection of their character, not their policies. We are to look for character in the people we vote for. Also, it doesn't seem like backbiting when this problem is out in the open. I'm afraid that Trump will steal the next election, and the fact that fact that so many people support Trump says something bad about America. The revelation of his misdeeds has not affected his approval ratings at all.
That is too political, because there's no need to be partisan here: All politicians are liars. Every last one of 'em. Which is why there are not Baha'i politicians. :p
 
Jun 2014
1,120
Wisconsin
Nobody could convince me that this or that party, this or that politician moral standing is so superior to others. On the contrary, I really wish to express a word of caution. I see many Bahá’ís, who seem to have identified one political side as being particularly close to Bahá’u’lláh’s Message. Well, that – in my view – is a dangerous over-simplification.
I agree. No Baha'i should think partisan/party politics will lead to truth. If anything, the party with the least similarity to Baha'u'llah's Message is the closer party to his actual cause, since all parties lie about their positions anyways.

The longer I live, the more I see wisdom in the politics of Dante Alighieri. Back in his day there were two political factions vying for power over medieval Europe, the Guelphs and the Ghibellines. The TL;DR of it was that the Guelphs were more pro-Pope, the Ghilbellines more pro-Holy Roman Emperor. In Dante's early work, he was pro-Guelph politically. Later on in his life, though, he turns against the political process itself. His beliefs culminate in his three-part epic Inferno/Purgatorio/Paradiso, where he discusses politics in the sixth canto of each book, essentially and intentionally tying politics itself to the "number of the beast", 666. In the 6th canto of Paradiso he is most explicit in his views, wherein a righteous Roman Emperor in Heaven denounces both Guelph and Ghibelline alike, and points to the conflict between the two factions as being the cause of the very problems both factions blame on the other.

The more I look at the political parties of my own country, the more I just see another iteration of Guelphs and Ghibellines. The problems each side claims they will solve are caused by the parties' own factionalism.
 
Jul 2017
341
Kettering, Ohio USA
That is too political, because there's no need to be partisan here: All politicians are liars. Every last one of 'em. Which is why there are not Baha'i politicians. :p
I think that's too cynical. Some politicians lie very little or not at all, and there has been no president in history that has come anywhere near the amount of lies by Trump and some of his supporters. His supporters though lie because they are afraid of Trump, since he tolerates no criticism, and has complete control of the Republican party because he is so popular among Republican voters no matter how bad his behavior. Some of his voters don't know about even of a lot of behavior because there are conservative news outlets that don't present all the facts and in essence lie themselves. The nation is very polarized like never before because of this. Trump right now is a dictator in effect because he can get away with anything right now and nothing happens to him politically. The nation could be damaged badly if Trump is re-elected, and there's a good chance he will be. We should be concerned about this.

The Evangelicals have shown themselves to be hypocrites in supporting Trump, ignoring his bad behavior, which is very bad, just so they can get what they want in terms of abortion and such. In the long run this is a good thing, it is the tearing down of the old religious order.

Today this nation is very divided politically and racially, and they need the Baha'i teachings to get the nation to heal itself. Everybody today sees themselves identified with their particular group.

Perhaps this is all part of God's plan.
 
Jun 2014
1,120
Wisconsin
I think that's too cynical. Some politicians lie very little or not at all,
Local politicians?? Sure. State-level politicians. Maybe some. National politicians?? At least in America?? They are all liars. The system unfortunately favors those who promise big, and not those who deliver. The liar is favored by the very way the system is structured, so the only ones successful at the national level must be liars to get that far.

and there has been no president in history that has come anywhere near the amount of lies by Trump and some of his supporters.
Absolutely untrue. Several historical examples come to mind, but going into detail is way to political for my tastes.

Just consider, however, the fact that the American citizens have been extremely anti-war since the end of the Civil War. For every war since then, lies and propaganda was what eventually pushed the nation into war, despite the anti-war sentiment. Those responsible were surely greater liars.

Perhaps those who lied us into literal Armageddon despite the advice of 'Abdu'l-Baha to stay out of that war were the worst liars in our history, but who am I to make that sort of judgement??

