Comforter and Prince of Truth

Apr 2011
1,084
Hyrule
#41
@Walrus, so what are your thoughts about Abdu'l-Baha's commentary?

“Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ‘Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and ‘hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá
My only question at this point is why the Gospel of John uses the phrase "the Prince of this world?" Why not just use the term "Satan" as the author does elsewhere? (John 13.27) According to the text, "Satan" had already possessed Judas. He was already present. Did other Jewish groups, such as the Qumran community, or individual Jewish writers during this time period use a similar phrase ("Prince of this world") to refer to Satan or any other biblical figures?
 
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Jul 2017
421
Olympia, WA, USA
#42
You are missing the point I was making which is that the claims Baha’u’llah made about himself cannot be verified objectively. As to who Baha’u’llah is varies from person to person. To the Bahai he may be manifestation of God. To the Muslim he may be a false prophet and to the atheist he may be a good man. Since the truth about Baha’u’llah changes from person to person, it is relative and subjective. It is not objective as in 2+2 = 4 for a Bahai, Muslim and an atheist. This is simpler than logic 101.
You are missing the point I was making. Baha’u’llah was who He was, regardless of what people believe about Him. It does not matter what people believe because beliefs do not determine reality. So it does not matter if the belief about who Baha’u’llah was varies from person to person.

The fact that Baha’u’llah cannot be verified to be a Manifestation of God objectively is completely moot point because objective proof does not determine who Baha’u’llah was. Proof is just want people want to believe, proof does not determine reality. Reality simply exists. The same can be said about God. Proof is just what people want in order to believe in God, but proof of God’s existence is not what makes God exist, God either exists or not.

Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or not. God knows who He was and God is who determines who He was since God sent Him.

So where does that leave us as believers? That leaves us believing that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God or not believing that. Those of us who are certain that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God know he was a Manifestation of God without objective proof because we have absolute certitude. That is not something we can prove to other people. There is a reason certain people have absolute certitude and others do not, some are guided by God and others are not.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.” The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586
The Bhagavad-Gita was given by Krishna and recorded by Vyasa. Abdul Baha recognized Krishna as a Manifestation of God and so was Vyasa. How do you know Krishna and Vyasa were not Manifestations of God. I wonder how you get that certainty without ever reading the Bhagavad-Gita and lives of Krishna and Vyasa.
I believe that Krishna was a Manifestation of God because that is a Baha’i belief. I do not know how the Bhagavad-Gita got written; all I can do is read the various accounts on the internet, and it leaves me wondering is anybody really knows. This is not comparable to having the original Tablets of Baha’u’llah which are stored in a vault in Haifa, Israel. The Bhagavad-Gita and how it came to be recorded is similar to the Bible. We do not know who all the authors were, but we know that God was behind it because we believe it is the inspired Word of God through men who knew the Moses and Jesus or knew of them.
You are making conclusions about Krishna and Vyasa that are identical to conclusions that Muslims have made about Baha’u’llah.
Why would it matter what Muslims believe about Baha’u’llah? Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or not, period, end of story. What people believe had absolutely nothing to do with it. No, I am not drawing conclusions identical to what Muslims draw because I recognize Krishna as a Manifestation do God whereas Muslims do not recognize Baha’u’llah as a Manifestation do God.
Since the Bahai faith originated from Islam, I suspect it is not entirely free of the fanaticism characteristic of mainstream Islam. You are not going to build a Kingdom of God on earth with this kind of fanaticism and ignorance.
What fanaticism and ignorance? The Baha’i Faith did not originate from Islam, it originated from God, and it is an entirely separate revelation than Muhammad received, so Islam is a separate religion. The fanaticism of mainstream Islam is because the books of Islam has been changed and corrupted, as Baha’u’llah wrote:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
You are sowing the seeds of conflict when you promote a belief system like the one you cling to because belief systems from different religions can never be reconciled and they will inevitably clash with each other.
You are right, these various belief systems will never be reconciled because they are different religions and they have been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination as Baha’u’llah wrote. And there is no need for them to be reconciled because eventually everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249
If you cannot accomplish peace with Muslims in the region where the Bahai faith originated, then any talk of the Bahai faith promoting global peace and brotherhood does not cut much ice. You would be sounding like a person who cannot maintain peace in your own backyard but want to preach and promote it in the entire society.
That is not possible because Muslims are fanatics and they are the ones who persecuted the Bab and Baha’u’llah in the first place. Why would they want or “live in peace” with a religion that claims to supersede their religion?

You cannot blame the Baha’is for being unable to bring about peace with others who do not accept their religion. This is unjust and illogical.
Anyone can say anything on the internet. Is that your standard of truth? Why don't you go with the authentic sources if you care about the truth. I have read on the internet that Abdul Baha made certain predictions for the year 1957 and when those predictions turned out to be false, the UHJ quietly wiped out his failed predictions from Bahai publications. Is that the truth since it is found on the internet? I would be an idiot if I embrace anything I find on the internet without verifying it's authenticity.
I did not say that the internet was my standard of truth. I just said what I found there. I was not doing a research project; I was just looking for something by which I could respond to your post.
When Jesus said "Thy kingdom come" he was referring to the kingdom of God within us. It is only when the kingdom of God is manifest within us, the will of God on earth can be done and that is why "Thy kingdom come" precedes "Thy will be done in earth". If the kingdom of God is not manifest with in us, we will act under the influence of human nature which means more wars including religious conflicts. But if the the kingdom of God is manifest within us, then we become peaceful, loving, understanding and accepting of others and it would be possible to carry out God's will on earth. That's what Jesus was saying. You cannot separate the words of Jesus you quoted from the ones I quoted. Both have to be reconciled.
I do not have to reconcile the verses from Luke with the verses from Matthew, beause they are referring to two different things (1) within us and (2) on earth.
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Jesus was talking about a physical kingdom on earth, not about a kingdom within us.
He said “on earth” He did not say “within us.” We cannot wait to start building that Kingdom until everyone has the kingdom of God within them. We have to work on individual spiritual transformation while we are trying to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

Do you even watch any news on TV? Do you have any idea what is going on in the world? The old world order is crumbling and a new one needs to be raised up to replace it. This is what Baha’is have been enjoined to do so we are not going to go back and read the Bible and try to figure out what Jesus meant because it does not matter now. The Dispensation of Jesus Christ has been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. You do not have to believe that because you are not a Baha’i.

It really does not matter to me what the New Testament says because I am a Baha’i and I believe what Baha’u’llah wrote supersedes what Jesus purportedly said. I do not have to make the Baha’i Faith fit into the older religions because it won’t fit. One cannot make a newer religion like the Baha’i Faith fit into the same mold as the older religions such as Christianity because Baha'i is a much more expansive revelation and has many more components that the older religions did not have; so Baha’i cannot be made to fit their mold.

Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”
Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
You just sound like Christian ministers before the year 2000 claiming that the Y2K problem was the apocalypse predicted in the Bible and that Jesus would come again in 2000. Well, we all know how that went. These kind of prophesies make good bed time stories for children. I am too old for that.
I do not care what I sound like. I am accurately representing what Baha’is believe, and that is my sole responsibility. If you do not like it you do not have to believe it. That is the beauty of free will.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......
What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.” The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117
“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4
 
Jul 2017
421
Olympia, WA, USA
#43
@Walrus, so what are your thoughts about Abdu'l-Baha's commentary?



My only question at this point is why the Gospel of John uses the phrase "the Prince of this world?" Why not just use the term "Satan" as the author does elsewhere? (John 13.27) According to the text, "Satan" had already possessed Judas. He was already present. Did other Jewish groups, such as the Qumran community, or individual Jewish writers during this time period use a similar phrase ("Prince of this world") to refer to Satan or any other biblical figures?
I do not know that Bible very well. I got that quote from Abdu'l-Baha from Duane because I asked about that verse because I was posting to a Christian on another forum who brought up that verse...
I do not try to figure out what Bible verses mean unless I am posting to a Christian and we are discussing them. I do not think it really matters what the Bible verses mean; I have my hands full figuring out what the Writings of Baha'u'llah mean and I think that is all that matters in this new age.
 
