Blessings

Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Somewhat late I would like to say hello to the people in this forum.
My religious background is Roman Catholic, but I find in the works of Báb and Bahāʾullāh some light of truth. Of course I cannot accept the whole revelation of Bahāʾullāh as a continuation of Christianity, but I can accept the revelation of Bahāʾullāh as part of the whole revelation in the history of mankind. I am happy to get involved when I find it necessary and appropriate, but I believe that all people are on their personal path to God. I wish you all a blessed Saturday, Jehoschua.
 
Aug 2019
73
Berlin
Hello, Yehoshua,
nice to welcome you as part of this small but fine community.
Hope you don't get too angry in heated discussions and find joy and enrichment in the conversations.
Baha'u'llah invites us to give up all preprints and approach new insights without prejudice. It is difficult for us individuals to follow this invitation because our imprints are part of our personality.
I know what I am talking about because I was baptized what makes me a Christian, I once spoke the Shahada with which I am Muslim, and when I accepted Baha'u'llah, I became Baha'i. I am in solidarity with Judaism because they believe that all people are accepted by God if they obey the seven Noahid commandments.
Every religion is true in itself because it contains the light of God. They are not true in everything, because this light has been overshadowed more and more over time.
It is not up to us to explain their religion to other people. That was the reason why I found the other discussion difficult. But the basic problem is that we cannot accept the Christian interpretation of Jesus. And not the Islamic interpretation of Christianity and Judaism as far as these are human interpretations. Not even Baha'i's interpretation of the past religions. That is why Baha'i have no sovereignty over interpretation. Neither about the words of Baha'u'llah nor about the other religions. The only certainty are the words of the manifestation itself, as far as they still exist unadulterated.
Have a blessed Saturday, Certitude
 
Jul 2017
483
Olympia, WA, USA
That was the reason why I found the other discussion difficult. But the basic problem is that we cannot accept the Christian interpretation of Jesus. And not the Islamic interpretation of Christianity and Judaism as far as these are human interpretations. Not even Baha'i's interpretation of the past religions. That is why Baha'i have no sovereignty over interpretation. Neither about the words of Baha'u'llah nor about the other religions. The only certainty are the words of the manifestation itself, as far as they still exist unadulterated.
These are excellent points that you have made. All humans have their interpretations and many interpretations might be correct even if they differ, or they could be incorrect. The reason there are so many sects of Judaism and Christianity, indeed of all the older religions, is because of the different interpretations of scripture among the followers. How can we ever know which interpretation is correct or how correct they are? That brought to mind the following passage:

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Hello Tony, Certitude & Trailblazer, Thanks for your nice answers.

What you write, Certitude & Trailblazer, is of course a high claim, it is well conceivable that this claim often cannot be enforced in the discussion, because also we, when we speak "human word and word of God", unite in ourselves when we try to reproduce what we have understood.

The same thing we experience in the prophets of God, what reality was in Jesus Christ, what was united in the Holy Bible: God's word that speaks into history and was always mixed with human word there.

Among my Christian brothers and sisters I sometimes notice this problem, as it happened here. That one tries to explain Judaism to the followers of Judaism. This is a great difficult debate in the history of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity and as I experienced here that people who are at least close to the Baha'i wanted to try to explain my religion to me, we in the church here also have to carry our historical package and have not always behaved correctly towards our older brothers and sisters who belong to Judaism. Muslims have repeated the same mistakes and have not learned from our mistakes, and Baha'i people do not learn from these mistakes either, but repeat them.

The Baha'i faith faces a great challenge because it sees itself as a continuation of previous religions. To convey this logically, however, also requires an academic discourse, because so much has happened and been recognized in religious studies in recent decades. The church has not only exposed itself to the scientific discourse, it has in some cases pursued it almost to the point of self-decomposition.

On the contrary: the deification of nature made scientific research possible in the first place, Jesuits were scientifically decisively active, and historical research is not an enemy of the church, but helps the church to better understand God's word in human words, in his historical circumstances. But why is this possible? Because the church is firmly anchored in Jesus Christ, who is the truth for us.

Here I also see a great construction site in the Baha'i faith. I see no serious discourse about one's own faith and no application of historical truths. When in the German version of Answered Questions it says that Buddha "introduced the doctrine of the unity of God", this stands against any religious scientific and historical research and knowledge and at the same time against what Buddhists have learned in their discipleship. Yes, one can say that one's own prophet said so, but historical falsehoods make one doubt that truth would really be revealed here.

Or if Baha'i refer in their argumentation to the fact that Baha'u'llah was announced in some Bible verses in the same way Muslims claim it, but New Testament science (not the Church) has consensus that these verses cannot be understood as an announcement of a new prophet, then I see no real search for the truth. I also see the reference to one's own prophet as doubtful here. This then has an epistemological character like some Evangelicals who say "But the Bible says that the world was created in 6 days".

