Bahai Beliefs

Sep 2010
4,486
Normanton Far North Queensland
#21
Bahaullah is certainly not dismissing the Trinity as a false doctrine but acknowledging it as Divine reality.
Thank you Venu, I can say there is no teaching in the Baha'i Writings that will confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. Muhammad has already made this clear;

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Verse 4:171)

Abdul'baha has explained in detail as to what Baha'u'llah offered, in this explanation;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

That is the picture posted above.

The Messengers are the 'Self of God' only as the Mirrior. All we see of them is the Reflection of God in Attributes. God is unknowable in Essence, even to the Messenger. This is a big subject and there are many avenues of thought to consider.

Regards Tony
 
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Mar 2015
224
Bend area, Oregon
#22
Venue and Tony:

I thought you both might appreciate that relevant to this thread there are some Islamic Hadiths reporting the Prophet Muhammad's utterances and which have validity according to Shia traditions. Some of these reported sayings are quoted by Bahá'u'lláh Himself in His revealed Works. Muhammad is reported to have uttered,

“He who has seen me has seen God” (El Haqq,“The Truth”).
“I am He and He is I, save that I am that I am and He is He who He is.”
“I was a Prophet when Adam was still between water and clay” (before the creation)
“I have been charged to fulfil my mission since the best of the ages of Adam (the origin of the world), from age to age down to the age in which I am now.”


So let's add these to the mix too.

LR
 
Sep 2010
4,486
Normanton Far North Queensland
#23
Venue and Tony:

I thought you both might appreciate that relevant to this thread there are some Islamic Hadiths reporting the Prophet Muhammad's utterances and which have validity according to Shia traditions. Some of these reported sayings are quoted by Bahá'u'lláh Himself in His revealed Works. Muhammad is reported to have uttered,

“He who has seen me has seen God” (El Haqq,“The Truth”).
“I am He and He is I, save that I am that I am and He is He who He is.”
“I was a Prophet when Adam was still between water and clay” (before the creation)
“I have been charged to fulfil my mission since the best of the ages of Adam (the origin of the world), from age to age down to the age in which I am now.”


So let's add these to the mix too.

LR
Thank you Larry. The Station of Baha'u'llah is quite an eye opening journey of discovery. I personally see that it transfers across all Messengers. The light that shines from them being the same light, the intensity given by God.

At the same time we are to balance our thoughts with the repeated warnings never to make the person of Baha'u'llah 'God', we read many passages where Baha'u'llah it is the bringer of the promised 'Day of God', or the 'Day of Jehovah' and speaks as the authority of God. Baha'u'llah is even said to be the 'Self of God' amongst us.

All I can offer is our finite minds have a hard time grasping what all this means and in the end we are told that it is not wrong to see a Messenger as God or as a Messenger from God, as long as we do not argue about it.

As the Trinity has been corrected in the Quran and Baha'i writings, I would offer that it is flawed and will hinder our spiritual perception to pursue it from that doctrinal angle.

Regards Tony
 
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Mar 2015
224
Bend area, Oregon
#24
Venu:

As you may know, Siyyid `Alí Muhammad Shírází, known to the Bahá’ís as The Báb (Gate), was a Manifestation of God appearing in 1844. He was also the harbinger of the One whom God was to make manifest, that promised One being Bahá'u'lláh. In His own revealed Scripture and in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, the Báb is frequently referred to as the “Primal Point”, which is another synonymous term for that ancient, divine, and universal Reality being the Word, the Command, the Primal Will, the Divine Intelligence, the Aum. . . . Following is only a sampling from several of the revealed writings of the Báb related to the reality of the Manifestation of God and the topic of this thread.

“Verily the Point possesseth two stations. One is the station that speaketh from God. The other is the station that speaketh from that which is other than God, a station whereby He expresseth His servitude for the former station. By virtue of the former, the latter worshippeth God in the daytime and in the night season, and glorifieth Him at morn and at eventide.

“The substance of this gate is that God hath fashioned two stations for the Sun of Truth. One is the station of His unknown and unknowable Essence, the Manifestation of His Divinity. Thus, all His revealed divine verses stream forth on behalf of God All else beyond this supreme Sign present within Him is His creation.

“And within the inmost reality of all things there hath been, and will forever continue to be, a sign from God through which the unity of the Lord is celebrated. This sign, however, is a reflection of His Will present within it, through which naught is seen but God. However, within the Will, that supreme Sign is the Will Itself, the Supreme Mirror of God, which hath never referred, nor will it ever refer, to aught but God.... He is the possessor of two signs, that of God and that of creation, and through the latter he worshippeth God and boweth in adoration before Him. In like manner, all things adore their Beloved through the sign of Creation, though it hath never reached, nor will it ever reach, beyond its own sign from God, which is present within it and pointeth unto Him.”