Feb 2019
164
Chicago
#44
You are missing the point I was making. Baha’u’llah was who He was, regardless of what people believe about Him. It does not matter what people believe because beliefs do not determine reality. So it does not matter if the belief about who Baha’u’llah was varies from person to person.
You don't seem to get that reality in subjective and relative matters is determined in a person's mind. So the reality about Bahaullah is not objective.

The fact that Baha’u’llah cannot be verified to be a Manifestation of God objectively is completely moot point because objective proof does not determine who Baha’u’llah was. Proof is just want people want to believe, proof does not determine reality. Reality simply exists.
You asked "How accurate do you think Bhagavad-Gita is? Can you prove everything in it is the Truth from God?". Your double standards are quite obvious.

Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or not. God knows who He was and God is who determines who He was since God sent Him.
The same arguments can be made about Vyasa and Krishna but you adopt blatant double standards to raise questions about their spiritual statures and the works they authored.

So where does that leave us as believers?
Believers are left in the darkness of ignorance. When you believe you basically saying that your have come to firm conclusions about something you do not know. That's why you have confidence without clarity that comes from evidence alone. If you are honest, you will admit that you do not know what you do not know and then the possibility of knowing opens up through independent research. But if you sit in your room and believe that grass is of pink color, that's what you will preach without ever bothering to step outside to find out the real color of grass.

There is a reason certain people have absolute certitude and others do not, some are guided by God and others are not.
All the religious fanatics who have fought jihads and crusades made identical claims.

I do not know how the Bhagavad-Gita got written; all I can do is read the various accounts on the internet, and it leaves me wondering is anybody really knows.
You are looking for trash on the internet to support your confirmation bias. You can also check out web sites of Hindu prophets of this age but you don't care simply because your intent is to trash the Bhagavad-Gita.

The Bhagavad-Gita and how it came to be recorded is similar to the Bible. We do not know who all the authors were, but we know that God was behind it because we believe it is the inspired Word of God through men who knew the Moses and Jesus or knew of them.
That's a good example of your ignorance.

Why would it matter what Muslims believe about Baha’u’llah? Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or not, period, end of story.
It matters because Muslim beliefs about Bahaullah led Muslims to persecute Bahaullah and his followers. It must be a strange world you come from where the fanatical religious beliefs that lead to religious persecution of innocents do not matter. What is the color of grass in your world?

No, I am not drawing conclusions identical to what Muslims draw....
Yes you are because you said "The Bhagavad-Gita is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah because it was not written by a Manifestation of God." although Krishna gave the Bhagavad-Gita.

What fanaticism and ignorance?
I gave an example above.

The Baha’i Faith did not originate from Islam,
Shoghi Effendi said Baha’i Faith originated in Islam or is an offshoot of Islam. It just shows you do not know the history of the Baha’i Faith despite being a Bahai for 48 years. I am not surprised you know nothing about other religions but are happy to dismiss them as irrelevant.

I did not say that the internet was my standard of truth. I just said what I found there.
If you are not sure what you found on the internet is true, why present it here to make your point. If you care about truth, you will verify it before presenting it but you don't care about the truth. You are looking for internet trash to malign non-Bahai religions.

I was just looking for something by which I could respond to your post.
Exactly. You were looking for something regardless of whether it was true or not as long as it supports your confirmation bias.

Jesus was talking about a physical kingdom on earth, not about a kingdom within us.
He said “on earth” He did not say “within us.”
He did not say "Thy kingdom come on earth, Thy will be done". He said "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth"
 
Jul 2017
421
Olympia, WA, USA
#45
You don't seem to get that reality in subjective and relative matters is determined in a person's mind. So the reality about Baha’u’llah is not objective.
Reality just is. It is not determined by what people believe.

Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or He was a false prophet. There are no other options. If He was a false prophet who said He got a revelation from God He was not a good man, He was a liar and a deceiver. The only other logical possibility is that He was a deluded psychotic.

People are free to believe whatever they want to about Baha’u’llah , but Baha’u’llah will still BE whoever He was.
You asked "How accurate do you think Bhagavad-Gita is? Can you prove everything in it is the Truth from God?" Your double standards are quite obvious.
There is no double standard.

Nobody needs to be able to prove that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Truth from God in order to believe it is. They either are or they are not.

Nobody needs to be able to prove that the Bhagavad-Gita is the Truth from God in order to believe it is. It either is or it isn’t.

Proof is just want people want to believe, proof does not determine reality. Reality simply exists.
The same arguments can be made about Vyasa and Krishna but you adopt blatant double standards to raise questions about their spiritual statures and the works they authored.
There is no double standard.

Vyasa and Krishna are either Manifestations of God or not just as Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or not.

You can believe whatever you want to because you have free will. Likewise, I can believe whatever I want to because I have free will. I believe that Krishna was a manifestation of God but I do not believe that Vyasa was a Manifestation of God.
Believers are left in the darkness of ignorance. When you believe you basically saying that you have come to firm conclusions about something you do not know. That's why you have confidence without clarity that comes from evidence alone. If you are honest, you will admit that you do not know what you do not know and then the possibility of knowing opens up through independent research. But if you sit in your room and believe that grass is of pink color, that's what you will preach without ever bothering to step outside to find out the real color of grass.
I have been a Baha’i for 48 ½ years so I have done my research. I do not have to research all the older religions in order to know that the Baha’i Faith is the truth from God. Some people have to research all the older religions before they decide to become a Baha’i but not everyone has to.

The evidence that indicates that The Baha’i Faith is the Truth from God for this age is voluminous.
“There is a reason certain people have absolute certitude and others do not, some are guided by God and others are not.”

All the religious fanatics who have fought jihads and crusades made identical claims.
That does not prove I was not guided. I was either guided or not.

There are two logical possibilities: A = I was guided; B = I was not guided.

That there have been many people who were not guided does not mean that there were never any people who were guided.

It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to assume that just because many or most people were not guided that nobody was ever guided.

Baha’u’llah wrote that those who recognized Him were guided. Since I am a Baha’i, I believe I was guided.

“Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God’s Will, than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 11
“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39
"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
You are looking for trash on the internet to support your confirmation bias. You can also check out web sites of Hindu prophets of this age but you don't care simply because your intent is to trash the Bhagavad-Gita.
That is a false accusation. I never trashed the Bhagavad-Gita. All I said is “I do not know how the Bhagavad-Gita got written; all I can do is read the various accounts on the internet, and it leaves me wondering if anybody really knows.”

Please do not distort my words. Wondering is not trashing.
That's a good example of your ignorance.
Well if you think I was wrong, enlighten me with what you believe, although that does not mean I will also believe it.

The hundred-dollar question is why it bothers you that I believe differently than you do. I am not telling you that you should believe what I believe.

Calling people ignorant and all manner of other fault-finding and statements to the effect that you know more than I do is in-congruent with the Baha’i Faith teaches. Perhaps Hinduism has other teachings, I don’t know. Is putting other people down conducive to spirituality?

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)​
“Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy . . . Beware, beware that any one rebuke or reproach a soul, though he may be an ill-wisher and an ill-doer.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of Abdu’l-Bahá v1, p. 44)​
“All religions teach that we should love one another; that we should seek out our own shortcomings before we presume to condemn the faults of others, that we must not consider ourselves superior to our neighbours! We must be careful not to exalt ourselves lest we be humiliated.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 147)​

Last I checked the scriptures, we are not supposed to be judging other people and looking at their faults. Rather, we are supposed to be looking at our own faults. But maybe Hinduism did not teach that… Note that I said “maybe” because I do not know.

Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
44: O COMPANION OF MY THRONE! Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom for evermore.
66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
It matters because Muslim beliefs about Baha’u’llah led Muslims to persecute Baha’u’llah and his followers. It must be a strange world you come from where the fanatical religious beliefs that lead to religious persecution of innocents do not matter. What is the color of grass in your world?
I did not say it does not matter that Muslims persecute Baha’is, I said it does not matter what Muslims believe about Baha’u’llah because their beliefs do not determine who Baha’u’llah was.
Yes you are because you said "The Bhagavad-Gita is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah because it was not written by a Manifestation of God." although Krishna gave the Bhagavad-Gita.
Do you have any proof that Krishna gave the Bhagavad-Gita, but even if He did everyone knows that Krishna did not write it Himself. That is why I said it is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah . There is proof that Baha’u’llah wrote His Tablets because we have the original Tablets and they have been authenticated by modern methods of handwriting analysis.

