Comforter and Prince of Truth

Jul 2017
442
Olympia, WA, USA
#61
I said: Can you explain what you mean by: “reality is through realization only and never through belief.

You said: Anything I believe is just that - it is a belief not supported by realization of the truth.

Let's say I am a middle school student and my physics teacher tells me that my weight will change depending on the location my body is weighed in. I refuse to believe it because I think it is a strange and unusual claim or I believe it because I think my teacher knows better. In either case I am just believing in one thing or the other. In the first case I believe my weight will not change with location and in the second case I believe it will change with location. And in either case I have no realization of the truth or reality through actual experience. But if I become an astronaut and go to the Moon and weigh my body there, I will realize through experience (not belief) that my body will weigh only a sixth of what it weighs on Earth.

This scientific way of realizing a truth is possible in spiritual domain also. For example in many religious traditions, spiritually advanced souls often times assert that God is love, peace, bliss and joy. Should we blindly believe them or adamantly refuse to believe them? Or is there a way to validate their assertions through our own experience? These assertions can be verified personally. For example, if you seat yourself correctly in a quiet place, detach your mind from external concerns which is not easy, focus your attention at the point between eye brows and chant AUM correctly a number of times (varies from person to person depending on the purity of their consciousness), you can feel peace and joy in your own being. The reason AUM has this effect on your body and mind is because AUM is the vibration through which the human mind and body have been created and by chanting it correctly you are harmonizing the energy patterns in your mind that have been disturbed by restless thoughts and various kinds of feelings and emotions generated in the heart. The AUM of the Hindu scriptures became Ameen of the Arabs and Amen of the Europeans. The Bible refers to it as the WORD (and Holy Spirit) and Quran as ALM. Baha’u’llah in his commentary on the Disconnected letters of the Quran also said that God created everything out of ALM. According to rules of Arabic grammar when L falls between a vowel and consonant, it is pronounces as U. So ALM is actually pronounced as AUM. Those who try this experiment sincerely can realize Holy Spirit (AUM) manifesting in their own being as peace and joy and at that point it won't be a mere belief that God is peace and joy.
Thanks for explaining that. As I have said, I think in terms of logic so what immediately came to mind is this: Any belief can be true or false, and it cannot be proven either way. What we think we are realizing could mean many things but it does not prove anything to anyone but ourselves, because it is REAL to us.
I said: Does that mean that whatever you realize you consider to be the truth?

You said: When you realize a spiritual truth like I described above, it becomes a part of your being. There is nothing to consider.
I understand what you mean because on another forum there are some mystics, one in particular who I have posted to quite often, not so much lately, but when I first joined the forum in December 2017.
I said: What do you mean by truth?

You said: That varies from person to person. What is truth for one person may not be the truth for another because in a world of relativity there are no absolutes. To me personally, anything that leads me to God is truth and anything that leads me away from God is falsehood and I prefer to validate the truth/falsehood within my own consciousness. As I said before we always experience life within our own being, never outside. Even if a bird is sitting on a tree, we actually see the bird in our own mind, never on the tree. That may sound strange but I gave you scientific reasoning for it earlier.
I think there are universal truths that were revealed by God to humanity. Although we may perceive them differently, they are true because they were revealed by God. The doctrines of religions are not necessarily true because they were invented by humans, and they often distort the meanings of the original scriptures.

As a general guideline, I agree that anything that brings us closer to God is truth and anything that distances us from God is falsehood. That has to be validated in our own consciousness, because that is where perception takes place. How that enters our consciousness varies but if we wind up in the same place I do not see a problem with that. Some people get close to God by praying, others by reading scriptures, others by experiencing nature.
I said: Do you think you can know the truth about God by realization (however you attain that)?

You said: Yes, I think so.
That was a loaded question because “truth about God” could mean many different things to different people. To me it means the Attributes of God; e.g., Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. How do you come to know these truths (that God has these Attributes) by realization?
There are many ways to God and each religion could offer at least one way to God. We are free to choose the religion that suits us the best. Religion is just like a vehicle that takes us to God but often times people get so identified with their religion that they want their religion to reign supreme over all other religions. It is called spiritual ego and it destroys humility in the best case and promotes disharmony and violence in the worst case. Lack of humility translates to lack of love and with that comes the spiritual downfall of man. Live and let live promotes peace, harmony and good will. Religious supremacy that is so characteristic of middle eastern religions never promoted peace and harmony.
I think I know where you got some of these ideas because I did some reading on the teachings of Ramakrishna. He said that we should pick one religion, because all are paths to God. I have picked the Baha’i Faith. I have no interest in seeing the Baha’i Faith reign supreme over the older religions, but I believe that it is the religion that God wants humanity to be following in this new age, because Baha’u’llah wrote that. I believe that eventually there will be only one religion, but I do not even know what it will be called, because that might not happen during the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah.
I said: Beliefs can guide us in the right direction.

You said: Not in all cases. Some of the worst crimes have been committed by people promoting their religious beliefs. It is inevitable that belief systems will create conflicts. If you believe God is the Father and I believe God is the Mother, there is no way to reconcile those beliefs and if we each gather several thousand followers because of our belief systems that we want to promote, it is only a matter of time before these belief systems clash with each other as they compete for more followers. And for all that we know God may be Spirit without a gender which can play the role of Father and Mother just like water which is a liquid can become ice (solid) and water vapor (gas).
Religions create conflicts because they have different beliefs and people cling to those beliefs and insist they are the only right ones. The only way to have peace and harmony is for there to be only One Religion.
And after your death, if you find out that the afterlife is nothing like it was promised, you have no way of contacting the Bahai UHJ in Israel and address your problem.
In case you do not know, Baha’u’llah did not tell us much about the afterlife. All Baha’is are promised is a safe approach to God. The details of the afterlife remain unread:

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.
Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.
As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346
Thanks for sharing these words of Baha’u’llah "The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirstydreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion."

Compare the above words of Baha’u’llah with a similar assertion from a Hindu avatar who goes in to a greater detail...
Thanks for the quotes. I had to cut those out of my post back to you because I exceeded my character limit for the post. As I said before science is not a subject I am proficient in, even at a base level.
I will post a story about Ramakrishna Paramahansa in which he made some claims about himself and you can make up your mind. But such claims are not of real value. The real value is in the teachings and the kind of individuals these teachings make of man. Ramakrishna Paramahansa's chief disciple was Swami Vivekananda and many of Ramakrishna Paramahansa's disciples were like the apostles of Jesus in spiritual stature.
I agree that the teachings are of the most valueand after I saw you posted that I decided to do some of my own research, so I know a little about his life and I have several Word documents saved which contain his most important teachings. None of his teachings contradict what Baha’u’llah wrote but I also found nothing that is not also contained in the Baha’i Faith.

I cannot compare him to Jesus since I believe that Jesus was a universal Manifestation of God, but I can believe that his disciples were like the apostles of Jesus in spiritual stature.
Baha’u’llah did not reveal everything. There have been times when Baha’u’llah wanted some of his Tablets to be destroyed because he said people were not ready for those truths. The Ode of the Dove is a good example. It was originally 2000 verses long but now it is only 128 verses. At other times, he was constrained by the persecution of Muslims in freely expressing the truths he knew. He certainly did not teach any techniques of Yoga and meditation that work directly with life force. That spiritual path called Raja Yoga is missing from Baha’u’llah's Four Valleys but is found in the Hindu scriptures along with the four paths corresponding to the Four Valleys.
Apparently you need more but I do not need more. I have more than enough since I cannot even utilize all I have. If I need specific meditation techniques, I have no problem going outside the Baha’i Writings. Do you know that Shoghi Effendi told us to read eight other books for every Baha’i book we read? He was not talking about fiction.

Baha’u’llah explained why He did not reveal everything He knew:

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.
How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.
Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176

You probably have more spiritual capacity than I do, so maybe you wish He had revealed more or not thrown away so many Tablets, but Baha’u’llah was addressing all of humanity, so He did not want to reveal what could not be understood by most or what would overwhelm most people.

I do not know any Baha’is who think that they need more than what Baha’u’llah revealed. Only about 15% of His Tablets have thus far been translated into English, so we will have much more to read as time goes on and more are translated.
It is a matter of semantics. The end result for the older religion is the same - it ceases to exist.
That is true, but if that is the Will of God, why would you want to resist it? Could you ever know more than an Omniscient God? It won’t affect you this won’t happen until the future, and you will be in the spiritual world by then.
The end result for the child in the womb is the same - it is dead.
That is true, but these religions will not be dead until which time it is the Will of God for them to die. You must know that everything that happens in this world is predestined. Baha’is are not going to try to do what Muslim extremists do and eliminate people of other religions so they can reign supreme. It has to be a process and it will be slow.
It sounds like you would like to see all the non-Bahai voluntarily relinquish their religions and embrace Bahai faith and the end result is the death of non-Bahai religions.
I would like to see that only because I believe it is what God wants, as revealed by Baha’u’llah, not because it matters to me one way or another. But realistically, this is not going to happen for a very long time, not unless God intervenes.
The Bahai faith can grow organically like Hinduism has grown. There is no concept of formal conversion in Hinduism. You are either born in to Hinduism or if you are non-Hindu that likes Hinduism, you can use your free will given by God to practice Hinduism if you so choose but you are never going to be converted. The greatness of a religion is not dependent on the number of followers. It is dependent on the kind of people it produces. Remember a tree is known by its fruit. During the second world war when all the Christian majority countries in Europe abandoned the fundamental teachings of Jesus, it was millions of Hindus in India that demonstrated through their peaceful struggle for independence under the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi that the teachings of Jesus are very much practical. There has not been any other country in the recorded history of mankind which has been able to accomplish such a feat.
As I said above, that is organic growth is exactly what will happen, unless God intervenes. One of my best Baha’i forum friends posted that to be just yesterday.
No, the greatness of a religion is not dependent on the number of followers, and all religions grow slowly over time. In case you did not know this...