(Translated by Nadar Saiedi, with the assistance of the Reasearch Department of the Bahá’í World Center, and cited in his book ‘Gate of the Heart – Understanding the Writings of the Báb’, p. 46)

-LR
 
Feb 2019
113
Chicago
#25
Thank you Venu, I can say there is no teaching in the Baha'i Writings that will confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. Muhammad has already made this clear;

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Verse 4:171)


Regards Tony

Tony,

Mohammed and Jesus are addressing two different aspects of the truth. Mohammed was addressing a misunderstanding of the profound truth that Jesus expressed. To begin with Jesus spoke in metaphors to the masses which made it difficult to understand and when his teachings were translated in to English, some of the meaning was lost. Many Christians even today believe that Jesus is Son of God who is also God because they never really understood what Son of God means.

Spirit (Allah) is essentially formless. But when Spirit decides to manifest creation, Spirit becomes God the Father beyond creation, Holy Ghost that gives birth to creation and is part of creation and the Son that is reflected in creation. The Father deposits His seed of undifferentiated Divine Intelligence in the womb of Holy Ghost which gives birth to the creation in which the Divine Intelligence is reflected which is called the Son and is essential for the orderly functioning of Father's creation. In human being the Son is centered at the point between the eye brows (spiritual eye) and anyone can perceive the Son declaring the existence of the Father in deep states of meditation. Such a person is called the Son of God. It is Christian terminology that has created a lot of misunderstanding. The corresponding Hindu terminology of Sat, Tat and Aum never caused that kind of misunderstanding.

Mohammed in the Quran verse you quoted is referring to the Allah - the unmanifested Spirit. He was right as far as his assertion about Allah is concerned. But Jesus was not talking about Allah - the unmanifested Spirit but he was referring to the Trinity that Allah manifested to bring creation in to existence. Since the Holy Ghost came out of Spirit and became creation, even Bahaullah like Hindu prophets asserted that God is everywhere. If the ocean that Spirit created can become three (ice, water and water vapor), why can't Spirit become three or more than three. If Spirit is omnipotent, how can we rule out the possibility that it is impossible for Spirit to accomplish anything. Please contemplate on these words of Bahaullah from Mathnaviyi-i-Mubarak

"When you sense for sure the Spirit's mystery –
that there is nothing anywhere but God

then wash away in spirit's stream the mire
that you may see the Pure One's emanations

that you may see reunion in reunion
that you may see your heart with Beauty shine

Such union never will be contradicted
such union never ends in separation

If you've an ear for fatherly advice,
both are blasphemy: reunion, absence!" - Bahaullah, Mathnaviyi-i-Mubarak

Bahaullah is saying that God is everywhere ("there is nothing anywhere but God") but it is a mystery of Spirit that man has not understood. The "reunion in reunion" refers to the man finding God within his heart and then finding God in other people since God is everywhere. That is from the perspective of a man still in spiritual ignorance or one who has not yet attained union with God and feels separation from God. But from the perspective of one who has attained union with God who perceives the entire creation as God, both reunion and absence become blasphemy. Reunion is blasphemy because we are already one with God and absence (of God) is blasphemy because God is really in our hearts. All we need to do is overcome the spiritual ignorance (Bahaullah calls it the "mire") by cleansing our hearts as Bahaullah says. A highly revered Indian saint named Guru Nanak who was the founder of the Sikh religion and who saw God everywhere like Bahaullah visited Mecca and had this experience demonstrating to the spiritually blind that God is everywhere. I am also including a few lines from a mystical poem by Guru Nanak in which he describes the existence of God everywhere. It is important to appreciate this truth to understand the role of Holy Ghost in Allah's creation.

Guru Nanak's account of the occurrence of Mecca

When I went to the Kabbah at Mecca Sharrif. I was resting. From there a Kaddam (Moluvi/priest) came to me running and with raging anger and said " O Fakir move your feet away from the Kabbah and sit properly". I said with patience, humbly "Why talk in so much anger (rudely) to tell me for what I have done". After saying this I started to move my feet, where ever I moved my feet the Kabbah sharrif's door moved. That kaddam/qaddam (priest) after seeing such a miracle was suprised and asked for forgiveness. In such the priest's knowledge was enlightened and he kissed my (Guru Nanak's) hands and for his rudeness and asked for forgiveness. Everything that occured was due to Allah's great given utmost mercy and grace.

Guru Nanak in Mecca - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

Guru Nanak's Mystical Poem
=========================

Oh God Beautiful Oh God, So Beautiful
Oh God Beautiful Oh God, So Beautiful!!
At Thy Feet, I do bow

In the forest, Thou art green
In the mountains, Thou art High
In the rivers, Thou art restless
In the oceans, Thou art rain

To the serviceful, Thou art service
To the lover, Thou art Love
To the sorrowful, Thou art sympathy
To the Yogi, Thou art Bliss

Oh God Beautiful Oh God, So Beautiful
Oh God Beautiful Oh God, So Beautiful!!