There is no competition between Hinduism and the Baha’i Faith because BOTH Krishna and Baha’u’llah were Manifestations of God.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

"What fanaticism and ignorance?"
I gave an example above.
More fault-finding.
Shoghi Effendi said Baha’i Faith originated in Islam or is an offshoot of Islam. It just shows you do not know the history of the Baha’i Faith despite being a Bahai for 48 years. I am not surprised you know nothing about other religions but are happy to dismiss them as irrelevant.
Please quote to me where Shoghi Effendi said that the Baha’i Faith is an offshoot of Islam or stop making the claim.

The Baha’i Faith is based upon a Revelation that Baha’u’llah received from God, it is a new revelation and thus a new religion. The Baha’i Faith is to Islam as Christianity was to Judaism. Jesus was a Jew and Christianity grew out of Judaism and became a separate religion. Likewise Muhammad was a Muslim and the Baha’i Faith grew out of Islam and became a separate religion.

The Baha’i Faith is not a sect of Islam anymore than Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

That is a straw man because I never dismissed the older religions as irrelevant. I only said that they are not what God wants us to be following in this new age because they do not address the problems that we have in this age:

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
He did not say "Thy kingdom come on earth, Thy will be done". He said "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth"
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 6:10

If you look at all the English translations, only six of 59 translations say “in earth.” 51 of the English translations say either “on earth” or “On earth,” one translation says “upon the earth,” and one translation says something completely different.

I am sure glad there are not that many different translations of the Writings of Baha’u’llah.
 
Feb 2019
164
Chicago
#46
Reality just is. It is not determined by what people believe.
No, subjective reality varies from person to person because people experience it within their own minds and the reality about Bahaullah is a subjective reality. There is no way anyone can objectively prove that Bahaullah is a manifestation of God. The reality about Bahaullah varies from person to person and unlike 2+3=5 which can be objectively proved by adding 3 objects to 2 objects resulting in a total of 5 objects, you cannot objectively prove that Bahaullah is manifestation of God and have everyone agree on it. There is no belief when it comes to objective reality. Why do you have to believe that 2+3=5 ? It can be proved like I described.

Baha’u’llah was either a Manifestation of God or He was a false prophet. There are no other options.
There are other options. An atheist might consider him a good man. A social worker might consider him a good leader. So you see, the world is not all black and white. There are a range of colors. But people conditioned by religious dogma stick to a binary mode.

Proof is just
want people want to believe, proof does not determine reality. Reality simply exists.
Proof and belief are as different as the Sun and the Moon. People cling to beliefs even without proof or evidence and often time proof destroys one's beliefs. There was a time people believed the Earth was flat and that belief was destroyed when proof to the contrary was provided. As far as reality is concerned, it could vary from person to person even when it simply exists. For example, a color blind person may not be able to see all the colors and for him there may be no difference between a red rose and a pink rose. So even though both the roses simply exist, the reality about them is perceived differently by different people.

I have been a Baha’i for 48 ½ years so I have done my research. I do not have to research all the older religions in order to know that the Baha’i Faith is the truth from God. Some people have to research all the older religions before they decide to become a Baha’i but not everyone has to.
If you do not want to research older religions, that's your choice and no one should have issues with that but then you should stop commenting on other religions when your knowledge on them is close to nothing. Why make ignorant and dismissive comments about other religions on one hand and claim that you are trying through the Bahai faith to bring about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. You are not going to succeed in that noble goal when your means is not honorable. You are trying to make the Bahai Faith stand tall by chopping off the heads of other religions. That will never build any good will for the Bahai Faith. Frankly, if everyone on this forum had your attitude, I would lose all interest in the Bahai Faith.

The evidence that indicates that The Baha’i Faith is the Truth from God for this age is voluminous.
I am not doubting the divine origins of the Bahai Faith. But you obviously have not studied the Hindu scriptures. If you care to do you will realize that Hindus are the People of the Library (as opposed to People of the Book).

Baha’u’llah wrote that those who recognized Him were guided. Since I am a Baha’i, I believe I was guided.
God speaking through Prophet Mohammed also said in the Quran 3:110 that "Muslims are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind"
So by your own logic, the persecution of the Bahai by Muslims is because God has guided them to be the best of the peoples.
Do you see any problem with your belief system? This should be simpler than logic 101...kind of like logic 95.

That is a false accusation. I never trashed the Bhagavad-Gita.
You said "The Bhagavad-Gita is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah because it was not written by a Manifestation of God. The only Manifestations of God for which we have the original scriptures penned in their hands are the Bab and Baha’u’llah. The next most authentic scripture we have is the Qur’an since it was dictated by Muhammad and written down by scribes. We have nothing of the sort for Jesus or Moses or any other Manifestation of God."

How do you know Krishna and Vyasa were not manifestations of God? Are you in a position to identify every manifestation of God that ever walked on this planet. You will never be able to make up for your ignorance with arrogance that demeans the spiritual stature of Vyasa. How do you know the Bhagavad-Gita we have today is not the original one. Many avatars of Hinduism and Western philosophers testified to it's truth and even saintly souls like Mahatma Gandhi who has the unique distinction of liberating India from British rule through peaceful means had this to say about Bhagavad-Gita:

"When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and I see not one ray of hope on the horizon, I turn to Bhagavad-Gita and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. Those who meditate on the Gita will derive fresh joy and new meanings from it every day.” - Mahatma Gandhi

“In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-gita, in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seem puny and trivial.” - Henry David Thoreau

“I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-gita. It was the first of books; it was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us.”
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


“When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous.” - Albert Einstein

May be you can consider what these men have said about the Bhagavad-Gita and develop some humility?

That does not mean there are no spiritual truths contained in the Bhagavad-Gita but it is not identical to the Will of God because it was not written BY a Manifestation of God. This is logic 101 stuff.
The problem with your approach is that you have arrogated to yourself the authority to decide who is a manifestation of God and who isn't. You do that out of your ignorance. There is no way you can prove or disprove that Vyasa was a manifestation of God. So the best you can say is that you do not know. But you do not admit that you do not know because your irrational belief system has given your certainty without clarity. A sure sign of religious fanaticism.

The hundred-dollar question is why it bothers you that I believe differently than you do. I am not telling you that you should believe what I believe.
Your beliefs do not bother me but when you keep dismissing other religions as relics of the past that are distorted, not meant for this age, having corrupted scriptures etc it should be ok to challenge your questionable claims and agenda.


Is putting other people down conducive to spirituality?
It is a bit too late to ask that question but I am still glad you did. Can you tell me why you did not ask yourself that question when you were putting down Christians and the Bible.

I did not say it does not matter that Muslims persecute Baha’is, I said it does not matter what Muslims believe about Baha’u’llah because their beliefs do not determine who Baha’u’llah was.
And my point was that it does matter what Muslims believe about Baha’u’llah. It is only because they believed he was a false prophet, they persecuted him. If they had the ability to meditate on Bahaullah's teachings and perceive in their minds the spiritual vibrations behind his words, they would have honored him as a true prophet. So you see, how belief systems are one of the major sources of violence today.

Do you have any proof that Krishna gave the Bhagavad-Gita, but even if He did everyone knows that Krishna did not write it Himself. That is why I said it is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah.
I truly feel sorry at your levels of ignorance. Vyasa was a manifestation of God who was in tune with Krishna. The Bhagavad-Gita was given by Krishna on a battle field but Vyasa was a spiritual giant who could remotely perceive Krishna's words and record them. Vyasa wasn't even at the location where the Bhagavad-Gita was given. There is more than one way to validate the spiritual truths in a scripture. The best way is to meditate on the truths and realize them in your consciousness. But I know that is not your way. The whole world is not going to follow your way. If you are able to declare without even reading the Bhagavad-Gita that it is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah, you are essentially trying to replace your ignorance with religious arrogance.

