All Those Lies....

Oct 2014
1,838
Stockholm
Well, there are many good reasons why I'm a Marxist. Just look at these quotes:

“The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.”

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others.”

“I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal.”

“Humor is reason gone mad.”

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”


Life would be a lot more boring without Groucho's oneliners.

gnat
 
Jul 2017
359
Kettering, Ohio USA
Absolutely untrue. Several historical examples come to mind, but going into detail is way to political for my tastes.

Just consider, however, the fact that the American citizens have been extremely anti-war since the end of the Civil War. For every war since then, lies and propaganda was what eventually pushed the nation into war, despite the anti-war sentiment. Those responsible were surely greater liars.

Perhaps those who lied us into literal Armageddon despite the advice of 'Abdu'l-Baha to stay out of that war were the worst liars in our history, but who am I to make that sort of judgement??
What are you watching? Trump lies even when it is not necessary. He lies about everything. He lies when it is in the open that he is lying. He has the worst character of any president in history. He is a pathological liar, he has no empathy, he cares about himself and nothing else. It is more obvious that he should be removed from office than when Nixon resigned.
Local politicians?? Sure. State-level politicians. Maybe some. National politicians?? At least in America?? They are all liars. The system unfortunately favors those who promise big, and not those who deliver. The liar is favored by the very way the system is structured, so the only ones successful at the national level must be liars to get that far.
I know everybody promises more than they can reasonably deliver. Does that make them a liar? It depends on the person. Some are just over optimistic like I think Obama was. He didn't know how very partisan that the Republicans would be and stonewall him. He over optimistically thought there could be some bipartisan agreements. They all exaggerate and emphasize their good points, including Obama. But Trump doesn't just exaggerate, he lies. He lied about sex with those women outside of marriage. He lied about sexual touching some women after a tape was found bragging about how he could touch any woman he wanted to. That was before the election. He lied when he said he won the election overwhelmingly, and the reason it didn't look that way was because of voter fraud. He will do the same if he loses the next election, and will refuse to concede defeat. When has another president done that? He lied blatantly about some things he said he has done and had not done in the State of the Union. The record of the phone call to Ukraine is there for everyone to see, but he says he made a 'perfect' call. When has anyone you know of, especially a president has done such things? The republicans in the House pretended that Trump did nothing wrong when they knew better, because they were afraid of Trump. The same was true in the Senate for most Senators
Two-party systems are always polarized like crazy, but this is not a unique period in US history. We don't have open fistfights in Congress, which is proof it is not as polarized right now as it once, historically, was. The election of 1800s had one candidate calling the other "hermaphroditic". We graciously do not have that level of vitriol right now, regardless of how admittedly bad the polarization issue is currently. It has, historically, been much worse.

Partisanship and its related polarization is certainly a problem, but we don't need to exaggerate and pretend it is worse now than it ever has been.
Have you looked at what Trump is saying about Shiff and Pelosi? He said that Shiff made up the call between Trump and Zelenski. I may not know as much as you do about the 1800's but the polarization is worse than anything I've seen. Have you noticed how McConnell has not even allowed bills from the House of Representatives to even come to the floor and then said that the House was a do nothing House. This is not only under Trump, this polarization was starting to be bad under the Obama administration. Obama didn't want to become as partisan as he did, but he was forced to to survive politically.
This is also untrue. I get my news from all sources and listen to all opinions, and though I have not voted for the man, nor do I intend to, that's not even remotely near what actual Trump supporters believe. I think you might take the current administration a bit too personally to see the positions of Trump supporters clearly. His supporters love him, rather than fearing him.
Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Republicans in congress are afraid of him. There is a big difference in what the Republican politicians said before and after the election. I don't doubt that some may love his policies, but most are afraid to say that he said anything wrong at all.

Only Romney today had the principles to say that he did was egregiously wrong and should be convicted. A few other Republicans said finally said he did something wrong, but will not convict when it is obvious they should convict.

Most supporters of any given partisan politician are hypocrites, it isn't limited to the Evangelicals. This is the sad truth.