At Thy feet, I do bow
At Thy feet, I do bow!!!

- Venu
 
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Feb 2019
113
Chicago
#26
Abdul'baha has explained in detail as to what Baha'u'llah offered, in this explanation;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

That is the picture posted above.

The Messengers are the 'Self of God' only as the Mirrior. All we see of them is the Reflection of God in Attributes. God is unknowable in Essence, even to the Messenger. This is a big subject and there are many avenues of thought to consider.

Regards Tony
Simple questions on Abdul Baha's comment "God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection."

What matter did God use to make creation. Who created that matter and how did it come in to existence in the first place?

If we sincerely try to find answers to these questions, we will be led to Holy Ghost and the Son.
 
Feb 2019
113
Chicago
#27
Venue and Tony:

I thought you both might appreciate that relevant to this thread there are some Islamic Hadiths reporting the Prophet Muhammad's utterances and which have validity according to Shia traditions. Some of these reported sayings are quoted by Bahá'u'lláh Himself in His revealed Works. Muhammad is reported to have uttered,

“He who has seen me has seen God” (El Haqq,“The Truth”).
“I am He and He is I, save that I am that I am and He is He who He is.”
“I was a Prophet when Adam was still between water and clay” (before the creation)
“I have been charged to fulfil my mission since the best of the ages of Adam (the origin of the world), from age to age down to the age in which I am now.”


So let's add these to the mix too.

LR
Larry,

Thanks for those beautiful quotes. I am not surprised at such sayings coming from Prophet Mohammed because one who has experienced union with God can speak like God. One of the Hindu prophets Adi Shankaracharya also said "I am He". Here is a short excerpt from his mystical poem titled "Nirvana Shatakam"

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff ;
I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body ;
I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight,
Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air ;
I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute—
I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham)

The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda/Volume 4/Writings: Poems/Nirvanashatkam, or Six Stanzas on Nirvana - Wikisource, the free online library

-Venu
 
Feb 2019
113
Chicago
#28
As the Trinity has been corrected in the Quran and Baha'i writings, I would offer that it is flawed and will hinder our spiritual perception to pursue it from that doctrinal angle.

Regards Tony
The Quran actually begins with the Holy Ghost (AUM of Hindu scriptures). The first chapter of the Quran is an introduction. The actual divine revelations begin in the second chapter which starts with A.L.M (Alif-Lam-Mam) which are the Arabic equivalent for Sanskrit AUM. According to the rules of Arabic grammar, L is pronounced as U when it falls between a vowel and a consonant, as in the names Shamsuddin (pronunciation), which is actually written in Arabic as Shamsaldin, or Nizamuddin (pronunciation), which is actually written in Arabic as Nizamaldin. The letter lam (L) becomes silent and gives the sound of U. So A.L.M is actually pronounced as AUM.

The Quran corrects the misunderstanding that Christians had about Spirit (Allah) being three. It does not repudiate the existence of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. There is one to one correspondence between Father, Son and Holy Ghost and the human soul, human intelligence and human body. Every human being is evidence of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Just as Father deposits his Divine Intelligence in the Holy Ghost to form creation, the soul when in the womb of a woman, deposits its intelligence in to the first cell formed out of union of sperm and egg to create a human body. This intelligence becomes centered at the spiritual eye. Even the wisest men have struggled to understand these esoteric truths as Bahaullah so clearly stated. The issue with Bahai writings is that all of Bahaullah writings have not been released at the same time and so the esoteric truths found in Bahaullah's works are slowly coming out. In the meantime, folks have come up with best possible explanations to explain Trinity which fall short. Additionally, Bahaullah himself ordered that some of his works be destroyed because people were not ready for the spiritual truths God revealed to him. So I would not assume there are no spiritual truths outside of Bahaullah's writings.

Hindus refer to AUM as the Name of God because it symbolizes the outward manifestation of God which is due to God's creative power. The Bible refers to it as the Holy Ghost or the Word. Jesus invokes it in the Lord's prayers with "Hallowed be Thy Name" Bahaullah referred to it in the Ode of the Dove verse 45 and in the Tablet of the Deathless Youth. Check this out, especially the words in bold:

This is mention of that which was made manifest in the Year Sixty, in the Days of God, the Powerful, the Help in Peril, the Almighty, the Knower.

When the gates of Paradise swung wide and the Holy Youth came forth, lo! in His hand was a serpent plain!
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a gushing spring.​
Upon His face a veil woven by the fingers of power and might.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Name.
Upon His head a crown of beauty, light for the people of every heaven, every earth.