India became the largest Bahá'í community in the world in 2000 after less than a century of mass teaching, with an official Bahá'í population of between 1.7 million to over 2 million, The expansion of the numbers and organization of the community has helped grow the publishing agencies of the religion until the Indian ...​
And you want Hindus to embrace the Bahai faith - a religion in which it's leaders like Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi could not resolve disagreements with family members in the spirit of brotherhood and instead decided to use force and expel them from the faith. No, I think Hindus are better off in Hinduism instead of embracing a faith in which even the family members including wives and children of the founder did not have a place.
You do not know anything about the history of the Baha’i Faith, what really happened, so until you do, you should not comment on the behavior of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Do I comment on behaviors of anyone in Hinduism?

Do you do know anything about the Covenant of Baha'u'llah so you do not know what a Covenant-breaker is. These people have to be expelled from the religion in order to maintain unity. Otherwise the Baha’i Faith would eventually end up with a thousand sects, just as happened in the older religions. You might think that is okay but it is a source of conflict between believers in the same religion. Have you ever seen how much Christians disagree? I have because I have been on many Christian forums and another Religious Forum with many different kinds of Christians.

You are making this into a competition between Baha’i Faith and Hinduism just like Christians make it into a completion between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith. If you want to be a Hindu, be a Hindu, nobody should ever join a religion they don’t want to join. But at least you should know the facts about the Baha’i Faith before commenting.
"exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony" does not translate to everyone has to become Bahai. It could mean that there is something good in Baha’u’llah's teachings and those who find it suited for their personality and needs can embrace it and so God is offering it to mankind.
“His Cause” is that Cause of Baha’u’llah. Since the passage says God will have “exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth” that means that everyone will recognize Cause of Baha’u’llah as exalted, which means placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard. That does not mean that everyone will become Baha’is. They will still have a choice.

With all due respect, I cannot understand why you think that religions that are revealed by God should be suited for our personality. If that was the case, then there would always need to me many religions since there are many personalities. Why can’t people try to adjust their personality to what God reveals? There are many different personalities within the Baha’i Faith and we do not agree on everything or practice the Baha’i Faith the same way, but we all believe in Baha’u’llah and we agree on the core principles of the Baha’i Faith and that is what binds us together.
I do not see the word "everyone" anywhere in the quote. You are seeing what you want to see.
Baha’u’llah was addressing everyone, since His Revelation was for all of humanity.
The older religions like Hinduism are constantly being revived for this age by today's avatars. Since you have not studied today's avatars, I think you have come to the wrong conclusion. That's understandable. So your dream that everyone will or should become Bahai will be a pipe dream.
The pipe dream is your dream that Hinduism is going to be revived. All older religions have similar dreams but God did not send Baha’u’llah so that He could revive the older religions, but rather so he could revive their spiritual teachings that people had all but forgotten.

Even Ramakrishna did not cling to the Hindu way of thinking:

Teaching 5​
Ramakrishna said that he "devoutly repeated the name of Allah, wore a cloth like the Arab Moslems, said their prayer five times daily, and felt disinclined even to see images of the Hindu gods and goddesses, much less worship them—for the Hindu way of thinking had disappeared altogether from my mind." According to Ramakrishna, after three days of practice he had a vision of a "radiant personage with grave countenance and white beard resembling the Prophet and merging with his body"​
That's how fanatical Christians and Muslims also speak. Fanatical Christians used these words of Jesus to destroy entire civilizations in South America.
No, that is not how they speak, because they do not address whether their religions are sufficient for the problems humanity faces in this new age, which is what I am addressing. As such what you said is a red herring.

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.[1] It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion. A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation. Red herring - Wikipedia
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
Jesus is clearly saying that you cannot have salvation except through him. Muslims will quote from Mohammed's last sermon to say he was the final prophet. And you have your own rat's tail that you are clinging to.
The hundred-dollar difference between us and them is that Baha’is do not believe that Baha’u’llah is the BEST prophet or the FINAL prophet. We believe all the prophets were of equal stature and that there will be more prophets in the future, throughout all of time.
If I were in your place, I would have said "I am not sure if Vyasa was a Manifestation of God".
That is because you are not a Baha’i. By the definition I have given you, he could not be a Manifestation of God becausehe did not renew the world of existence, inaugurate a new cycle of religion, reveal a new religion, or flood the east and West with light.
I always said that every religion including the Bahai faith are corrupted in practice.
You can SAY whatever you want to, but that does not make it so. You want to bring the Baha’i Faith to the level of other religions but Baha’u’llah clearly differentiated it when He said:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

As far as practicing the religion, Baha’is are struggling to live up to the teachings and follow the Laws. That is more than I can say for “some” of the older religions.
Baha’u’llah never said there will be only one religion eventually. Shoghi Effendi borrowed ideas from the Caliphate model of Islam and dreamed of one religion, one government etc. But that's his dream which will never come true.
Do you have proof that Shoghi Effendi changed the vision of Baha’u’llah?I am going to post a new thread entitled “Will there be only one religion in the future?” I will post words from an actual interview Edward Browne had with Baha’u’llah and I will also post another quote from Baha’u’llah which indicates that there will eventually be one common Faith because this has been ordained by God.

Meanwhile, the following words came straight from the mouth of Baha’u’llah during an interview with Edward Browne.

“That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers...”
“that diversity of religion should cease...”
I said: What are they doing about the problems?

You said: You will know if you study them.
I did read about some of these men you call Avatars have done/are doing, but I did not see them addressing any of the social or environmental problems we have in the world today.
I said: Good luck getting everyone to love God with the older religions. If that was going to work, it has had plenty of time to work. But it hasn’t worked.

You said: By that standards, the Bahai faith hasn't worked either. It has broken up in to 12 different groups while professing to promote unity and brotherhood.
That is a not true. There is only ONE Baha’i Faith, the one that adheres to the Covenant. Any other groups are Covenant-breakers, not Baha’is.

The Baha’i Faith promotes the Unity of Mankind, the other groups arrogantly tried to start their own religions and promote their false leaders and false teachings. Baha’u’llah brought the religion and established a Covenant. Breaking the Covenant is like going at the very root of the tree of the Baha’u’llah’s religion and destroying the tree.
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#62
I investigated Baha'u'llah independently, and Shoghi Effendi comes with that.
Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You start with independent research for truth and end up with a belief system. That is like searching for water in a desert and ending up with a mirage. Your independent research was for truth and truth must be verifiable but you end up embracing a belief system whose assertions are not verifiable as truth. Quite clearly your search for truth has failed because you have embraced something contrary to what you were looking for.

Shoghi Effendi may have been a good man and Abdul Baha comes across as a saintly soul but I do not get the feeling they were infallible and perfected beings. Even an ordinary person who creates a Will normally appoints a primary executor and a secondary executor in case the first one is unable to execute the Will due to untimely death or other unforeseen reasons. But it looks like Abdul Baha's Will and Testament did not have instructions for the Bahai in case the Guardian were to pass away in an untimely manner. I am also curious as to why the Guardian has to be from Bahaullah's family and has to be a male person. It looks like women cannot serve on the UHJ. How do you unite humanity when you leave out half of it from serving on UHJ simply because a few small body parts in women are different but essentially made from the same material that the body parts of men are made of. To serve in the cause of any religion, it is spiritual qualities alone that matter. Body parts should not.
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#63
I think there are universal truths that were revealed by God to humanity. Although we may perceive them differently, they are true because they were revealed by God. The doctrines of religions are not necessarily true because they were invented by humans, and they often distort the meanings of the original scriptures.
I can agree with that. Universal truths can be realized in our own consciousness and until that happens, we have not made those truths our own. So if I simply preach them without assimilating them in to my being, I am promoting a belief system.

That was a loaded question because “truth about God” could mean many different things to different people. To me it means the Attributes of God; e.g., Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. How do you come to know these truths (that God has these Attributes) by realization?
The attributes you have described are some of the qualities of human heart and mind (consciousness). Human beings also have opposing attributes like hatred, impatience etc. It is a matter of gaining control over the human heart and mind so that only positive attributes are manifested. This can be done without even bringing God in to picture if we understand what exactly is preventing us from manifesting the positive attributes. An atheist like Bill Gates through his philanthropic acts is manifesting love, kindness, compassion etc while believers in God like Bin Laden have killed innocent people. So a belief in God does not guarantee that human beings can manifest positive attributes. Very briefly, a human being is a package of the soul, intelligence and mind (and it's manifestation - the physical body). The mind is a battlefield of positive and negative attributes. The positive attributes come from the soul while the negative attributes are the result of sense induced actions, thoughts, feeling, emotions, likes, dislikes, attachments etc. If a human being is trained to restrain and control the latter, then the positive attributes from the soul can freely manifest in that person. Hindu sages of ancient times identified that man's identification with the body and sense induced actions, thoughts, feeling and emotions are root cause of the problem and they developed a systematic and scientific way of consciously turning the senses off so man can allow the soul to manifests it's positive attributes. You may wonder if it is possible to turn the senses off. The answer is yes you can because you do it every time you sleep but you do it unconsciously. If you know how to turn off the senses consciously, then the soul can manifests it's positive attributes. What I mean by turning off the senses is that you withdraw the life force that connects your senses to your mind so they are temporarily disabled just like in sleep, preventing the mind from becoming restless as in deep sleep. When you get to that stage, you have cleared the way for the soul to manifest positive attributes. You may have noticed that when you have a long and deep sleep you feel peaceful upon waking up. That peace is an attribute of the soul which was able to manifest to some extent because the senses were disabled for a while through unconscious activity. But conscious activity is more powerful and when you consciously turn off the senses, you allow the soul to manifest positive attributes and that is how you can know or realize the attributes you listed. The soul is made in the image of God and God's attributes you listed are also the soul's attributes. Attributes like peace and love are not induced from outside. They flow from the soul but the human nature prevents their outward flow and expression. The challenge is to overcome human nature (which Abdul Baha rightly called animal nature) that is born of the mind's identification with the human body and by extension the physical world. The fastest way to overcome human nature is to meditate and rise above the senses. Both Bahaullah and Abdul Baha laid emphasis on meditation. In fact Abdul Baha said that a man who does not meditate is worse than a beast.