Do you remember when the previous administration placed children in detention centers separated from their parents??

Many people rightly criticize the current administration for such acts. But many who are vocal now were silent when their partisan was the one doing it. Their silence then enabled it to continue in the present.

This is why there is so much wisdom in the command for us as Baha'is not to buy into partisanship. Everyone who buys into one party or the other is completely blinded by that partisanship!!
If you really looked closely, the situation in the previous administration was not the same as in this administration. There was some separation but not on a wholesale scale like now. The circumstances weren't the same. I don't remember all the particulars now, so I'll leave it at that. Obama is a good man, he definitely means well. Trump has under him administrating the immigrant situation a white nationalist sympathizer.

I admit I have not liked the Republicans over the years , but it is hard as a Baha'i not to.

I think you are too cynical to say that most supporters of any given partisan politician are hypocrites, especially on the scale I see it today with the Evangelicals. They are not all equal. Some are more hypocritical than others.
I am aware that the corporate media has been pushing the "monarchy" angle really hard lately. It's odd how, on the exact same day, multiple networks all began using the terms "monarchy" and "dictatorship" simultaneously, is it not?? I'm not really trusting those terms being thrown around lately. From my perspective, outside of political partisanship, they seem too... inorganic.

But regardless, I am rather concerned with the amount of power granted to the US executive branch. I have been concerned with this, however, since long before Trump. The US presidency for many years has been able to get away with anything and nothing happens to them politically in return. Consider how past presidents have ordered the assassination of underage US citizens without trial. Consider the fact that past presidents have been able to wage acts of war without a Congressional war declaration, as is required.

Indeed, I do agree, the ever-expanding powers of the executive is something to be concerned about...

But don't make the mistake of limiting that concern to a single administration.

Otherwise when this administration finally ends, you may not notice when things continue on their current course.
Yes, the power of the presidency has been expanding for some time. But who has been able to get away with what Trump is getting away with? The next president will not be able to get away with what Trump is getting away with. When did past presidents ordered the assassination of underage US citizens without trial? Could you tell me about those? Was it known then as the bad acts of Trump are known now at the time? If it was not known, then that president did not get away with it blatantly in public as is going on now. The Trump administration, in effect, ordered the deaths of some sick legal immigrants, though it had to back track on that eventually. Everybody knew about that in congress. Probably Trump supporters don't know about that.
 
Last edited:
Jan 2020
14
Middle United States
....
And unfortunately a lot of the left-leaning news outlets exaggerate, lie, and misreport to demonize the current president and his supporters. I highly recommend alternative, non-corporate news sources. Or, at the very least, watch all of the corporate press so you get both sides of the propaganda.

Take it from someone who has never aligned with either American political party: The left-leaning outlets are just as bad as the right-leaning ones.

But mainstream news these days is just propaganda and spin. I say "these days" but, honestly, perhaps it was always this way. We only just now live in an age where we can fact check these outlets ourselves, so if previous eras were being lied too, they had no way of knowing.

.....

Most supporters of any given partisan politician are hypocrites, it isn't limited to the Evangelicals. This is the sad truth.

...
I was active politically (in high school) before becoming a Baha'i and due to working with someone well-connected politically, met many prominent politicians in the 1980s (as a Baha'i). My sense was that many do not lie generally and do not knowingly lie. Some are like some defense lawyers and stone cold prevaricators and liars without a sense of shame or contrition, but most don't see themselves that way. Rather, in trying to gain and hold office, they find themselves pushed and pulled to compromise and say things less than true (as opposed to being objectively false) often by partisan and self-interested influential forces without acknowledging or admitting to it. Having worked for years in a place to observe lawyers and witnesses in legal settings, I have found and realized "sadly" that we all to some extent rationalize our behaviors and make excuses. Politicians are, thus, more a reflection of our society than we dare to admit. But, still, many people have the sense of shame and regret when they dissemble or deny something that is true or mislead.