Tablet of the Deathless Youth

Bahaullah is saying that the Bab was a master of raising Kundalini energy (in His hand was a serpent plain). That is he experienced union with God or he was a Son of God. Bab incarnated with the creative power of God - AUM/Name - behind him (Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Name). And as Bab could raise the Kundalini energy to the highest level, his crown chakra was fully illuminated (Upon His head a crown of beauty, light for the people of every heaven, every earth). That is the Bab was a fully illumined prophet and his wisdom was a guiding light to people living in spiritual darkness.

The spiritual truths that Jesus and Krishna gave are also in Bahaullah's writings. One just has to be receptive to them.

-Venu
 
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Feb 2019
113
Chicago
#29
Venu:

As you may know, Siyyid `Alí Muhammad Shírází, known to the Bahá’ís as The Báb (Gate), was a Manifestation of God appearing in 1844. He was also the harbinger of the One whom God was to make manifest, that promised One being Bahá'u'lláh. In His own revealed Scripture and in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, the Báb is frequently referred to as the “Primal Point”, which is another synonymous term for that ancient, divine, and universal Reality being the Word, the Command, the Primal Will, the Divine Intelligence, the Aum. . . . Following is only a sampling from several of the revealed writings of the Báb related to the reality of the Manifestation of God and the topic of this thread.

“Verily the Point possesseth two stations. One is the station that speaketh from God. The other is the station that speaketh from that which is other than God, a station whereby He expresseth His servitude for the former station. By virtue of the former, the latter worshippeth God in the daytime and in the night season, and glorifieth Him at morn and at eventide.

“The substance of this gate is that God hath fashioned two stations for the Sun of Truth. One is the station of His unknown and unknowable Essence, the Manifestation of His Divinity. Thus, all His revealed divine verses stream forth on behalf of God All else beyond this supreme Sign present within Him is His creation.

“And within the inmost reality of all things there hath been, and will forever continue to be, a sign from God through which the unity of the Lord is celebrated. This sign, however, is a reflection of His Will present within it, through which naught is seen but God. However, within the Will, that supreme Sign is the Will Itself, the Supreme Mirror of God, which hath never referred, nor will it ever refer, to aught but God.... He is the possessor of two signs, that of God and that of creation, and through the latter he worshippeth God and boweth in adoration before Him. In like manner, all things adore their Beloved through the sign of Creation, though it hath never reached, nor will it ever reach, beyond its own sign from God, which is present within it and pointeth unto Him.”

(Translated by Nadar Saiedi, with the assistance of the Reasearch Department of the Bahá’í World Center, and cited in his book ‘Gate of the Heart – Understanding the Writings of the Báb’, p. 46)

-LR
Thanks Larry. I will have to read the excerpt in the proper context and meditate on it to get a proper understanding.
 
Feb 2019
113
Chicago
#30
Bahaullah on Quran's A.L.M (Alif-Lam-Mam)

I have said earlier in this thread that the Quran's A.L.M (Alif-Lam-Mam) is the same as the AUM of Hindu scriptures or the Holy Ghost (Word) of the Bible from which the entire physical creation came out. I was researching in to what Bahaullah might have said about Quran's A.L.M and I found striking similarities between the AUM of Hindu scriptures and Bahaullah's description of Quran's A.L.M. I will first quote from the Bible and Upanishads which are part of Hindu scriptures. God is sometime referred to as Brahman in Hindu scriptures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - Bible

“Brahman is AUM, this whole world is AUM.” — Taittirya Upanishad

“The goal which all the Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at, and which men desire when they lead the life of continence, I will tell you briefly: it is AUM. This syllable AUM is indeed Brahman." — Katha Upanishad

Baha’u’llah says that the alif has a "similitude" in all the worlds of God. "Everything" in creation and everything that will be created is a "[direct] result of its uprightness or its [power of] uprising or a result of its [diverse modes of being solidly] established or its power or might."

The alif also contains within it all the mysteries of the sciences. God has bestowed on it "the wonders of His bounty" for within it is knowledge sufficient for what has past and what will be. Bahá'u'lláh follows with a complex verse suggesting that if various computations, as he outlines them, are performed on the letters, the result would "bedazzle intellects". A person who did this would understand the science of jafr and "attain unto the genesis of the sciences". The definition of jafr is: "The art of divination.

God 'manifests' the letter A in us in many different ways within ourselves even though the A is one reality. From this one alif, God is able to manifest "changeable [human manifestations of the divine] Names and the variegated effects [traces]." And an apprehension of these leads a person to the station of mystical insight or gnosis [irfan]. Such a person sees how God creates diversity by altering the locus of the A and the traces that come about as a result. Despite the diversity, the "Manifesting Reality" remains One and the "thing manifested" remains One. This is something people would readily see if they did not block out the evidences of it within themselves.

Source: Tablet of the 'Light Verse' (Lawh-i-Áyiy-i-Núr), also known as Commentary on the Disconnected Letters