God is an abstract concept. You are absolutely right that “truth about God” could mean many different things to different people. Why do you want to be satisfied with God's attributes. What if you can actually go beyond the attributes and know God as Bahaullah asserted in the short obligatory prayer?

I think I know where you got some of these ideas because I did some reading on the teachings of Ramakrishna. He said that we should pick one religion, because all are paths to God.
For thousands of years that Hinduism was in existence, the Hindu avatars and sages always stated that there are many paths to God. Ramakrishna Paramahansa did not teach anything new but his birth was essential to strengthen Hinduism.

Religions create conflicts because they have different beliefs and people cling to those beliefs and insist they are the only right ones. The only way to have peace and harmony is for there to be only One Religion
You are describing the problems with belief systems while asserting your belief that "the only way to have peace and harmony is for there to be only One Religion".

I agree that the teachings are of the most value and after I saw you posted that I decided to do some of my own research, so I know a little about his life and I have several Word documents saved which contain his most important teachings. None of his teachings contradict what Baha’u’llah wrote but I also found nothing that is not also contained in the Baha’i Faith
The teachings of none of the Hindu avatars contradict Bahaullah's teachings. Honestly, the only difference I found between Hinduism and Bahai faith is over reincaration. Bahaullah was silent on that topic but Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi dismissed it as a fallacy when all the evidence in God's creation shows that every process that God created is cyclic but it is not really a big deal. A belief in reincarnation is not essential for spiritual progress. Ramakrishna Paramahansa also taught techniques of meditation that Bahaullah probably did not teach.

I cannot compare him to Jesus since I believe that Jesus was a universal Manifestation of God, but I can believe that his disciples were like the apostles of Jesus in spiritual stature.
Just before his death, Ramakrishna Paramahansa revealed to his successor and chief disciple Swami Vivekananda that he (Ramakrishna Paramahansa ) was the same soul that previously incarnated as Krishna and Rama during higher ages in India. You don't have to believe in all this stuff. You have a certain definition of Manifestation of God that is tied to religion and you are trying to evaluate Ramakrishna Paramahansa against that definition. But Jesus never said what he is preaching is Christianity and he had only 12 disciples and he never wrote a book. Where in the teachings of Jesus does he claim that he is starting a religion called Christianity? So if we evaluate Jesus against your definition of Manifestation of God , he does not fit it.

That is true, but if that is the Will of God, why would you want to resist it? Could you ever know more than an Omniscient God?
You think it is the will of God because you are interpreting Bahaullah's words in a certain way. I have a different take on his words.

became the largest Bahá'í community in the world in 2000 after less than a century of mass teaching, with an official Bahá'í population of between 1.7 million to over 2 million, The expansion of the numbers and organization of the community has helped grow the publishing agencies of the religion until the Indian
Any true religion will take root in India because Hindus are very inclusive of all religions given than Hinduism itself is a combination of multiple spiritual paths to God each of which could be called a religion. Having said that there are millions of poor people in India that are born in to Hinduism but are not strongly grounded in the basics of the religion. They are mostly found in rural parts of India and it is easy to convert them by making claims that Bahaullah is the Tenth Avatar etc. But conversion is not organic growth. By organic growth I meant people that were born in to Bahai faith.

You are making this into a competition between Baha’i Faith and Hinduism just like Christians make it into a completion between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith.
Now you are putting words in to my mouth. You are the one who has been saying that the Bahai faith will not grow unless people of other religions relinquish their faith. You don't seem to realize how offensive your beliefs are.

With all due respect, I cannot understand why you think that religions that are revealed by God should be suited for our personality.
Islam teaches that a Muslim man can have up to four wives but a woman cannot have four husbands. And there are other teachings of the Quran that are troublesome for women. If a woman does not feel comfortable with Islam because of her liberal personality, how do you expect her to embrace Islam?

There are many different personalities within the Baha’i Faith and we do not agree on everything or practice the Baha’i Faith the same way, but we all believe in Baha’u’llah and we agree on the core principles of the Baha’i Faith and that is what binds us together.
In some religions, the core principles are absurd and rational folks will never be able to embrace them. For example the core principle in mainstream Christianity that Jesus is the only way is quite absurd.

The pipe dream is your dream that Hinduism is going to be revived. All older religions have similar dreams but God did not send Baha’u’llah so that He could revive the older religions, but rather so he could revive their spiritual teachings that people had all but forgotten.
Many avatars in Hinduism that were born after Bahaullah's death like Ramanaha Maharishi, Anandamayi Ma, Paramahansa Yogananda, Ramakrishna Paramahansa and Ammachi have strengthened Hinduism. This has been an ongoing process from time immemorial without which Hinduism would have been dead long ago. You must understand that no religion can survive for thousands of years like Hinduism has if it is not periodically revived and strengthened. Hinduism is so old that no one knows how old it is and the only reason it survived this long is because of the avatars that kept incarnating. A disciple once asked Ramakrishna Paramahansa the secret of Hinduism's survival and he replied that God will never allow this religion to die because it is based on eternal truths. I never assumed that Bahaullah incarnated to revive Hinduism. I think he was focused at least to some extent on cleaning up Islam.

Even Ramakrishna did not cling to the Hindu way of thinking:
He demonstrated the truth in all religions by practicing the teachings of various religions for a few days and realizing the spiritual truth through personal experience but he never abandoned Hinduism. I think that is a great way for an avatar to teach his followers to respect and honor all true religions. It does not mean we are to abandon our religion and convert to another religion.

The hundred-dollar difference between us and them is that Baha’is do not believe that Baha’u’llah is the BEST prophet or the FINAL prophet.
But you believe that Bahai Faith will eventually replace all faiths and be the only religion on earth. It is a belief nevertheless just like Muslims have their beliefs. Does it really matter if you blind yourself with a silver knife instead of a steel knife.

By the definition I have given you, he could not be a Manifestation of God becausehe did not renew the world of existence, inaugurate a new cycle of religion, reveal a new religion, or flood the east and West with light.
Krishna, Buddha and Jesus do not fit in to that definition either. No one can reveal a new religion. It is like saying a prophet found a new God which is meaningless. If God is not new, how can His universal principles be new which are eternal in nature. It's all meaningless jargon.

You can SAY whatever you want to, but that does not make it so. You want to bring the Baha’i Faith to the level of other religions but Baha’u’llah clearly differentiated it when He said:


“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings, p. 171-172
Certain traditions does not translate to all religions. "books" does not translate to all religious scriptures. "bygone ages" does not refer to what happened after Bahaullah's death. Stop reading what you want to read.

I did read about some of these men you call Avatars have done/are doing, but I did not see them addressing any of the social or environmental problems we have in the world today.
Read about Jaggi Vasudev's forestation and river clean up efforts in India.
 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
442
Olympia, WA, USA
#64
I can agree with that. Universal truths can be realized in our own consciousness and until that happens, we have not made those truths our own. So if I simply preach them without assimilating them in to my being, I am promoting a belief system.
That is true, but I do not know what anyone would promote a belief system that had not been realized in our own consciousness and assimilated into their being.
The attributes you have described are some of the qualities of human heart and mind (consciousness). Human beings also have opposing attributes like hatred, impatience etc. It is a matter of gaining control over the human heart and mind so that only positive attributes are manifested. This can be done without even bringing God in to picture if we understand what exactly is preventing us from manifesting the positive attributes. An atheist like Bill Gates through his philanthropic acts is manifesting love, kindness, compassion etc while believers in God like Bin Laden have killed innocent people. So a belief in God does not guarantee that human beings can manifest positive attributes.
I fully agree that one does not have to believe in God in order to manifest positive attributes. A belief in God does not guarantee that one will manifest positive attributes. There are many other factors to be considered, things that influence our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.