Please quote to me where Shoghi Effendi said that the Baha’i Faith is an offshoot of Islam
He said it more than once but I think one example from his writings should be sufficient. Here you go:

They [Baha’is] must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islám—the source and background of their Faith—and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur’án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner, and with the laws revealed by its Author. — Shoghi Effendi, letter dated 25 December 1938 to the Bahá’ís of the West, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Advent of Divine Justice, Pages 43-72

Can you read Shoghi Effendi saying that Islam is the source and background of the Bahai Faith and I said "Shoghi Effendi said Baha’i Faith originated in Islam or is an offshoot of Islam" Just in case it is helpful, here are the meanings of offshoot and I used the second meaning.

off·shoot
/ˈôfˌSHo͞ot,ˈäfˌSHo͞ot/

1. side shoot, shoot, sucker, tendril, runner, scion, slip, offset, sprout, sprig, stem, twig, branch, bough, limb, spur;

2. a thing that originated or developed from something else.

So please do not take offense when I say your posts show your ignorance. This is just another example of your ignorance.

That is a straw man because I never dismissed the older religions as irrelevant. I only said that they are not what God wants us to be following in this new age because they do not address the problems that we have in this age:
If they are not what God wants us to be following in this new age, it implies they are irrelevant in this age. How can you deny that unless you are stuck in logic -0.0000000001.
 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
421
Olympia, WA, USA
#47
No, subjective reality varies from person to person because people experience it within their own minds and the reality about Baha’u’llah is a subjective reality.
Subjective reality is a logical contradiction because the two words contradict each other. Reality is what actually exists, whereas subjective is based upon personal feelings.

Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search

Reality: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them: https://search.yahoo.com
There is no way anyone can objectively prove that Baha’u’llah is a manifestation of God.
But that does not matter. Baha’u’llah IS who He IS regardless of our ability to prove that. That is the reality.
The reality about Baha’u’llah varies from person to person….
No, the reality of Baha’u’llah does not vary, because Baha’u’llah was whoever He was, period.

The subjective thoughts and feelings regarding who Baha’u’llah was vary from person to person.
There are other options. An atheist might consider him a good man. A social worker might consider him a good leader. So you see, the world is not all black and white. There are a range of colors. But people conditioned by religious dogma stick to a binary mode.
Logic is true or false, either/or. There are no other options unless you want to discard logical thinking.

It does not matter what an atheist or anyone else thinks. Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God. He was either a Manifestation of God or He was not a Manifestation of God. If He was not a Manifestation of God He was either a liar or He was delusional. If He was a liar He was not a good man or a good leader. If he was delusional there is no reason to believe anything He wrote.
As far as reality is concerned, it could vary from person to person even when it simply exists. For example, a color blind person may not be able to see all the colors and for him there may be no difference between a red rose and a pink rose. So even though both the roses simply exist, the reality about them is perceived differently by different people.
The perception of colors is not reality, it is just the perception someone has. It is subjective.
The Reality of Color Is Perception
Color Is Subjective

The beliefs someone has are just perceptions. They might be congruent with reality or not.
Beliefs vary from person to person, but reality is one.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.
“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.”Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.
If you do not want to research older religions, that's your choice and no one should have issues with that but then you should stop commenting on other religions when your knowledge on them is close to nothing. Why make ignorant and dismissive comments about other religions on one hand…
Show me where I commented on other religions and dismissed them, or stop accusing me of such. I have repeatedly said I do not know much about other religions, except Christianity. I have said I do not think we need the older religions anymore, but that is not dismissive, that is part of my Baha'i beliefs.
… and claim that you are trying through the Bahai faith to bring about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. You are not going to succeed in that noble goal when your means is not honorable. You are trying to make the Bahai Faith stand tall by chopping off the heads of other religions. That will never build any good will for the Bahai Faith. Frankly, if everyone on this forum had your attitude, I would lose all interest in the Bahai Faith.
I am not chopping off the heads of other religions simply because I believe that the Baha’i Faith is the religion God wants humanity to follow in this new age. I am just trying to follow what Baha’u’llah wrote and obey His Authority. If you are not a Baha’i you are under no obligation to do that, but I am.

Baha’is are never going to succeed in the goal of spreading the Cause of Baha’u’llah by bending the truth and saying that you can keep your older religions and still be a Baha’i. It does not work that way. I just happen to be honest about it. If any Baha’i on here wants to show me where Baha’u’llah said we could be a member of all the other religions and be a Baha’i I am all ears.

What Baha’u’llah told us to do can be summarized in these two passages:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331
I am not doubting the divine origins of the Bahai Faith. But you obviously have not studied the Hindu scriptures. If you care to do you will realize that Hindus are the People of the Library (as opposed to People of the Book).
I do not know what that means but if what Hindus believe contradicts what Baha’u’llah wrote I am obliged to dismiss it. However, I won’t dismiss any scriptures that contain the eternal spiritual truths that have been revealed since the beginning of humankind.
God speaking through Prophet Mohammed also said in the Quran 3:110 that "Muslims are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind"
So by your own logic, the persecution of the Bahai by Muslims is because God has guided them to be the best of the peoples.
Do you see any problem with your belief system? This should be simpler than logic 101...kind of like logic 95.
God DID guide them, but only during the Dispensation of Muhammad. We are now living under the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah. What the Qur’an says was true for the Dispensation of Muhammad, just like what Jesus said was true during His Dispensation:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And now Baha’u’llah is saying the same thing to the Baha’is:

“Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bahá. Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur’án, and later in the Bayán, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 46
You said "The Bhagavad-Gita is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah because it was not written by a Manifestation of God. The only Manifestations of God for which we have the original scriptures penned in their hands are the Bab and Baha’u’llah. The next most authentic scripture we have is the Qur’an since it was dictated by Muhammad and written down by scribes. We have nothing of the sort for Jesus or Moses or any other Manifestation of God."
That is not trashing. That is simply stating the truth. Unless you can procure original scriptures penned in the hands of Krishna, it is not comparable to what we have for Baha’u’llah. That does not mean that the revelations are not comparable, I was only referring to the authenticity of scriptures. I would say the same thing to Buddhists or Jews or Christians.
How do you know Krishna and Vyasa were not manifestations of God? Are you in a position to identify every manifestation of God that ever walked on this planet.
I know that Krishna was a Manifestation of God because it is a Baha’i belief. I don’t know that Vyasa was not a Manifestation of God because it is not a Baha’i belief. There is no REASON for me to identify all the Manifestations of god that ever walked the earth because Baha’u’llah is the Manifestation of God for this age. There is no reason for me to go rummaging around in the attic for clothes I wore when I was 10 years old because they do not fit me anymore.
You will never be able to make up for your ignorance with arrogance that demeans the spiritual stature of Vyasa.
Show me where I ever demeaned Vyasa. I do not KNOW about the spiritual stature of Vyasa so I do not speak about it, because I do not speak about things I do not know about.
Calling me ignorant and arrogant shows that you lack ESSENTIAL spiritual qualities that have been taught by all the Manifestations of God.
How do you know the Bhagavad-Gita we have today is not the original one. Many avatars of Hinduism and Western philosophers testified to it's truth and even saintly souls like Mahatma Gandhi who has the unique distinction of liberating India from British rule through peaceful means had this to say about Bhagavad-Gita:
You either have original scriptures of the Bhagavad-Gita or not. It is a yes/no question. I decided to look it up on the internet and of course there is much information. I am not going to believe something just because it is posted on the internet, but below is one thing I found. Can you tell me if you agree with it?