His supporters though lie because they are afraid of Trump, since he tolerates no criticism,
This is also untrue. I get my news from all sources and listen to all opinions, and though I have not voted for the man, nor do I intend to, that's not even remotely near what actual Trump supporters believe. I think you might take the current administration a bit too personally to see the positions of Trump supporters clearly. His supporters love him, rather than fearing him.

and has complete control of the Republican party because he is so popular among Republican voters no matter how bad his behavior.
This, however, appears to be relatively true.

Some of his voters don't know about even of a lot of behavior because there are conservative news outlets that don't present all the facts and in essence lie themselves.
And unfortunately a lot of the left-leaning news outlets exaggerate, lie, and misreport to demonize the current president and his supporters. I highly recommend alternative, non-corporate news sources. Or, at the very least, watch all of the corporate press so you get both sides of the propaganda.

Take it from someone who has never aligned with either American political party: The left-leaning outlets are just as bad as the right-leaning ones.

But mainstream news these days is just propaganda and spin. I say "these days" but, honestly, perhaps it was always this way. We only just now live in an age where we can fact check these outlets ourselves, so if previous eras were being lied too, they had no way of knowing.

The nation is very polarized like never before because of this.
This is another statement that is very, very false.

This is a view I think is much too cynical.

Two-party systems are always polarized like crazy, but this is not a unique period in US history. We don't have open fistfights in Congress, which is proof it is not as polarized right now as it once, historically, was. The election of 1800s had one candidate calling the other "hermaphroditic". We graciously do not have that level of vitriol right now, regardless of how admittedly bad the polarization issue is currently. It has, historically, been much worse.

Partisanship and its related polarization is certainly a problem, but we don't need to exaggerate and pretend it is worse now than it ever has been.

Trump right now is a dictator in effect because he can get away with anything right now and nothing happens to him politically.
I am aware that the corporate media has been pushing the "monarchy" angle really hard lately. It's odd how, on the exact same day, multiple networks all began using the terms "monarchy" and "dictatorship" simultaneously, is it not?? I'm not really trusting those terms being thrown around lately. From my perspective, outside of political partisanship, they seem too... inorganic.

But regardless, I am rather concerned with the amount of power granted to the US executive branch. I have been concerned with this, however, since long before Trump. The US presidency for many years has been able to get away with anything and nothing happens to them politically in return. Consider how past presidents have ordered the assassination of underage US citizens without trial. Consider the fact that past presidents have been able to wage acts of war without a Congressional war declaration, as is required.

Indeed, I do agree, the ever-expanding powers of the executive is something to be concerned about...

But don't make the mistake of limiting that concern to a single administration.

Otherwise when this administration finally ends, you may not notice when things continue on their current course.

The nation could be damaged badly if Trump is re-elected, and there's a good chance he will be. We should be concerned about this.
Oh, it'll be harmed regardless of who wins. The only people who would not expand further the power of the executive are either in Third Parties or they will never be allowed to win their party's primary.

The Evangelicals have shown themselves to be hypocrites in supporting Trump, ignoring his bad behavior, which is very bad, just so they can get what they want in terms of abortion and such. In the long run this is a good thing, it is the tearing down of the old religious order.
Most supporters of any given partisan politician are hypocrites, it isn't limited to the Evangelicals. This is the sad truth.

Do you remember when the previous administration placed children in detention centers separated from their parents??

Many people rightly criticize the current administration for such acts. But many who are vocal now were silent when their partisan was the one doing it. Their silence then enabled it to continue in the present.

This is why there is so much wisdom in the command for us as Baha'is not to buy into partisanship. Everyone who buys into one party or the other is completely blinded by that partisanship!!

Perhaps this is all part of God's plan.
"The world has never had nor does it now possess stability (thabát), notwithstanding the complaints of some unfaithful and wavering souls. But, in truth, whatever takes place is well-pleasing, for the divine wisdom has ordained it. Without His command and will, not a leaf can stir, and whatever occurs is conformable to wisdom. All must be contented with it, nay eagerly desire it. However, in some cases, such as when the sweetness of reunion [with God] gives way to the bitterness of separation and, likewise, when, by the decree of remoteness, nearness and meeting are banished--this causes sighs of sorrow and grief to be upraised and the tears to flow. Otherwise, the matter is as some of the philosophers have cited from the words of Idrís [Hermes]: “It is impossible for the realm of creation to be better than it already is.” (Baha'u'llah, emphasis mine)