Truths of faith are beautiful and important, because they are like a lighthouse, it becomes difficult when truths of faith touch on scientific questions and take precedence over scientific knowledge.

Much of what Baha'u'llah has written I can comprehend, from my own religion, I think he has reminded of many necessary insights once again. With many insights which Christianity already had, but Islam not yet, I see the special mission of the Baha'i in Muslim countries to correct there certain untruths (which also resulted from the refusal of the discourse).
I generally believe that this is our way as believers, that we have to correct ourselves again and again and that we have to direct ourselves towards the truth as centre. We need security in our own ways of life, then we can also accept other people as brothers and sisters in their peculiarity of being believers - we don't have to explain to them how they have to understand their religion and we should humbly assume that they may have understood more than we do. Then we are on the right track. What doesn't work from my point of view is that we make a theological concept and then try to subordinate all other people to that concept. This is not a real unity, it is missionization.

Have a nice Sunday, Jehoschua
 
Aug 2019
73
Berlin
If we are more gracious in dealing with others than with ourselves, we should have laid an important foundation stone. Usually we are very gracious to ourselves and very ungracious in our dealings with others. All our writings encourage and require us to become humble. Science and religion belong together. Scientific knowledge about ancient cultures must refer to literature and tradition. Written literature has only existed for a few centuries before Christ. Therefore the evaluation of old religions and cultures is scientifically difficult.
 

ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
Imho... the Key to unlock many knots is... letting go the (false) dogma... that Jesus was the only son of god ever.

Because its basicly the same (false) dogma... as the wrong interpretation that Mohammed was the last Prophet.

Yes, Jesus was the beloved Son of God.

And Mohammed was 'The Prophet' at his time.

Jesus was the Manifestation of God.

Mohammed was the Manifestation of God.

And Bahāʾullāh also was the Manifestation of God.

But neither was Jesus the only Spirit of Truth.

Nor Mohammed the last spirit of Truth.

Because the spirit of Truth of Christ of Bahāʾullāh is of spherical nature.

Let's not lock up your mind in exclusive terminology. Otherwise no Unity is possible.

Because the spirit of Truth, the Manifestation of Truth, is like the Wind, the Sun and the Rose.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, wherever it comes from. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Light is good in whatsoever lamp it is burning.

A rose is beautiful in whatsoever garden it may bloom.

A star has the same radiance if it shines from the East or from the West.

Be free from prejudice, so will you love the Sun of Truth from whatsoever point in the horizon it may arise.

You will realize that if the Divine light of truth shone in Jesus Christ it also shone in Moses and in Buddha.

The earnest seeker will arrive at this truth. This is what is meant by the ‘Search after Truth’.

It means, also, that we must be willing to clear away all that we have previously learned, all that would clog our steps on the way to truth.

We must not shrink if necessary from beginning our education all over again.

We must not allow our love for any one religion or any one personality to so blind our eyes that we become fettered by superstition!

When we are freed from all these bonds, seeking with liberated minds, then shall we be able to arrive at our goal.

‘Seek the truth, the truth shall make you free.’

So shall we see the truth in all religions, for truth is in all and truth is one!
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Source: Abdu'l-Baha Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 135-137
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
 
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Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Imho... the Key to unlock many knots is... letting go the (false) dogma... that Jesus was the only son of god ever.
Can you give me passages from the Qur'an or the Baha'i scriptures describing a situation where God says to Mohammed or Baha'u'llah "You are my beloved son" or "This is my beloved son“?

Can you give me passages from the Qur'an or the Baha'i scriptures where Mohammed or Baha'u'llah say "I am the truth and the way" ?
 

ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
"Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us,

but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant,

not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

(2.Kor 3,5f)


From the "pure literall letter"... there are no such exakt references as you ask of.

But reading the holy books pure literally in such way... kills anyhow the Spirit.
And it is also not (and never was) the way of the new covenant of Christ.

But reading the holy books with the Spirit of Christ... gives Life and Unity.

There is - for example - no contradiction in saying "the beloved Son of God"... or the "Manifestation of God".

Both referers in the spirit to the same meaning.
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
there are no such exakt references as you ask of
Yes, that is what I think.

No manifestation after Jesus Christ took the risk to present himself as the truth.

No revelation after Jesus Christ contains the statement of God that the manifestation is the beloved Son. This means that from the point of view of Revelation no manifestation since Jesus Christ has been attributed these titles.

I find the argument that it is not about the letter fidelity of a revelation interesting. After all, it is the Baha'i religion that does not find oral tradition sufficient and assumes that a revelation is only reliable if there is something in writing to which one can refer.

But if there are statements in the written testimonies that one does not like, does the written word suddenly count for nothing anymore?