Raj Supe (Kinkar Vishwashreyananda), Author, Poet, Editor & Seeker​
Answered Aug 15, 2018 · Author has 470 answers and 239.2k answer views​
The Vedas and Bhagavad Gita, which is a part of Mahabharata, are part of extensive knowledge which is contained in Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Religion which is called Hinduism). This knowledge was never written down, it was passed on orally, by word of mouth, from Guru to Shishya. Of course, after the invention of books, this knowledge/ the texts were committed to paper. But there is no original.​
You must understand these texts are not humanly inspired (paurusheya), they are divine (a-paurusheya). In that sense, these texts are part of God Himself. God archives these texts, in His cosmic consciousnesss and whenever a human being logs into that cosmic consciousness through intense samadhi, these texts can be downloaded so to speak.​
The sages are the eternal keepers of these texts. In India, the Brahmin community was supposed to learn and teach the texts. But it’s not restricted to one community, anyone with good conduct, brahmacharya and strong spiritual practice, could and can dive deep into the sea of this eternal wisdom.​
The Original is in God’s mind. And every human being has a divine part which can link to the divine consciousness… astrally.​
May be you can consider what these men have said about the Bhagavad-Gita and develop some humility?
You are making a straw man because I NEVER said that the Bhagavad-Gita was not divinely inspired. Can you show some humility yourself and stop putting words in my mouth?
The problem with your approach is that you have arrogated to yourself the authority to decide who is a manifestation of God and who isn't. You do that out of your ignorance.
No, I rely upon the Baha’i Faith teachings to know who is a Manifestation of God and who isn’t. I have no authority to speak for anything God has done, and neither do you. Anything you say is just your personal opinion, unless you can prove it.
There is no way you can prove or disprove that Vyasa was a manifestation of God. So the best you can say is that you do not know. But you do not admit that you do not know because your irrational belief system has given your certainty without clarity. A sure sign of religious fanaticism.
No, I am going to say that I KNOW but I can say I do not believe that He was. Conversely, you cannot KNOW that he was a Manifestation of God; all you can do is believe.

The Baha’i Faith is not an irrational believe system, it is a Revelation from God.
Your beliefs do not bother me but when you keep dismissing other religions as relics of the past that are distorted, not meant for this age, having corrupted scriptures etc it should be ok to challenge your questionable claims and agenda.
Go right ahead but you are not going to change what I believe. It should not bother you if you know it is not true. Nothing YOU believe bothers me one single bit. Do you see me challenging your Hindu beliefs? No, because they are no threat to my beliefs. This is psych 101 stuff.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172
I said: “Is putting other people down conducive to spirituality?”

It is a bit too late to ask that question but I am still glad you did. Can you tell me why you did not ask yourself that question when you were putting down Christians and the Bible.
Why did you not give me a DIRECT answer to my question? “Is putting other people down conducive to spirituality?”

The fact that you have to immediately turned it back on me on me instead of looking at your own behavior shows a lack of spiritual qualities. Why not just admit that you have insulted me? Maybe you do not even realize that and if not that is really sad. It is all in black and white, you calling me ignorant and arrogant, etc. You can only correct behavior if you are aware of it.

These are personal insults because they are directed at me:

You said: “You are not going to build a Kingdom of God on earth with this kind of fanaticism and ignorance.”

You said: “You will never be able to make up for your ignorance with arrogance that demeans the spiritual stature of Vyasa.”

You said: “I truly feel sorry at your levels of ignorance.”

You said: “That's a good example of your ignorance.”

You said: “This is just another example of your ignorance.”

You said: “How can you deny that unless you are stuck in logic -0.0000000001.”

These are all insults in case you don’t know it. Do you see any Baha’is on this forum calling people ignorant? Only arrogant people demean other people, in case you know nothing about psychology. People who have humility do not point out the faults of others. They look only at their own faults.

I did not put down any Christians or the Bible. I might disagree with Christians’ interpretations of the Bible, but that is not putting down any Christians in particular. No other Baha’i would still be posting ton you the way you constantly criticize and berate me. These are personal attacks; they are not about my beliefs. Apparently, you cannot separate my beliefs from who I as a person and just limit yourself to talking about my beliefs.
I truly feel sorry at your levels of ignorance. Vyasa was a manifestation of God who was in tune with Krishna.
I am not obligated to believe that Vyasa was a Manifestation of God just because you believe that. What about that do you NOT understand?

As I said many posts ago, you can believe anything you want to because you have free will, and I can believe what I want to because I have free will.
The Bhagavad-Gita was given by Krishna on a battle field but Vyasa was a spiritual giant who could remotely perceive Krishna's words and record them. Vyasa wasn't even at the location where the Bhagavad-Gita was given. There is more than one way to validate the spiritual truths in a scripture. The best way is to meditate on the truths and realize them in your consciousness. But I know that is not your way. The whole world is not going to follow your way. If you are able to declare without even reading the Bhagavad-Gita that it is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah, you are essentially trying to replace your ignorance with religious arrogance.
As I said many posts ago, you can believe anything you want to because you have free will, and I can believe what I want to because I have free will.
He said it more than once but I think one example from his writings should be sufficient. Here you go:

They [Baha’is] must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islám—the source and background of their Faith—and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur’án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner, and with the laws revealed by its Author. — Shoghi Effendi, letter dated 25 December 1938 to the Bahá’ís of the West, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Advent of Divine Justice, Pages 43-72

Can you read Shoghi Effendi saying that Islam is the source and background of the Bahai Faith and I said "Shoghi Effendi said Baha’i Faith originated in Islam or is an offshoot of Islam" Just in case it is helpful, here are the meanings of offshoot and I used the second meaning.

off·shoot
/ˈôfˌSHo͞ot,ˈäfˌSHo͞ot/

1. side shoot, shoot, sucker, tendril, runner, scion, slip, offset, sprout, sprig, stem, twig, branch, bough, limb, spur;

2. a thing that originated or developed from something else.

So please do not take offense when I say your posts show your ignorance. This is just another example of your ignorance.
“the source and background of their Faith” is not the same as saying the actual Revelation of Baha’u’llah came from Islam. All I was saying is that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is a new revelation and that it came from God. If it was a sect of Islam then it would be based upon the Qur’an, not upon the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

“those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith” indicates that the Baha’i Faith is a separate Faith from Islam.

“apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God” means that no other scriptures are comparable to the Qur’an or the Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
If they are not what God wants us to be following in this new age, it implies they are irrelevant in this age. How can you deny that unless you are stuck in logic -0.0000000001.
More insults, you just cannot help yourself can you? You have to be right about everything, I have never heard you admit you were wrong ONCE.

The thing is that you are right about what you think but you are not right about what I think, because you are not in my mind. The humble thing would be to ask me what I meant by what I said rather than assuming you know what it implies.

No, just because the older religions are not what God wants us to be following in this new age since they do not address the problems that we have in this age, that does not mean they are irrelevant. The spiritual teachings of all the older religions are just as relevant as they ever were because they are all the same. Those eternal spiritual verities are found in the Baha’i Faith and I do not need more than one religion.

“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136
 
Last edited:
Feb 2019
164
Chicago
#48
Subjective reality is a logical contradiction because the two words contradict each other. Reality is what actually exists, whereas subjective is based upon personal feelings.
Subjective reality is not a logical contradiction because the reality about an object can vary from person to person. This is common sense 101. Reality is always perceived in your own consciousness. For example, if you "see" a bird sitting on tree, the bird does not actually enter your being to prove the reality of it's existence. The light falling on the bird is reflected and enters your eyes where it is converted to electrical signals that are transmitted to your brain through optical nerves. And your brain uses the electrical signals to reconstruct the image of the bird and displays it on the screen of your consciousness. So scientifically speaking, you are actually seeing the bird in your own mind as strange as it may sound to you. A color blind person may not perceive all the colors of the bird whereas another person can perceive all the colors. So the reality is about the bird could be different for different people and this is called subjective reality. You say "subjective is based upon personal feelings" and if that is true are you are proving my point that your belief about Bahaullah which you assert as the reality is because of your personal feelings that cannot be objectively verified and beliefs of Muslims about about Bahaullah or Mohammed that they assert as reality is because of their personal feelings that cannot be objectively verified either. And so we have two groups of people confusing their belief induced subjective reality with objective reality. But the truth is that these two groups are asserting subjective realities that are contradictory and there is no objective way to verify the status of Mohammed or Bahaullah.

Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions
If an object weighs 60 pounds on earth, it would weigh 10 pounds on moon. In this case, there are no personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Just scientific facts and this is called subjective reality because the weight of the object is subject to where it is weighed.

Reality: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them
The state of things as they actually exist is dependent on who is making that determination and so it is subjective as well. Just take the example of weighing an object on earth and moon. For the same object, without altering the way it actually exists, you will get two different weights for it when you ask people on earth and moon.