Abdu’l-Baha spoke of these opposing attributes which are associated with our two natures:

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of hismaterial nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60
Very briefly, a human being is a package of the soul, intelligence and mind (and it's manifestation - the physical body). The mind is a battlefield of positive and negative attributes. The positive attributes come from the soul while the negative attributes are the result of sense induced actions, thoughts, feeling, emotions, likes, dislikes, attachments etc. If a human being is trained to restrain and control the latter, then the positive attributes from the soul can freely manifest in that person. Hindu sages of ancient times identified that man's identification with the body and sense induced actions, thoughts, feeling and emotions are root cause of the problem and they developed a systematic and scientific way of consciously turning the senses off so man can allow the soul to manifests it's positive attributes.
That sounds like what Abdu’l-Baha said, that all imperfection comes from our physical nature; our spiritual nature is purely good.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
Baha’u’llah said something about the soul that mirrors what you said. If a soul is faithful to God it will mirror forth the positive attributes, but if a person allows their physical nature to dominate they become is a victim of self and passion and manifest negative attributes.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

I do not believe that the body itself is the root cause of the problem but rather it is how we relate to the body, how much importance we attribute to the body as being our real self. Not all thoughts, feeling and emotions are necessarily bad, because they derive from the soul. Whether we will be noble or abased just depends upon which direction we turn our soul. It is what we become focused upon that can lead us to good or bad thoughts, feelings and actions.
You may wonder if it is possible to turn the senses off. The answer is yes you can because you do it every time you sleep but you do it unconsciously. If you know how to turn off the senses consciously, then the soul can manifests it's positive attributes. What I mean by turning off the senses is that you withdraw the life force that connects your senses to your mind so they are temporarily disabled just like in sleep, preventing the mind from becoming restless as in deep sleep. When you get to that stage, you have cleared the way for the soul to manifest positive attributes. You may have noticed that when you have a long and deep sleep you feel peaceful upon waking up. That peace is an attribute of the soul which was able to manifest to some extent because the senses were disabled for a while through unconscious activity.
The opposite effect can also be experienced, as one can have disturbed dreams and awake very distraught, demonstrating that being unconscious is not a guarantee of peacefulness.
But conscious activity is more powerful and when you consciously turn off the senses, you allow the soul to manifest positive attributes and that is how you can know or realize the attributes you listed. The soul is made in the image of God and God's attributes you listed are also the soul's attributes. Attributes like peace and love are not induced from outside. They flow from the soul but the human nature prevents their outward flow and expression. The challenge is to overcome human nature (which Abdul Baha rightly called animal nature) that is born of the mind's identification with the human body and by extension the physical world. The fastest way to overcome human nature is to meditate and rise above the senses. Both Baha’u’llah and Abdul Baha laid emphasis on meditation. In fact Abdul Baha said that a man who does not meditate is worse than a beast.
I agree that the challenge is to overcome human nature (animal nature) that is born of the mind's identification with the human body as who we are and the physical world as the real world.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

First, I do not know what you mean by meditate, or what Abdu’l-Baha meant by meditate; and second I do not know where Abdu’l-Baha said that or exactly how he said it. However, I am reticent to label anyone as a beast, so it is very disconcerting if he said that. I know lots of people who probably do not meditate yet they are possessed of many spiritual qualities, so I do not think it is ever good to generalize.

We can meditate in order to get centered but nobody can live in a constant state of meditation or they would not be able to do what they need to do in everyday life.
God is an abstract concept. You are absolutely right that “truth about God” could mean many different things to different people. Why do you want to be satisfied with God's attributes. What if you can actually go beyond the attributes and know God as Baha’u’llah asserted in the short obligatory prayer?
I do not know what you mean by “know God” but it is probably different from what I am thinking. I do not think anyone can ever know God, except through what the Manifestations of God reflect and reveal from God, and that is what Baha’u’llah means whenever he refers to knowing God or knowledge of God.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Throughout His Writings, Baha’u’llah has stated that God is a Mystery, and that we can only know God through what has been revealed by His Manifestation.Even Baha’u’llah did not have a direct relationship with God.

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.”

This is one of my favorite passages.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166

We can have a mystical relationship with God through a Manifestation of God such as Baha’u’llah and that is what prayer and meditation is all about, but we cannot go directly to God and have a mystical relationship with God.... We need the Intermediary, the Manifestation of God, who is our only connection to God. Baha’u’llah is called the Tree beyond which there is no passing because we cannot pass beyond Baha’u’llah and go directly to God, we cannot get any closer to God than Baha’u’llah, (or whatever manifestation of God we go through).

“The “sacred Lote-Tree” is a reference to the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing” (see note 128). It is used here symbolically to designate Bahá’u’lláh.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas. p. 236
For thousands of years that Hinduism was in existence, the Hindu avatars and sages always stated that there are many paths to God. Ramakrishna Paramahansa did not teach anything new but his birth was essential to strengthen Hinduism.
I believe there are many paths to God, but I see no reason to take more than one path when one suffices.
You are describing the problems with belief systems while asserting your belief that "the only way to have peace and harmony is for there to be only One Religion".
I see no problem with having only One Religion. This is one of the essential teachings of the Baha’i Faith.
The teachings of none of the Hindu avatars contradict Baha’u’llah's teachings. Honestly, the only difference I found between Hinduism and Bahai faith is over reincaration. Baha’u’llah was silent on that topic but Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi dismissed it as a fallacy when all the evidence in God's creation shows that every process that God created is cyclic but it is not really a big deal. A belief in reincarnation is not essential for spiritual progress. Ramakrishna Paramahansa also taught techniques of meditation that Baha’u’llah probably did not teach.
Baha’u’llah was not exactly silent on the topic.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

Baha’u’llah said nothing about us coming back to this world. If that was the case I am sure he would have said it somewhere.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Just before his death, Ramakrishna Paramahansa revealed to his successor and chief disciple Swami Vivekananda that he (Ramakrishna Paramahansa ) was the same soul that previously incarnated as Krishna and Rama during higher ages in India. You don't have to believe in all this stuff.
And I won’t because I do not believe in reincarnation. The Spirit of Christ (Christ Spirit) came back in another person (Baha’u’llah) but that is not the same as the soul of Jesus coming back to this world in another body. The soul of Jesus will forever remain in the spiritual world.
You have a certain definition of Manifestation of God that is tied to religion and you are trying to evaluate Ramakrishna Paramahansa against that definition. But Jesus never said what he is preaching is Christianity and he had only 12 disciples and he never wrote a book. Where in the teachings of Jesus does he claim that he is starting a religion called Christianity? So if we evaluate Jesus against your definition of Manifestation of God , he does not fit it.
A religion results from a Manifestation of God but the Manifestation of God is not the One who establishes the religion, the followers establish the religion in His name.

The Bible says that Jesus was manifest in the flesh and that is essentially what Manifestation of God means:

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
You think it is the will of God because you are interpreting Baha’u’llah's words in a certain way. I have a different take on his words.
What do you think they mean?
Now you are putting words in to my mouth. You are the one who has been saying that the Bahai faith will not grow unless people of other religions relinquish their faith. You don't seem to realize how offensive your beliefs are.
It is just math and logic that the Baha’i Faith cannot grow unless people join, which means they would have to give up their present religion. It is not me who said that in the future there will be only one faith, it was Baha’u’llah; so you should call Him offensive, not me. I am just the messenger for the Messenger. I do not make the pronouncements.
Islam teaches that a Muslim man can have up to four wives but a woman cannot have four husbands. And there are other teachings of the Quran that are troublesome for women. If a woman does not feel comfortable with Islam because of her liberal personality, how do you expect her to embrace Islam?
Religions are not revealed to suit personalities, they are revealed to suit the times and the people to whom they were revealed. So it is no wonder a Muslim woman would not feel comfortable with that teaching in the Qur’an, society has progressed beyond that point.
In some religions, the core principles are absurd and rational folks will never be able to embrace them. For example the core principle in mainstream Christianity that Jesus is the only way is quite absurd.
Jesus was the only way (to the Father) and He even said so:

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

But that was only applicable during His Dispensation. The problem with Christians is that they do not realize that we have moved on and we are no longer living in the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, so Jesus is not the Way to everlasting life in this age. Baha’u’llah is the Way.

“No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings, p. 183
Many avatars in Hinduism that were born after Baha’u’llah's death like Ramanaha Maharishi, Anandamayi Ma, ParamahansaYogananda, Ramakrishna Paramahansa and Ammachi have strengthened Hinduism. This has been an ongoing process from time immemorial without which Hinduism would have been dead long ago. You must understand that no religion can survive for thousands of years like Hinduism has if it is not periodically revived and strengthened. Hinduism is so old that no one knows how old it is and the only reason it survived this long is because of the avatars that kept incarnating. A disciple once asked Ramakrishna Paramahansa the secret of Hinduism's survival and he replied that God will never allow this religion to die because it is based on eternal truths. I never assumed that Baha’u’llah incarnated to revive Hinduism. I think he was focused at least to some extent on cleaning up Islam.
Baha’u’llah was focused on His own revelation but He also cleared up all the misconceptions taught in the older religions.

Reviving older religions and keeping them going is diametrically opposed to the primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith which is called Progressive Revelation

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i

Of course this is embedded in the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Even Ramakrishna did not cling to the Hindu way of thinking:

He demonstrated the truth in all religions by practicing the teachings of various religions for a few days and realizing the spiritual truth through personal experience but he never abandoned Hinduism. I think that is a great way for an avatar to teach his followers to respect and honor all true religions. It does not mean we are to abandon our religion and convert to another religion.
I never suggested you abandon Hinduism and become a Baha’i.
But you believe that Bahai Faith will eventually replace all faiths and be the only religion on earth. It is a belief nevertheless just like Muslims have their beliefs. Does it really matter if you blind yourself with a silver knife instead of a steel knife.
I believe there will be only one religion in the future because Baha’u’llah wrote it, and I believe whatever he wrote is identical with the Will of God. I have no idea if that religion will be called the Baha’i Faith, because by the time this happens a new Manifestation of God might have come to earth, in which case the religion will have another name. If you do not LIKE what Baha’u’llah wrote, that is not my fault. I am just relaying the message.
I said: By the definition I have given you, he could not be a Manifestation of God becausehe did not renew the world of existence, inaugurate a new cycle of religion, reveal a new religion, or flood the east and West with light.