As for the media, I don't see it the way you do at all. Are some of the more mainstream, center-left media sometimes overcompensating for the strident disinformation they see on the perceived "right", yes? But I do not believe that they are knowingly or willingly putting out false or misleading information. Rather, it is what they choose to focus on in general and the information that they impart that conveys some elements of bias. But I find the alternative media to be far more partisan and far less constrained by journalistic standards and ethics, and I am less able to judge the veracity of the information that they present. At least when I read or watch the more mainstream media outlets, they appear willing to report multiple perspective and voices and present multiple perspectives and voices and are willing to admit when they have misreported facts. I am more pleased by the resistance of some media outlets to the increasingly polarization and disinformation to try to keep their own standards intact.
 
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Jul 2017
359
Kettering, Ohio USA
As for the media, I don't see it the way you do at all. Are some of the more mainstream, center-left media sometimes overcompensating for the strident disinformation they see on the perceived "right", yes? But I do not believe that they are knowingly or willingly putting out false or misleading information. Rather, it is what they choose to focus on in general and the information that they impart that conveys some elements of bias. But I find the alternative media to be far more partisan and far less constrained by journalistic standards and ethics, and I am less able to judge the veracity of the information that they present. At least when I read or watch the more mainstream media outlets, they appear willing to report multiple perspective and voices and present multiple perspectives and voices and are willing to admit when they have misreported facts. I am more pleased by the resistance of some media outlets to the increasingly polarization and disinformation to try to keep their own standards intact.
I have mostly been seeing MSNBC, and not seeing Fox at all. So I didn't feel that I could say anything about the media to Walrus. What little I've seen from clips from Fox looks bad. For instance MSNBC showed clips from Fox denouncing Romney as a traitor this week. I get the feeling from what my wife says about them and what little I've seen that they are very partisan and don't look at all of the facts. MSNBC is undeniably somewhat liberal, but they at least look at the facts.
 
Jul 2018
110
Tarshish, bound for Nineveh
This may seem political, but Trump is undeniably a pathological liar, and his defense team are liars. This is a reflection of their character, not their policies. We are to look for character in the people we vote for. Also, it doesn't seem like backbiting when this problem is out in the open. I'm afraid that Trump will steal the next election, and the fact that fact that so many people support Trump says something bad about America. The revelation of his misdeeds has not affected his approval ratings at all.
I wish you wouldn't bring your political views to air here. Suppose that the same thing were said about a member of your LSA. Would that be appropriate? It is no more appropriate when it becomes about a world leader.

Cheers
 
Jul 2017
359
Kettering, Ohio USA
I wish you wouldn't bring your political views to air here. Suppose that the same thing were said about a member of your LSA. Would that be appropriate? It is no more appropriate when it becomes about a world leader.

Cheers
It is out in the open. You know as well as I do what kind of person he is. This is no revelation like it would be for an assembly member.

I admit I have never voted for a Republican for president, but that was just my personal opinion based on his policies mostly. This president, however is undoubtedly the most morally corrupt president in American history, Republican or Democrat.

However, while it is not backbiting, I admit I should not speak ill of anyone whether it is out in the open or not. We should only see the good in the person, not the bad. I am only human, though, it is so hard to see any good in this man.

I don't like the squabbling and fighting among the Democrats, either. I find it distasteful. All the politicians will do whatever it takes to win. If a person is a frontrunner, every politician hypocritically attacks him. It is all political expediency because the person's ego tells him or her that he is the best one to be president.
 
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Jul 2018
110
Tarshish, bound for Nineveh
It is out in the open. You know as well as I do what kind of person he is. This is no revelation like it would be for an assembly member.

I admit I have never voted for a Republican for president, but that was just my personal opinion based on his policies mostly. This president, however is undoubtedly the most morally corrupt president in American history, Republican or Democrat.

However, while it is not backbiting, I admit I should not speak ill of anyone whether it is out in the open or not. We should only see the good in the person, not the bad. I am only human, though, it is so hard to see any good in this man.