Baha’u’llah IS who He IS regardless of our ability to prove that. That is the reality.
If you cannot prove something to others, then it is your personal belief or personal feeling or personal opinion or a personal experience and so it cannot be called a reality for everyone on a public forum. Don't you see the contradiction in asserting a personal belief as truth or objective reality for everyone.

No, the reality of Baha’u’llah does not vary, because Baha’u’llah was whoever He was, period.
"Whoever he was" is a personal opinion that varies from person to person. You seem to be missing that point.

Logic is true or false, either/or. There are no other options unless you want to discard logical thinking.
It is not always either/or. You cannot insist that a woman is either a mother or a daughter. She could also be a sister or a wife. She could be all four depending on who you ask. The reality in this case is again subjective. You have a very simplistic thinking and want to cast everything in to either/or mode.

It does not matter what an atheist or anyone else thinks.
It may not matter to you but it matters to other people. Everyone is not meant to be your clone and people construct their own reality just as you have constructed yours.

The beliefs someone has are just perceptions. They might be congruent with reality or not.
So why do you assert Bahai beliefs as reality. Here is just one example in this comment of yours: "I know that Krishna was a Manifestation of God because it is a Baha’i belief."

So all Bahai beliefs automatically become reality. What about Shoghi Effendi's claim that the Tenth Avatar mentioned in the Bhagavad-Gita is Bahaullah? Is that also a reality and if so why is that the Bhagavad-Gita has no reference to the Tenth Avatar?

Show me where I commented on other religions and dismissed them, or stop accusing me of such.
May be you have a short memory. What about your comments that the gospels are all stories and are not reliable when in fact Abdul Baha considered them authentic and even Bahaullah quoted them in some of his conversations. Your characterization of the gospels was quite dismissive.

I have said I do not think we need the older religions anymore, but that is not dismissive, that is part of my Baha'i beliefs.
That is the definition of a dismissive attitude.

I am not chopping off the heads of other religions simply because I believe that the Baha’i Faith is the religion God wants humanity to follow in this new age.
Where does Bahaullah say that every person on this planet has to become a Bahai. Doesn't it mean replacing all religions with Bahai faith. Shoghi Effendi may have envisioned it in World Order of Bahá'u'lláh but that's different from what is in Bahá'u'lláh teachings.

God DID guide them, but only during the Dispensation of Muhammad. We are now living under the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah. What the Qur’an says was true for the Dispensation of Muhammad, just like what Jesus said was true during His Dispensation:
That's again your personal belief which is not shared by Muslims or even Hindus. By your logic Hindus can claim that we are now living under the dispensation of Ramakrishna Paramahansa - an avatar that incarnated after the death of Bahaullah.

That is not trashing. That is simply stating the truth.
If you live in a slum, you won't call it a slum. You will call it your neighborhood. Likewise, trashing other religions is truth for you because you spend your time trashing other religions. If you can perceive the esoteric truths in Bahaullah's mysticism, you will find them in other religions as well and then you won't trash them like you are doing now. But you neither care about Bahaullah's mysticism or the mysticism in other religions. You are getting carried away by Shoghi Effendi's agenda.

Unless you can procure original scriptures penned in the hands of Krishna, it is not comparable to what we have for Baha’u’llah.
That's a ridiculous standard of comparison. Bahaullah himself never adopted it for he had great regard for the Quran which Mohammed never penned personally since he was illiterate. Jesus never penned a single book but Abdul Baha and Bahaullah respected the truths found in the gospels.

I know that Krishna was a Manifestation of God because it is a Baha’i belief.
So your belief is a reality to you but other people's beliefs cannot be reality to them?

I don’t know that Vyasa was not a Manifestation of God because it is not a Baha’i belief.
You are now changing your position because earlier you declared that Vyasa was not a Manifestation of God which is why I said you were demeaning his spiritual stature. Now you say you do not know. Here is what you said about Vyasa earlier "The Bhagavad-Gita is not comparable to the Writings of Baha’u’llah because it was not written by a Manifestation of God"

You did say that Vyasa was not a Manifestation of God. Just read your words I quoted.

There is no REASON for me to identify all the Manifestations of god that ever walked the earth because Baha’u’llah is the Manifestation of God for this age.
Then you should not be commenting on a Manifestation of God like Vyasa. You want to have it both ways. You don't care to investigate about Vyasa but declare that is not a Manifestation of God.

The Baha’i Faith is not an irrational believe system
Interacting with you, it does come across as an irrational belief system but thanks to Bahaullah's mysticism, I know it is divinely inspired.

I am not obligated to believe that Vyasa was a Manifestation of God just because you believe that.
I am not asking you to believe in anything. I am merely presenting the truths I perceive and if you care you can perceive them as well if you meditate. But you are more foccused on preaching the faith than perceiving the esoteric truths through meditation.

“the source and background of their Faith”
is not the same as saying the actual Revelation of Baha’u’llah came from Islam. All I was saying is that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is a new revelation and that it came from God.
That's not what you said. Here are your words. You first said:

"The Baha’i Faith did not originate from Islam"

and then you said:

"Please quote to me where Shoghi Effendi said that the Baha’i Faith is an offshoot of Islam or stop making the claim"

And Shoghi Effendi said that Islám is the source and background of the Bahai Faith.

So quite clearly you are not knowledgeable of the Bahai faith.

No, just because the older religions are not what God wants us to be following in this new age since they do not address the problems that we have in this age
That is just your belief that is not shared by a vast majority of the people.
 
Jul 2017
421
Olympia, WA, USA
#49
So the reality is about the bird could be different for different people and this is called subjective reality.
I see no point getting caught up in semantics, because the same words can mean different things to different people, and they mean different things depending upon the context.

How people perceive the bird is subjective, because people perceive the bird differently since all people are different, but the bird is either a bird, or the bird is not a bird.
You say "subjective is based upon personal feelings" and if that is true are you are proving my point that your belief about Baha’u’llah which you assert as the reality is because of your personal feelings that cannot be objectively verified and beliefs of Muslims about about Baha’u’llah or Mohammed that they assert as reality is because of their personal feelings that cannot be objectively verified either.
I see no point covering what I have already said, so I will try to be brief and go at it from a slightly different angle.

If Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, it does not matter if not one person believes that. He was still a Manifestation of God, because God sent Him.

It does not matter at all if it can be objectively verified that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God since objective verification does not make Him who He was. Objective verification is simply what people want to have in order to be sure that He was who He was, but there is no way to prove that He was a Manifestation of God, that is a matter of faith. Of course, there is a lot of evidence upon which to base that faith, so it is not blind faith.
And so we have two groups of people confusing their belief induced subjective reality with objective reality. But the truth is that these two groups are asserting subjective realities that are contradictory and there is no objective way to verify the status of Mohammed or Baha’u’llah.
I never said there was a way to verify that Muhammad or Baha’u’llah were Manifestations of God; if they were, they were, if they weren’t they weren’t.
If you cannot prove something to others, then it is your personal belief or personal feeling or personal opinion or a personal experience and so it cannot be called a reality for everyone on a public forum. Don't you see the contradiction in asserting a personal belief as truth or objective reality for everyone?
Now we might actually be getting somewhere.

I think you have a misconception. I never implied that anyone else should believe what I believe and accept it as reality. It is what “I believe” to be reality, and I could be right or wrong.

Thus I am not asserting a personal belief as truth or objective reality for everyone.

I am only saying that there is such a thing as reality. I have either discovered it or not. I believe I have discovered it but nobody else should believe that based upon anything I say or believe. Everyone should do their own investigation and determine what the truth is. The best way to do that is to look at the deeds and words of Baha’u’llah, not what other people say about Him.

As Baha’u’llah wrote in the passage below, one should never use the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”

“IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.
No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.
The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4
"Whoever he was" is a personal opinion that varies from person to person. You seem to be missing that point.
Whoever Baha’u’llah was is NOT determined by what people believe, it is determined by what God did. God either spoke to Baha’u’llah or He did not speak to Baha’u’llah. This is a true/false proposition. There is no gray area.

Baha’u’llah was either who He claimed to be or He is not. If He was not a Manifestation of God, then He was the biggest liar on the face of the earth or He was completely deluded. You can pick between these three but if you say He was just a good man then you would have to believe that good men lie through their teeth. I cannot believe that because lying is the foundation of all evil.

“Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 321
It does not matter what an atheist or anyone else thinks.
You quoted only part of what I said. Of course it matters what atheists think, but that does not determine what is true or false.

I said: It does not matter what an atheist or anyone else thinks. Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God. He was either a Manifestation of God or He was not a Manifestation of God. If He was not a Manifestation of God He was either a liar or He was delusional. If He was a liar He was not a good man or a good leader. If he was delusional there is no reason to believe anything He wrote.

What that means is that what people think does not determine what is true. Truth is truth regardless of what people think. Falsehood is falsehood regardless of what people think.
It may not matter to you but it matters to other people. Everyone is not meant to be your clone and people construct their own reality just as you have constructed yours.
THAT is exactly what I suggested you do by what I said above. Are you going to base your beliefs upon what other people think? Baha’u’llah warned us against doing that.

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected.For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”
I said: The beliefs someone has are just perceptions. They might be congruent with reality or not.

You said: So why do you assert Bahai beliefs as reality. Here is just one example in this comment of yours: "I know that Krishna was a Manifestation of God because it is a Baha’i belief."
I did not assert that Baha’i beliefs are reality. I said “I believe” they represent reality.
So all Bahai beliefs automatically become reality. What about Shoghi Effendi's claim that the Tenth Avatar mentioned in the Bhagavad-Gita is Baha’u’llah? Is that also a reality and if so why is that the Bhagavad-Gita has no reference to the Tenth Avatar?
I prefer to use the world truth because it suits this context better.

I told you some time ago that I do not know about Shoghi Effendi's claim that the Tenth Avatar mentioned in the Bhagavad-Gita is Baha’u’llah. I do not speak about what I do not know about. I do not need to know everything and I do not have time to check every single thing that is in the Baha’i Writings. If it was important to me I would check it out. Since you are a Hindu can certainly understand why it is important and you should check it out if you are interested in the Baha’i Faith.

You have a certain belief about who the Tenth Avatar was supposed to be and I am not going to believe you just because you told me that. If I wanted to know why Shoghi Effendi said what He did I would do further research.

When a person becomes a Baha’i, they accept everything that Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote as the truth and that is because of the Covenant. I believe that Baha’u’llah was inerrant because He was a Manifestation of God, but that is not true for Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, so it is possible they made mistakes, although many Baha’is will never concede to that. So if I encounter something that does not seem quite right, I try to figure out why they wrote it, and more often than not it is just something I misunderstood.
I said: Show me where I commented on other religions and dismissed them, or stop accusing me of such.

You said: May be you have a short memory. What about your comments that the gospels are all stories and are not reliable when in fact Abdul Baha considered them authentic and even Baha’u’llah quoted them in some of his conversations. Your characterization of the gospels was quite dismissive.
Abdu’l-Baha said that the Bible is the Word of God, but he did not say that all the stories in the Bible are true stories, and in fact he said they are not.

Baha’is are told that if Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha quoted the Bible we are to believe what they wrote as well as their interpretation of a verse or verses, but anything they have not specifically quoted is up for grabs so to speak. It is left to our discretion whether we want to believe it or not. Abdu’l-Baha clearly said that the story of Adam and Eve and the story of the bodily resurrection of Jesus were symbolic and not literal so that is what I believe.

I did not dismiss the religions, I dismissed some Christian interpretations of the Bible, because in some cases their interpretations cannot be correct if the Baha’i Faith is true, since their interpretations contradict the Baha’i beliefs. For example, it is not a Baha’i belief that Jesus was God incarnate or that Jesus is going to return in the same body, so I have to dismiss that belief.
I said: I have said I do not think we need the older religions anymore, but that is not dismissive, that is part of my Baha'i beliefs.

You said: That is the definition of a dismissive attitude.
If you want to keep using that word you are free to, but it is an evocative word. I do not think we need the older religions anymore than a Muslim believes we need Judaism or Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism, not any more than a Christian believes we need Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. Just because I am a Baha’i and I believe that all religions are the truth from God does not mean I have to believe that they are all necessary in the present age. The primary message of Baha’u’llah was the oneness of God, the oneness of religion and the oneness of mankind, and that can never be realized as long as the adherents to the older religions refuse to embrace the new religion. Moreover, until which time the adherents of the older religions are willing to relinquish their religions and become Baha’is, the Baha’i Faith will not grow. By far the biggest reason for lack of growth is the older religions. Atheists only account for about 7% of the world population.

This might sound harsh, but it is just logic. A person cannot be a member of more than one religion and do it justice. Moreover since many religious beliefs contradict each other, one has to decide which religion they believe is true. I believe that the spiritual verities of all the older religions are true but religion is about more than than the spiritual truths that apply to the individual; religion is also a practice, and there are Laws to follow. Moreover, religion is also a framework for social change.
Where does Baha’u’llah say that every person on this planet has to become a Bahai. Doesn't it mean replacing all religions with Bahai faith. Shoghi Effendi may have envisioned it in World Order of Bahá'u'lláh but that's different from what is in Bahá'u'lláh teachings.
Baha’u’llah does not say that has to happen right away but He certainly implies it will happen in the future, but it will be strictly voluntary. By the time it happens, people will choose to be part of one religion.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249
“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.

“His Cause” refers to the Cause of Baha’u’llah; the “Divine Standard” refers to the standard of Baha’u’llah.
That's again your personal belief which is not shared by Muslims or even Hindus. By your logic Hindus can claim that we are now living under the dispensation of Ramakrishna Paramahansa - an avatar that incarnated after the death of Baha’u’llah.
Yes, it is my personal belief and it is either true or false. There is not gray area.
If you live in a slum, you won't call it a slum. You will call it your neighborhood. Likewise, trashing other religions is truth for you because you spend your time trashing other religions. If you can perceive the esoteric truths in Baha’u’llah's mysticism, you will find them in other religions as well and then you won't trash them like you are doing now. But you neither care about Baha’u’llah's mysticism or the mysticism in other religions. You are getting carried away by Shoghi Effendi's agenda.
Saying that I believe that the older religions are not suitable for the new age is not trashing any more than saying that my 1986 Honda Prelude is not suitable for a trip across the country. It just won’t make that trip, and the older religions will not be sufficient for the NEEDS of this new age of mankind. Shoghi Effendi did not have his own agenda. Whatever he wrote was Baha’u’llah’s agenda.

I am not a mystical type of person, I am more analytical and logical, but that does not mean that I do not CARE about mystical writings in other religions or Baha’u’llah’s mystical writings. However, I already told you that Baha’u’llah’s mystical Writings are only one part of His religion. I do not trash them but rather I accept everything Baha’u’llah wrote.

It really is not a requirement that I be mystical in order to be a Baha’i. The only requirement is that I believe that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God.
So your belief is a reality to you but other people's beliefs cannot be reality to them?
That is a straw man. I never ever said that. Everyone has a right to their beliefs or their non-beliefs. I firmly believe in free will.
Then you should not be commenting on a Manifestation of God like Vyasa. You want to have it both ways. You don't care to investigate about Vyasa but declare that is not a Manifestation of God.
You are FREE to believe that Vyasa and any others you believe are Manifestations of God are Manifestations of God. I have no reason to investigate Vyasa because I am not looking for another Manifestation of God. One is quite enough for me.
Interacting with you, it does come across as an irrational belief system but thanks to Baha’u’llah's mysticism, I know it is divinely inspired.
Apparently you want to take Baha’u’llah’s mystical works and trash the rest of His religion. That is your choice because you have free will, but keep in mind that you are disrespecting Baha’u’llah by trashing all His other writings, including his program for elimination of prejudice, social equality, the unity of mankind, and His blueprint instructions for building New World Order. What, did you think that Shoghi Effendi made all that up?
I am not asking you to believe in anything. I am merely presenting the truths I perceive and if you care you can perceive them as well if you meditate. But you are more foccused on preaching the faith than perceiving the esoteric truths through meditation.
I have a different personality than you and what I believe to be the purpose of life is different from what you believe. I am not focused on my own relationship to God because I have more pressing things to do. Maybe someday I will focus more on myself but for now I am doing what Baha’u’llah has enjoined:

Go thou straight on and persevere in His service. Say: O people! The Day, promised unto you in all the Scriptures, is now come. Fear ye God, and withhold not yourselves from recognizing the One Who is the Object of your creation. Hasten ye unto Him. Better is this for you than the world and all that is therein. Would that ye could perceive it!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 314
“O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330
“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
“If they arise to teach My Cause, they must let the breath of Him Who is the Unconstrained, stir them and must spread it abroad on the earth with high resolve, with minds that are wholly centered in Him, and with hearts that are completely detached from and independent of all things, and with souls that are sanctified from the world and its vanities.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 200-201
I said: No, just because the older religions are not what God wants us to be following in this new age since they do not address the problems that we have in this age

You said: That is just your belief that is not shared by a vast majority of the people.
Why would it matter what the majority of people believe?