You said: Krishna, Buddha and Jesus do not fit in to that definition either. No one can reveal a new religion. It is like saying a prophet found a new God which is meaningless. If God is not new, how can His universal principles be new which are eternal in nature. It's all meaningless jargon.
They all did what I said above. They were responsible for the next chapter in the eternal religion of God.
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

Certain traditions does not translate to all religions. "books" does not translate to all religious scriptures. "bygone ages" does not refer to what happened after Baha’u’llah's death. Stop reading what you want to read.
He meant certain older religious traditions and their religious scriptures. He was referring to revelations from God that preceded His Revelation. No, bygone ages does not refer to what happened after His death. It refers to ages from the past.
Read about JaggiVasudev's forestation and river clean up efforts in India.
Well, obviously I do not know much about what is going on all over the world. I have no reason to deny that Hindus are doing good works. As an established religion they certainly have a lot more followers than the Baha’i Faith so they can do a whole lot more. A lot more can be accomplished with 950 million than with 7 million people.
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#65
That is true, but I do not know what anyone would promote a belief system that had not been realized in our own consciousness and assimilated into their being.
Religions are full of rigid questionable beliefs and have been one the main reasons for religious conflicts. There are a lot of Christians promoting the belief that Jesus is the only way but they have never realized it and it would be impossible to realize it because there is no truth in the assertion that Jesus is the only way. When Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.", he was not referring to the physical incarnation of Jesus but the Christ Consciousness (Son of God) that was manifest in him which is also possible for everyone because he also taught that those who receive the Holy Spirit were given the power to become Sons of God (John 1:12). If President Trump said "I am the power and authority. No bill shall become a law except through my approval" he is not referring to Trump the individual but the office of the President of the USA. Anyone that held the office before Trump or holds it after him can say the same thing. Because of this one wrong belief in Christianity, entire civilizations in South America have been wiped out.

That sounds like what Abdu’l-Baha said, that all imperfection comes from our physical nature; our spiritual nature is purely good.

Baha’u’llah said something about the soul that mirrors what you said. If a soul is faithful to God it will mirror forth the positive attributes, but if a person allows their physical nature to dominate they become is a victim of self and passion and manifest negative attributes.
Yes, you will find a lot of similarities between Hinduism and Bahai faith.

The opposite effect can also be experienced, as one can have disturbed dreams and awake very distraught, demonstrating that being unconscious is not a guarantee of peacefulness.
I said "long and deep sleep" not dream sleep. Deep sleep by definition is free of dreams.

First, I do not know what you mean by meditate, or what Abdu’l-Baha meant by meditate; and second I do not know where Abdu’l-Baha said that or exactly how he said it. However, I am reticent to label anyone as a beast, so it is very disconcerting if he said that. I know lots of people who probably do not meditate yet they are possessed of many spiritual qualities, so I do not think it is ever good to generalize.
Here is what Abdul Baha said about meditation. Three things stand out which I have highlighted. He is also saying the Kingdom of God is within you as Jesus said.

"It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.
You cannot apply the name ‘man’ to any being void of this faculty of meditation; without it he would be a mere animal, lower than the beasts.
Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit—the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation.
The spirit of man is itself informed and strengthened during meditation; through it affairs of which man knew nothing are unfolded before his view. Through it he receives Divine inspiration, through it he receives heavenly food.
Meditation is the key for opening the doors of mysteries. In that state man abstracts himself: in that state man withdraws himself from all outside objects; in that subjective mood he is immersed in the ocean of spiritual life and can unfold the secrets of things-in-themselves. To illustrate this, think of man as endowed with two kinds of sight; when the power of insight is being used the outward power of vision does not see.
This faculty of meditation frees man from the animal nature, discerns the reality of things, puts man in touch with God.
This faculty brings forth from the invisible plane the sciences and arts. Through the meditative faculty inventions are made possible, colossal undertakings are carried out; through it governments can run smoothly. Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 173-176

I do not know what you mean by “know God” but it is probably different from what I am thinking. I do not think anyone can ever know God, except through what the Manifestations of God reflect and reveal from God, and that is what Baha’u’llah means whenever he refers to knowing God or knowledge of God.
God is One. God is not many. So how did God create many things out of One. If the physical cosmos did not come out of God, from where did it come and who made the thing from which the cosmos came out of. Try to find answers to these questions in the Bahai faith and let me know what you find. Hinduism teaches that for God "to become many", God created the screen of human mind upon which movie of life is projected and in this movie the One appears as many just as in a movie theater the one beam of light from the projector appears as many images on the screen. So if you meditate to go beyond the mind, the movie of life of life comes to a stop and you realize the reality that the One God appears as many (everything) and that you have been under an illusion all along when the mind was active. That's when you know God. And this is the reason why Bahaullah also said the world is an illusion (which you quoted earlier) just like the Hindu scriptures state. In fact in Mathnavi-i-Mubarak, he clearly states that it is a mystery of spirit that there nothing anywhere but God which is the same as saying that God is everywhere. Abdul Baha said meditation puts man in touch with God which is nothing but knowing God.

I see no problem with having only One Religion. This is one of the essential teachings of the Baha’i Faith.
If One Religion is defined as transformation of human nature in to divine nature, I can agree and there will be many way to accomplish it. But I cannot agree that there will be ever one religion if religion refers to what is commonly understood as Islam, Christianity etc.

Baha’u’llah was not exactly silent on the topic. ......Baha’u’llah said nothing about us coming back to this world.
He did not directly comment on reincarnation but some of what he said seems to hint at reincarnation. Check this out:

Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths. - Bahaullah

He is saying that if the soul fails in being loyal to God, it will become a victim to self and passion which is a reference to incarnation in a human body.

And I won’t because I do not believe in reincarnation.
That's your choice. But have you done independent research? Have you observed that every process in God's creation is cyclic. You have smaller cycles inside bigger cycles. The fundamental unit of human life is the human cell. Did you know that human cells take birth and die in the body in a cyclic way proving that birth and death are cyclic? Can you show one process that God created which is not cyclic.

A religion results from a Manifestation of God but the Manifestation of God is not the One who establishes the religion, the followers establish the religion in His name.

The Bible says that Jesus was manifest in the flesh and that is essentially what Manifestation of God means:


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
God was manifest in flesh - that's the definition of an avatar which literally means descent of God in to a human body. Now you are making up all kinds of theories regarding the followers of Manifestation of God. Earlier you said a Manifestation of God has to start a religion now you say it is his followers who actually do that. You cannot bind God and his avatars to rules. You do not get to set the rules. There are many avatars who chose to remain in obscurity and silently help mankind in ways that are mysterious to the common man. It does not lower their spiritual stature in anyway. The avatars don't have to prove anything to you. They are humble beings giving all credit to God and see themselves as God's instruments carrying out His will for mankind. You want to pigeon hole the avatars with your limited understanding. That's like trying to fit an ocean in to a tea cup.

Religions are not revealed to suit personalities, they are revealed to suit the times and the people to whom they were revealed. So it is no wonder a Muslim woman would not feel comfortable with that teaching in the Qur’an, society has progressed beyond that point.
So she cannot be expected to embrace Islam. Wasn't that the point I was making.

Reviving older religions and keeping them going is diametrically opposed to the primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith which is called Progressive Revelation
No, it does not because there can be more than one progressive revelation in more than one part of the world. You want to center it around the Bahai faith because of your identification with the Bahai faith but that is a delusive act of ego, not of the soul.

He meant certain older religious traditions and their religious scriptures. He was referring to revelations from God that preceded His Revelation. No, bygone ages does not refer to what happened after His death. It refers to ages from the past.
And I listed several avatars that were born after Bahaullah's death. So you cannot generalize and apply his words universally.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2013
570
Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
#66
Greetings, all! I have not posted in several days, and I see the debate keeps going. I pray that it strengthens the spirit of those who participate, and does not cause anyone to be disheartened.

A few thoughts come to mind after reading the last few pages of posts.

About belief/realization/reality/truth: to me is seems impossible logically and considering that there is one Universal Creator that each person can have their own reality or truth. The reality of the Universe is not dependent on what each person perceives it to be, so in this sense there are right and wrong, correct and incorrect facts. However, we all have our personal limitations that affect how we see the truth. Some of the limitations are due to language, which is never adequate to express spiritual realities. Language is a product of the human mind so that shows the limitation of the mind also. Not just certain persons minds, all human minds. Therefore, when we state something it is always somewhat incorrect or misleading. That is an unavoidable result of if coming from a human mind and mouth. This underscores the need to be humble, and always consider that something we say with certainty is in actual fact somewhat uncertain, and that if you hear someone else say something and think that is either correct of incorrect, we are likely misunderstanding at least some aspect of it, because no description is a perfect fit to reality.

About religious truth: Abdu’l-Baha said an amazing thing. He said “religious truth is relative, not absolute”, and this of course applies to Baha’i teachings as much as other religions. As I understand it, this goes beyond the limitations of language and human perception, although those are a factor. It also includes the effect of the progress and evolution of humankind on this planet. In other words, what is stated and understood as an absolute truth in a particular religion and completely contradicted by a teaching in another religion may be because humankind was at a stage where a certain understanding was necessary and appropriate, but those conditions change, and at a future time the old understanding is no longer appropriate. For that matter, prior to the modern age when the world is unified by travel and communication, each geographic location may have had religious truths that were appropriate to the needs of the people there.

What about something like reincarnation? You might say it is either true or not true that souls reincarnate. We know that Hinduism and Buddhism teach reincarnation, and the Baha’i Faith teaches that souls do not reincarnate. New souls are created and go through physical existence once, then purely spiritual existence after that. According to Baha’i teachings, the return of the prophets is really the coming of a new prophet who has the same station as the previous ones, and that the prophets or Manifestations should all be considered as one reality, so to say that one has returned or new one has come is really saying the same thing.