I don't like the squabbling and fighting among the Democrats, either. I find it distasteful. All the politicians will do whatever it takes to win. If a person is a frontrunner, every politician hypocritically attacks him. It is all political expediency because the person's ego tells him or her that he is the best one to be president.
Brother, let's be principled Bahais in our words and actions. The source of our principles is the writings. Can you reference any writings that encourage us to openly speak negatively of any soul, whether or not those things are true?

I don't pretend to know anything about tge character or intentions of any soul I've never met, and even with souls I think I know well, in reality, only God can accurately weigh a soul's worth.

The comments you make, (regardless of their truth or falsehood) lead only to partisanship bickering and disunity. You can like or dislike, support or oppose, any political figure as you will. Vote for them, or don't. But to voice the views in counterproductive to the goals of the faith, which is unity in diversity, oneness. Do not imagine that Trump voters or (fill in the blank) supporters are not welcome in our faith. In fact, quite the opposite. That is why, regardless of how you or I feel about certain politicians, it is better to keep silent. It is really no different from Bahai elections. I vote for who I like best. It is a judgment and, on analysis, a discrimination because some I prefer above others and vote for, others I do not. But we as Bahais never voice such thoughts or feelings aloud and to do so would be contrary to the spirit and teachings of the faith. It should be no different for us in national and local politics.

I encourage you to reflect on recent messages from the Supreme Body on these matters.

Cheers

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
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Jul 2017
359
Kettering, Ohio USA
The comments you make, (regardless of their truth or falsehood) lead only to partisanship bickering and disunity. You can like or dislike, support or oppose, any political figure as you will. Vote for them, or don't. But to voice the views in counterproductive to the goals of the faith, which is unity in diversity, oneness. Do not imagine that Trump voters or (fill in the blank) supporters are not welcome in our faith. In fact, quite the opposite. That is why, regardless of how you or I feel about certain politicians, it is better to keep silent. It is really no different from Bahai elections. I vote for who I like best. It is a judgment and, on analysis, a discrimination because some I prefer above others and vote for, others I do not. But we as Bahais never voice such thoughts or feelings aloud and to do so would be contrary to the spirit and teachings of the faith. It should be no different for us in national and local politics.
You've got a point, I'm sorry. We shouldn't alienate Trump supporters. I don't voice such opinions in my community because of that. There is something about it being in a more anonymous fashion that seemed to make it different to me. This thread was about lies. My original intent was to show how lies were taking over my country, since this thread is about lies. But I now see I went too far.
 
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Sep 2010
4,645
Normanton, Far North West Queensland
You've got a point, I'm sorry. We shouldn't alienate Trump supporters. I don't voice such opinions in my community because of that. There is something about it being in a more anonymous fashion that seemed to make it different to me. This thread was about lies. My original intent was to show how lies were taking over my country, since this thread is about lies. But I now see I went too far.
This is a great challenge for Baha'i. It is a very important topic to deepen in and consider before we make any comment.

It is the actions we can comment on, but not using specific situations, but by imparting the required virtues in our conversations.

I wish all people well and happy.

Regards Tony
 
Jan 2020
14
Middle United States
You've got a point, I'm sorry. We shouldn't alienate Trump supporters. I don't voice such opinions in my community because of that. There is something about it being in a more anonymous fashion that seemed to make it different to me. This thread was about lies. My original intent was to show how lies were taking over my country, since this thread is about lies. But I now see I went too far.
It is difficult for me as well to bite my tongue at times but in general with respect to all partisans today. The decline in civil discourse in our society and the extent to which many people are not truthful or deceiving themselves (often both) due to confirmation biases is truly troubling. What is even more troubling is the lack of "discernment" at times (willingness to accept and believe disinformation and conspiracy theories as long as they support the ideology or partisan positions of a given person or group) and willingness to reward and tolerate such behavior, including in the print and broadcast media, but especially in the social media.

I think we can, as Baha'is, decry the general decline in ethics and morality and specific objectionable statements and falsehoods without making partisan political statements that typically divide and repeal in this increasingly polarized and partisan society. Sometimes, our statements are viewed as partisan, even when not, due to the extreme polarization of our society (ies) and then we have to avoid seeming so even if it means disengaging from making a moral, ethical position and belief know.