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

Do you see any of the older religions that are addressing the problems we have in this new age? Nearness to God is not going to address the social and environmental problems we have in the world today, and besides that, most people are not opting for nearness to God, they are living for the material world of dust and their worldly desires. The first step towards progress is for people to sacrifice self for God and others, but that is not happening, and that is why the world is in such turmoil.

There is a Buddhist on another forum I post on who I greatly admire for his detachment from the world. Baha’is could learn a lot from Buddhists. If I was not a Baha’i I could easily live a live a quiet life of inner reflection, but that is not what we have been enjoined to do. We have been enjoined to be engaged in the world and share what we have with other people.
 
Feb 2019
164
Chicago
#50
Now we might actually be getting somewhere.

I think you have a misconception. I never implied that anyone else should believe what I believe and accept it as reality. It is what “I believe” to be reality, and I could be right or wrong.
Thanks for the clarification. You seem to assert your beliefs as the truth or reality. At least that's the impression I always got from your posts. Now that you have said you believe something to be reality and you could be right or wrong about it, I understand why we had a disagreement. Coming from a Hindu background, I never thought anyone could "believe something to be reality" because to the Hindu, reality is through realization only and never through belief. Anything I believe is just that - it is a belief not supported by realization of the truth.

Since we had quite a bit of discussion on subjective reality, objective reality and reality, I wanted to share some scientific information on how an observer can change reality by doing nothing more than simply observing.

In a study reported in the February 26 issue of Nature (Vol. 391, pp. 871-874), researchers at the Weizmann Institute of Science have now conducted a highly controlled experiment demonstrating how a beam of electrons is affected by the act of being observed. The experiment revealed that the greater the amount of "watching," the greater the observer's influence on what actually takes place.

When a quantum "observer" is watching Quantum mechanics states that particles can also behave as waves. This can be true for electrons at the submicron level, i.e., at distances measuring less than one micron, or one thousandth of a millimeter. When behaving as waves, they can simultaneously pass through several openings in a barrier and then meet again at the other side of the barrier. This "meeting" is known as interference.

Strange as it may sound, interference can only occur when no one is watching. Once an observer begins to watch the particles going through the openings, the picture changes dramatically: if a particle can be seen going through one opening, then it's clear it didn't go through another. In other words, when under observation, electrons are being "forced" to behave like particles and not like waves. Thus the mere act of observation affects the experimental findings.

Source: Quantum Theory Demonstrated: Observation Affects Reality

So if the observer can change reality by an act of observation, what is reality then? Is reality something that is not observed or observable? The answer is a resounding YES according to Hindu scriptures which state that the world is an illusion and reality cannot be known through the senses. Hence the need for meditation to realize the Truth (reality) by rising above the senses.

As Baha’u’llah wrote in the passage below, one should never use the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”
Thanks for sharing that. I spoke the same truth in another way when I said to realize the stature of any manifestation of God like Vyasa or Ramakrishna Paramahansa one will have to meditate on their teachings. I am not suggesting you do that but to comment on their stature without even studying their teachings is not appropriate in my opinion.

What that means is that what people think does not determine what is true. Truth is truth regardless of what people think. Falsehood is falsehood regardless of what people think.
Truth (God) is absolute but truth of this world is relative.

If you want to keep using that word you are free to, but it is an evocative word. I do not think we need the older religions anymore than a Muslim believes we need Judaism or Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism, not any more than a Christian believes we need Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. Just because I am a Baha’i and I believe that all religions are the truth from God does not mean I have to believe that they are all necessary in the present age.
If they are not necessary for the present age, God would have allowed them to perish. Instead, I perceive that God is constantly sending new avatars and prophets to nourish the ancient religions like Hinduism.

The primary message of Baha’u’llah was the oneness of God, the oneness of religion and the oneness of mankind, and that can never be realized as long as the adherents to the older religions refuse to embrace the new religion. Moreover, until which time the adherents of the older religions are willing to relinquish their religions and become Baha’is, the Baha’i Faith will not grow. By far the biggest reason for lack of growth is the older religions.
That's not what Bahaullah taught. I guess, by your logic oneness of mankind means there has to be one race on this planet. So you are going to pick one race as the winner and wish for the destruction of all the other races. You are wanting a zero sum game. The gain of the Bahai has to come at the expense of other religions. If the other religions are not destroyed, the Bahai faith will not grow. I know you used the word "relinquish" instead of "destroy" but it is just a matter of semantics. Whether you say "the fetus was aborted "or "the pregnancy was terminated" they mean the same thing. This is the same attitude that is found in radical Islam, except that the radical muslims are willing to kill non-muslims to spread Islam. Your means may not involve physical violence but your words are certainly not peaceful.

Baha’u’llah does not say that has to happen right away but He certainly implies it will happen in the future, but it will be strictly voluntary.
I am not reading his words that way. You have bought in to Shoghi Effendi's agenda which has deviated from Bahaullah's message. Admit it.

Saying that I believe that the older religions are not suitable for the new age is not trashing any more than saying that my 1986 Honda Prelude is not suitable for a trip across the country.
That shows how poor your knowledge of religions is. Apparently you never understood that religions contain eternal truths which is why Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away". The Sanskrit name for Hinduism is Sanatana Dharma which translates to "A way of life based on Eternal truths". A car deteriorates with time and becomes useless eventually but something that is eternal never deteriorates with time. So your analogy of the car is quite absurd and reflects your profound ignorance. And the funny part is that on one hand you admit you have not studied other religions but on the other had you declare they are not good enough for this age. If the Bahai faith is so good, why do you have Abdul Baha disagreeing with his brother Muhammend Ali and expelling him from the faith and why do you have Shoghi Effendi expelling his own parents from the faith. By the time of Shoghi Effendi, all male members of Bahaullah's family have been expelled. So Shoghi Effendi could not find even one male member of Bahaullah's family loyal to the faith. Really? I do not know the truth but as an outsider, the impression I get which could be wrong is that Shoghi Effendi was making sure no one would threaten his position or the Bahai faith wasn't good enough to keep even the family members of Bahaullah in its fold. Too bad either way. How did someone like Shoghi Effendi who described the anticipated world government as the "world's future super-state" with the Bahá'í Faith as the "State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power, fail to name the next Guardian before he died or at least leave proper instructions in case of his untimely death?

I have no reason to investigate Vyasa because I am not looking for another Manifestation of God. One is quite enough for me.
Then you should not be commenting on Vyasa, especially in a demeaning way.

Apparently you want to take Baha’u’llah’s mystical works and trash the rest of His religion. That is your choice because you have free will, but keep in mind that you are disrespecting Baha’u’llah by trashing all His other writings, including his program for elimination of prejudice, social equality, the unity of mankind, and His blueprint instructions for building New World Order.
That's a gross mischaracterization of position. The only thing in Baha’u’llah writings that I have a trouble accepting is his prediction that there will be no prophet for the next 1000 years. But I am thinking, perhaps the prediction was for his lineage which right now consists of the Bab and Bahaullah but I have to read his words in the proper context. Could you share a link to the tablet.

Maybe someday I will focus more on myself but for now I am doing what Baha’u’llah has enjoined:
Yeah, you want to save others before you save yourself. That's like the blind leading the blind. Good luck with that.

Do you see any of the older religions that are addressing the problems we have in this new age?
Yes, I do.

Nearness to God is not going to address the social and environmental problems we have in the world today
Yes it will because when you love God, you will love His creation and care for it out of that love.
 
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