As far as people reincarnating, is it possible that this actually happens or happened in the past? If God is all-powerful, He could make anything happen, right? So if God wanted someone to reincarnate, it could happen. That statement seems to contradict Baha’i teachings, but not the part about God being all-powerful. Could it be that the Hindu teaching about reincarnation is really symbolic of a soul progressing into a new spiritual existence, which could either be a good or bad experience based on how that person behaved in this life? What about people who remember past lives, could it be that the spirit of someone past is communicating to them? Could it be genetic memory, Iike some have speculated in science fiction? Or could it be that they actually reincarnated, and the Baha'i teaching on the subject is “relative, not absolute”?

While you are thinking about all those possibilities, consider this. As I understand, in Hinduism and especially Buddhism, although the teaching is that people reincarnate, the goal for all people is not to reincarnate, to stop the cycle of birth and death, and continue purely spiritual existence. So, in the end, the goal is the same, a spiritual existence in all the worlds fo God, and our responsibility in the physical world is the same, that we should learn not to be attached to it, we should serve others and help build a physical and spiritual existence that is worthy of humanity.
 
Jul 2017
442
Olympia, WA, USA
#67
Religions are full of rigid questionable beliefs and have been one the main reasons for religious conflicts. There are a lot of Christians promoting the belief that Jesus is the only way but they have never realized it and it would be impossible to realize it because there is no truth in the assertion that Jesus is the only way. When Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.", he was not referring to the physical incarnation of Jesus but the Christ Consciousness (Son of God) that was manifest in him which is also possible for everyone because he also taught that those who receive the Holy Spirit were given the power to become Sons of God (John 1:12). If President Trump said "I am the power and authority. No bill shall become a law except through my approval" he is not referring to Trump the individual but the office of the President of the USA. Anyone that held the office before Trump or holds it after him can say the same thing. Because of this one wrong belief in Christianity, entire civilizations in South America have been wiped out.
That was a different perspective than I had but I think it is a valid one. Jesus was the best way to the Father during His Dispensation but He was not the Only Way, because Jews and Buddhists and Hindus and other religious people also got to the Father in other ways. Moreover, it was never the man Jesus who was the Way, it was the Holy Spirit that he brought, the Christ Consciousness. What Christians did was to get attached to the Person of Jesus and the cross sacrifice, the resurrection and the ascension, and then they lost sight of what He stood for and His teachings.
I said "long and deep sleep" not dream sleep. Deep sleep by definition is free of dreams.
Are you saying that when people sleep a long time they do not have dreams, or are you referring to a certain quality of sleep called deep sleep?
Here is what Abdul Baha said about meditation. Three things stand out which I have highlighted. He is also saying the Kingdom of God is within you as Jesus said.

"It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.
You cannot apply the name ‘man’ to any being void of this faculty of meditation; without it he would be a mere animal, lower than the beasts.
Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit—the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation.
The spirit of man is itself informed and strengthened during meditation; through it affairs of which man knew nothing are unfolded before his view. Through it he receives Divine inspiration, through it he receives heavenly food.
Meditation is the key for opening the doors of mysteries. In that state man abstracts himself: in that state man withdraws himself from all outside objects; in that subjective mood he is immersed in the ocean of spiritual life and can unfold the secrets of things-in-themselves. To illustrate this, think of man as endowed with two kinds of sight; when the power of insight is being used the outward power of vision does not see.
This faculty of meditation frees man from the animal nature, discerns the reality of things, puts man in touch with God.
This faculty brings forth from the invisible plane the sciences and arts. Through the meditative faculty inventions are made possible, colossal undertakings are carried out; through it governments can run smoothly. Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 173-176
Okay thanks for the quote. I think I understand what Abdu’l-Baha is referring to now. It is the ability to reflect and meditate upon the mysteries of spiritual life and derive insight therefrom, and this ability is what separates humans from the other animals.

“Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God” can mean many different things and it will mean different things to different people, depending upon their perspective. To me it means it puts us in touch with the Kingdom of God, makes us aware of its existence.
God is One. God is not many. So how did God create many things out of One. If the physical cosmos did not come out of God, from where did it come and who made the thing from which the cosmos came out of. Try to find answers to these questions in the Bahai faith and let me know what you find.
Baha’u’llah wrote that Creation has always existed:

“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.
As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 150-151
Hinduism teaches that for God "to become many", God created the screen of human mind upon which movie of life is projected and in this movie the One appears as many just as in a movie theater the one beam of light from the projector appears as many images on the screen.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by that. Perhaps that is what Baha’u’llah was saying in this passage:

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light. Methinks, but for the potency of that revelation, no being could ever exist. How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the Heavenly Books and the Holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.” Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not, then, behold the signs of God?” And yet again He revealeth: “And be ye not like those who forget God, and whom He hath therefore caused to forget their own selves.” In this connection, He Who is the eternal King—may the souls of all that dwell within the mystic Tabernacle be a sacrifice unto Him—hath spoken: “He hath known God who hath known himself.”
…From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things visible and invisible. Thus hath He revealed: “Hath aught else save Thee a power of revelation which is not possessed by Thee, that it could have manifested Thee? Blind is the eye which doth not perceive Thee.” Likewise hath the eternal King spoken: “No thing have I perceived, except that I perceived God within it, God before it, or God after it.” Also in the tradition of Kumayl it is written: “Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the morn of eternity, and lo, its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men.” Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory.And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of Their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of Their grace.”
If One Religion is defined as transformation of human nature in to divine nature, I can agree and there will be many way to accomplish it. But I cannot agree that there will be ever one religion if religion refers to what is commonly understood as Islam, Christianity etc.
It will be whatever God has ordained but we cannot know what that will be until it actually unfolds. Personally, I like having many different religions, if people could have them and still live in harmony and unity, but such has never been the case. Moreover, on a logical basis, I do not think there is a need for more than one religion. The reason there are so many is because people are emotionally attached to the religion they call their own, or they have certain ideas that religion teaches, or certain beliefs that they are attached to and they believe are more true than the beliefs of other religions. These are not good reasons to have many religions because it is either emotionally-based or ego-based.
He did not directly comment on reincarnation but some of what he said seems to hint at reincarnation. Check this out:
Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, erily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths. - Baha’u’llah

He is saying that if the soul fails in being loyal to God, it will become a victim to self and passion which is a reference to incarnation in a human body.
What sink in their depths means to me is that their soul will be without eternal life, in the sense that Abdu’l-Baha described eternal life:

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” (John 3:5)......
The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world—that is to say, the torments of the other world—consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 223-225

“They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings, pp. 284-285

That is the same as saying: “If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

I think their abode in the fire of hell correlates to what Abdul-Baha said: “He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.”
That's your choice. But have you done independent research? Have you observed that every process in God's creation is cyclic. You have smaller cycles inside bigger cycles. The fundamental unit of human life is the human cell. Did you know that human cells take birth and die in the body in a cyclic way proving that birth and death are cyclic? Can you show one process that God created which is not cyclic.
I do not understand how that relates to reincarnation. Processes in the physical world might be cyclic but that cannot be carried over to the spiritual world, which is entirely different than THIS world. Moreover, it makes no sense that any soul, once in the spiritual world, would ever come back to this physical world, because it would serve no purpose, since progress is infinite in the spiritual world.
God was manifest in flesh - that's the definition of an avatar which literally means descent of God in to a human body.
God does not descend into a human body. That is not what manifest means, that is what incarnate means. God manifested His Attributes in the flesh; God did not incarnate His Essence. The Essence of God is Spirit and it cannot become flesh.
Now you are making up all kinds of theories regarding the followers of Manifestation of God. Earlier you said a Manifestation of God has to start a religion now you say it is his followers who actually do that. You cannot bind God and his avatars to rules. You do not get to set the rules. There are many avatars who chose to remain in obscurity and silently help mankind in ways that are mysterious to the common man. It does not lower their spiritual stature in anyway. The avatars don't have to prove anything to you. They are humble beings giving all credit to God and see themselves as God's instruments carrying out His will for mankind. You want to pigeon hole the avatars with your limited understanding. That's like trying to fit an ocean in to a tea cup.
I do not know what you mean by avatars. I guess you mean spiritual men or women, and I have no problem with the fact that these individuals exist. I am not trying to pigeon hole them or lower their stature. However, I do not believe that they are God's instruments carrying out His will for mankind, because I believe that only Manifestations of God can be God’s instruments, since God chose them to reveal Himself to. I see no reason what the world need more than one universal Manifestation in every age. All that would accomplish would be to create confusion.
No, it does not because there can be more than one progressive revelation in more than one part of the world. You want to center it around the Bahai faith because of your identification with the Bahai faith but that is a delusive act of ego, not of the soul.
I do not want anything so this is not about my ego. I just try to accurately represent what Baha’u’llah revealed. If any other Baha’is want to chime in, they are welcome to do so.

You cannot change the primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i faith as revealed by Baha’u’llah to suit your purposes. According to the Bahai Faith (not me), there is only one Revelation from God in every age and it is associated with one universal Manifestation of God, who Baha’u’llah refers to as the Divine Physician.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy? In like manner, every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world with the resplendent radiance of the Day Star of Divine knowledge, they have invariably summoned its peoples to embrace the light of God through such means as best befitted the exigencies of the age in which they appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
And I listed several avatars that were born after Baha’u’llah's death. So you cannot generalize and apply his words universally.
What do you mean by avatar?

An avatar (Sanskrit: अवतार, IAST: avatāra), a concept in Hinduism that means "descent", refers to the material appearance or incarnation of a deity on earth.[1][2] The relative verb to "alight, to make one's appearance" is sometimes used to refer to any guru or revered human being.[3][4]

If you are referring to a guru or a revered human being, I have no problem with that but if you are referring to the incarnation of the deity on earth, I cannot believe that is possible, given Baha’u’llah wrote that God cannot ever incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man.

I was doing some research and I found this website. Does this accurately represent what you believe about avatars?

A Hindu avatar is the earthly incarnation of a god as man. Hindus believe a god can appear on earth as a person, or in parts in many people. This combines pantheism (belief that god is all) and polytheism (belief in many gods).​
Hindus believe that an avatar can appear to the worshiper in any form, including as Mohammed, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, or some other personal god. Some Hindus believe Jesus is an avatar, and more specifically the reincarnation of Krishna.​
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#68
That was a different perspective than I had but I think it is a valid one. Jesus was the best way to the Father during His Dispensation but He was not the Only Way, because Jews and Buddhists and Hindus and other religious people also got to the Father in other ways. Moreover, it was never the man Jesus who was the Way, it was the Holy Spirit that he brought, the Christ Consciousness. What Christians did was to get attached to the Person of Jesus and the cross sacrifice, the resurrection and the ascension, and then they lost sight of what He stood for and His teachings.
I agree.

Are you saying that when people sleep a long time they do not have dreams, or are you referring to a certain quality of sleep called deep sleep?
I am referring to a certain quality of sleep by deep sleep. By deep sleep I mean a long, restful and dreamless sleep. Such a sleep in the normal person - someone not chronically worried or depressed - will produce some experience of peace upon waking up. That is the soul manifesting peace which becomes possible because the mind during the deep sleep was not excited by the senses and was free of thoughts and feelings. During the sleep, most of the life force which connects the mind and the physical senses is withdrawn in to the spine and brain regions and as a result the senses are temporarily disabled. So there is no sensory input feeding the mind. The same process can be accomplished through a conscious act of will but most people do not know how. For ages, the Hindu yogis and sages have practiced this science called Raja Yoga.

Okay thanks for the quote. I think I understand what Abdu’l-Baha is referring to now. It is the ability to reflect and meditate upon the mysteries of spiritual life and derive insight therefrom, and this ability is what separates humans from the other animals.
But it looks like Bahaullah never taught any specific meditation techniques like Hindu avatars and Gurus have taught. Perhaps, people in Iran and middle east were not ready for them. Abdul Baha says "Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit—the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation. The spirit of man is itself informed and strengthened during meditation; through it affairs of which man knew nothing are unfolded before his view. Through it he receives Divine inspiration, through it he receives heavenly food."

I think it could be long discussion as to what the highlighted phrases mean. The reference to "heavenly food" reminds me of Jesus's words "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)". During the process of mediation when life force is withdrawn in to the brain, it can be recharged by drawing the the cosmic energy (heavenly food) present in the ether through the medulla oblongata (mouth of God). Just like the mouth feeds the body with food, the medulla oblongata feeds the body with cosmic energy and it is metaphorically called the mouth of God. It looks like Abdul Baha is saying the same things about Holy Spirit that Jesus also spoke of with which you seemed to have a lot of trouble.

“Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God
” can mean many different things and it will mean different things to different people, depending upon their perspective. To me it means it puts us in touch with the Kingdom of God, makes us aware of its existence.
Abdul Baha is saying the Kingdom of God is found through mediation. In other words it is a spiritual one inside of us; not a physical one we are supposed to build on earth as you have been saying.

Baha’u’llah wrote that Creation has always existed:
Hindu scriptures also say that but they assert it happens in a cyclic way with creation and destruction being part of a cycle. This can get a bit confusing if I do not clarify. Actually it would be more appropriate to say God manifested the cosmos, instead of saying God created the cosmos because it is really a projection of God's energy, thoughts and will. When Hindu scriptures say that creation always existed, they do not necessarily mean in a physical form. Creation can exist in God's consciousness in the form of thoughts or a mental image. When God's will power is applied to these thoughts, they are projected in the form of a light which then condenses in to matter. But all this happens within what we call as God because there is nothing that exists besides God. If there is something other than God that exists, what is it? If the physical cosmos is not part of God, then we have to ask as to how created the cosmos and where did the matter to create the cosmos came from and who created that matter. Try to find logical answers to these questions. In the meantime I will point you to these comments of Carl Sagan, American astronomer, cosmologist, astrophysicist, astrobiologist and author

"The Hindu dharma is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only dharma in which time scales correspond to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang." —Carl Sagan



I am not sure exactly what you mean by that. Perhaps that is what Baha’u’llah was saying in this passage:
I will try to explain with an analogy but keep in mind this is not going to be perfect because spiritual truths cannot be expressed fully or correctly through words. Let's take a Spider and assume it represents God before God manifested time and space. For this Spider to create the physical cosmos, it would need space but there is no space or time at this point. So how does the Spider create the physical cosmos? Just ignore the fact that the Spider itself occupies some space but assume there is no other space.

It will be whatever God has ordained but we cannot know what that will be until it actually unfolds. Personally, I like having many different religions, if people could have them and still live in harmony and unity, but such has never been the case. Moreover, on a logical basis, I do not think there is a need for more than one religion.
People have different personalities and so they take differerent routes to God. One person may approach God through service to mankind like Mother Teresa did while another one like the Dalai Lama might approach God through the path of meditation. A Muslim might take the path of absolute surrender to God's will. A Sufi might take the path of love. A Hindu might combine all the above. Everyone can find their own way back to God if they are able to. So there can be as many religions as the number of people. That's the Hindu approach which is why Hinduism gave birth to several other religions like Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and several other spiritual paths to God which have been grouped under the umbrella term of Hinduism. In contrast, middle eastern religions, especially Islam tend to be exclusive and destroy other religions for their own growth. The growth of Islam has always come at the expense of other religions. It is quite ironical that given how Islam stifled the growth of Bahai faith in Iran, you still display the longing for just one religion to prevail. How is your attitude different from that of a Muslim who wants Islam to be the only religion practiced by mankind. Your means may be peaceful but attitude is no different.

What sink in their depths means to me is that their soul will be without eternal life
A reference to self and passion hints at incarnation in a physical body.

I do not understand how that relates to reincarnation. Processes in the physical world might be cyclic but that cannot be carried over to the spiritual world, which is entirely different than THIS world.
Man is not purely a spiritual being. Man has three aspects to his existence - physical, mental and spiritual. It is not just the physical processes that are cyclic. Even the mental processes are cyclic. Have you never observed your mind going back to certain thoughts and constantly play them on your consciousness even when you tried to focus on something else. Have you not heard of people who cannot help compulsive behavior like eating too much or chain smokers or serial killers? All these cyclic actions begin in the mind with certain cyclic thoughts. When a person dies, only the body dies. The mind does not. The soul is still trapped in the mind and because the mind craves for earthly experiences, the soul reincarnates to satisfy the mind's desires with all of the good and bad tendencies of past lives which are stored in the mind. That is why you can see different personalities even in small children or babies because those personalities come from past lives. And the karma from past lives explains why some people are born healthy while others are born with diseases, why some are born in to rich families while other are born in to poor families, why some are born as men while others as women, why some are prone to depression and suicide while others are joyful and have a passion for life. There is no law which states that the processes in the sipritual world are not cyclic. Some spiritually advanced souls may never incarnate on earth again and they may continue to evolve in to higher spiritual planes but souls that have karma to work out on earth will have to come back to earth. If someone is addicted to sex and alcohol, how do you think he can work out those desires and get rid of them without a physical body?


God does not descend into a human body. That is not what manifest means, that is what incarnate means. God manifested His Attributes in the flesh; God did not incarnate His Essence. The Essence of God is Spirit and it cannot become flesh
The confusion is because we are comparing notes from two different religions and cultures. If you agree that God is Omnipotent then by definition God can do anything. But then if you insist God cannot descend into a human body or Spirit cannot become flesh you are imposing a limit on God's power. Since when have you become so powerful that you can limit God's powers. Quite silly if you think about it. You are trying to fit God's functioning in to your limited understanding and that's why you have problem grasping spiritual truths from another religion.


However, I do not believe that they are God's instruments carrying out His will for mankind, because I believe that only Manifestations of God can be God’s instruments, since God chose them to reveal Himself to.
Your beliefs are just beliefs - they are not supported by personal experience with Hindu avatars who are one with God and display Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence like God does. Have you ever meditated on a Hindu avatar and personally experienced the result. If not you will never know for sure what the truth is. You can only tout your belief system.

I see no reason what the world need more than one universal Manifestation in every age. All that would accomplish would be to create confusion.
All the confusion is in your own mind. Bahaullah did not teach meditation techniques. He did not offer commentary on the esoteric gospels. These are just a couple of examples. Other universal Manifestations of God have done that.

You cannot change the primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i faith as revealed by Baha’u’llah to suit your purpose
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You have a very narrow understanding of Bahaullah's words. Even when he says "Prophets" your change it to "Prophet" to suit your spiritual ego. Check out his words carefully.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy? In like manner, every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world with the resplendent radiance of the Day Star of Divine knowledge, they have invariably summoned its peoples to embrace the light of God through such means as best befitted the exigencies of the age in which they appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

Bahaullah is not suggesting that only a single prophet would appears in every age. He is using the plural form to suggest that more than one prophet can appear in an age. In any case, why you want to limit God's power again?
 
Jul 2017
442
Olympia, WA, USA
#69
I am referring to a certain quality of sleep by deep sleep. By deep sleep I mean a long, restful and dreamless sleep. Such a sleep in the normal person - someone not chronically worried or depressed - will produce some experience of peace upon waking up. That is the soul manifesting peace which becomes possible because the mind during the deep sleep was not excited by the senses and was free of thoughts and feelings. During the sleep, most of the life force which connects the mind and the physical senses is withdrawn in to the spine and brain regions and as a result the senses are temporarily disabled. So there is no sensory input feeding the mind. The same process can be accomplished through a conscious act of will but most people do not know how. For ages, the Hindu yogis and sages have practiced this science called Raja Yoga.
Okay, thanks for explaining that.
I thought that all people dream when they sleep but I briefly looked that up on the internet and some articles say some people do not dream. Some people do not recall their dreams but that does not mean they do not dream, although there are ways to determine if people are dreaming or not during sleep.

I do not think I have the kind of sleep you describe, most likely because I am under a lot of stress and also because I do not usually sleep very long, except on weekends. I do not normally awake feeing refreshed even when I sleep longer.
But it looks like Baha’u’llah never taught any specific meditation techniques like Hindu avatars and Gurus have taught. Perhaps, people in Iran and middle east were not ready for them. Abdul Baha says "Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit—the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation. The spirit of man is itself informed and strengthened during meditation; through it affairs of which man knew nothing are unfolded before his view. Through it he receives Divine inspiration, through it he receives heavenly food."
Baha’u’llah did not teach meditation techniques because that was not part of His Mission from God. His mission was to receive a Revelation from God and bring His message to the people of His time, including the religious leaders and heads of government, as well as to write scriptures that would be passed on to posterity.
I think it could be long discussion as to what the highlighted phrases mean. The reference to "heavenly food" reminds me of Jesus's words "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)".
I agree with that interpretation. Certainly bread, which represents the physical existence, is not what is most important. We have to contend with the material world but most people live for it as if that is all there is or will ever be. That they worship it is obvious by their verbiage and lifestyles. That is none of my business though, I was just pointing out what I observe in everyday life.
It looks like Abdul Baha is saying the same things about Holy Spirit that Jesus also spoke of with which you seemed to have a lot of trouble.
I do not have any trouble with what Jesus said or what Abdu’l-Baha said about meditation. The latter is simply something I am not presently engaged in.
Abdul Baha is saying the Kingdom of God is found through mediation. In other words it is a spiritual one inside of us; not a physical one we are supposed to build on earth as you have been saying.
Obviously Abdu’l-Baha was talking about the spiritual and not the physical because attaining to eternal life is a spiritual process, not a physical one. However, a spiritual kingdom does not negate the physical kingdom of God that we have been enjoined to build on earth, according to Baha’u’llah.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.
Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
Hindu scriptures also say that but they assert it happens in a cyclic way with creation and destruction being part of a cycle. This can get a bit confusing if I do not clarify. Actually it would be more appropriate to say God manifested the cosmos, instead of saying God created the cosmos because it is really a projection of God's energy, thoughts and will. When Hindu scriptures say that creation always existed, they do not necessarily mean in a physical form. Creation can exist in God's consciousness in the form of thoughts or a mental image. When God's will power is applied to these thoughts, they are projected in the form of a light which then condenses in to matter. But all this happens within what we call as God because there is nothing that exists besides God. If there is something other than God that exists, what is it? If the physical cosmos is not part of God, then we have to ask as to how created the cosmos and where did the matter to create the cosmos came from and who created that matter. Try to find logical answers to these questions.
That is interesting. I usually do not get into talking about theories of Creation because that is not only beyond my scope of understanding; I do not think any of that can be proven. If what religious scriptures say could be proven as factual they would be accepted in mainstream science. Besides that, I do not think how we came to be created really matters because it is in the past. What is important is the present and the future. We only have the present, but we can look towards the future and works towards making it better for future generations.

I absolutely do not believe that the physical cosmos is part of God; that is pantheism. Pantheism is a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God. That cannot be reconciled to Baha’i beliefs.

I also do not believe that God is within us. That cannot be reconciled with what Baha’u’llah wrote, that God is separate from all, and exists independently of all of His Creation. The image of God is reflected in His Creation, but God is not in His Creation.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 166
People have different personalities and so they take differrent routes to God. One person may approach God through service to mankind like Mother Teresa did while another one like the Dalai Lama might approach God through the path of meditation. A Muslim might take the path of absolute surrender to God's will. A Sufi might take the path of love. A Hindu might combine all the above.
A Baha’i might also combine all of the above, because all those paths are found within the Baha’i Faith. However, any particular Baha’i might focus more on one path than another, depending upon what suits their personality. I do not think it is good to try to fit a square peg into a round hole, because it will never fit.

I do not think we need separate religions to accommodate different paths if all these paths can be found within one religion.
Everyone can find their own way back to God if they are able to. So there can be as many religions as the number of people. That's the Hindu approach which is why Hinduism gave birth to several other religions like Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and several other spiritual paths to God which have been grouped under the umbrella term of Hinduism.
A Hindu poster I converse with on occasion on another forum said the same thing today, that there can be as many religions as the number of people. This of course is based upon the belief that everyone is unique. But as he said whether there are really billions of religion depends upon how one defines religion. If the “path to God” is a religion then he has a valid point, but if we are talking about a revelation from God from which the followers established a religion, then there are not that many.
In contrast, middle eastern religions, especially Islam tend to be exclusive and destroy other religions for their own growth. The growth of Islam has always come at the expense of other religions. It is quite ironical that given how Islam stifled the growth of Bahai faith in Iran, you still display the longing for just one religion to prevail. How is your attitude different from that of a Muslim who wants Islam to be the only religion practiced by mankind. Your means may be peaceful but attitude is no different.
As I said before “I” do not want anything. I like the variety of religions in the world because it makes life interesting. “I” have no need for anyone to believe what I do. I just believe what Baha’u’llah wrote about the future, and that there would be one common faith. Humanity is not ready for that yet; it is a long way off, so I see not point getting all worked up over it.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

I cannot be a Baha’i and only accept part of what Baha’u’lalh wrote; I either accept all of it or none of it.
Man is not purely a spiritual being. Man has three aspects to his existence - physical, mental and spiritual.
I would not separate these out that way. I would say that we have the spiritual and the physical and the mental is part of the spiritual, since it is our consciousness as opposed to physical sensations. The soul works through the brain and the changes are manifested in the mind and body.

The soul animates the human body while we are alive on earth. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself, so the soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, our true reality.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind, goes to the spiritual world where the soul takes on a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual realm.
When a person dies, only the body dies. The mind does not. The soul is still trapped in the mind and because the mind craves for earthly experiences, the soul reincarnates to satisfy the mind's desires with all of the good and bad tendencies of past lives which are stored in the mind. That is why you can see different personalities even in small children or babies because those personalities come from past lives. And the karma from past lives explains why some people are born healthy while others are born with diseases, why some are born in to rich families while other are born in to poor families, why some are born as men while others as women, why some are prone to depression and suicide while others are joyful and have a passion for life. There is no law which states that the processes in the spiritual world are not cyclic. Some spiritually advanced souls may never incarnate on earth again and they may continue to evolve in to higher spiritual planes but souls that have karma to work out on earth will have to come back to earth. If someone is addicted to sex and alcohol, how do you think he can work out those desires and get rid of them without a physical body?
Here is what I believe happens. When a person dies, the body dies and the mind dies because the mind is part of the brain and the brain is part of the body. The soul is the only part of us that continues to exist in the spiritual world. The soul carries with it what was in the mind while we were alive on earth, because our conscious thought is the sum total of our personality, as I said above.

So essentially what you are saying about karma is that God punishes people for the way they lived and sends them back to this physical life, born with diseases or into poor families, born with the propensity to depression or suicide. And THIS is the God you believe is Loving?

You said: “The mind does not. The soul is still trapped in the mind and because the mind craves for earthly experiences, the soul reincarnates to satisfy the mind's desires with all of the good and bad tendencies of past lives which are stored in the mind.”

So here is what I believe. If people die and they are still attached to the physical pleasures and material things of this world, if that is what was on their mind thus affecting their soul in this world, they will take that state of mind (but not the mind, because the mind dies when the body dies) with them to the spiritual world and their soul will be in a state of hell and separation from God. But God does not do this to them, they did it to themselves by making the choices they made. There are no second chances because Jesus and Baha’u’llah both gave them plenty of warning about attachment to the world and physical desires, so if they did not heed that warning, that’s the breaks. They cannot blame God for that because we all have free will to choose between our higher spiritual nature and our lower material nature. Everyone can find a Bible in the bookstore.

You said: “If someone is addicted to sex and alcohol, how do you think he can work out those desires and get rid of them without a physical body?”

What reason do you have to think that IF they came back to earth they would do anything differently? They had an entire lifetime. I do not feel one bit sorry for them because we reap what we have sown. Fortunately for such souls, I believe that God is a whole lot more merciful and compassionate than I am. I think that people can get out of that hellish state IF they want to, by the mercy of God and the prayers of others; the problem ensues when they do not want to get out of it because they prefer to remain attached. For them there is no hope.

Some of my ideas about the afterlife I get from sources outside of the Baha’i Writings so some Baha’is might not agree with me, but taken together with what is in the Baha’i Writings and the New Testament, I think they are fairly representative of what might await people on the other side:
The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
Heaven and Hell

I have not read the book Heaven and Hell in its entirety, but from what I read, the absolute worst is to be selfish. We can do the same good deeds but if our motives were selfish it won’t help us at all. Of course I already knew about how bad selfishness from what Baha’u’llah wrote, but the way it is described in that book really drove the point home.

Here is a depiction of the afterlife written by a Baha’i: Death and Dying in the Bahá'í Faith
The confusion is because we are comparing notes from two different religions and cultures. If you agree that God is Omnipotent then by definition God can do anything. But then if you insist God cannot descend into a human body or Spirit cannot become flesh you are imposing a limit on God's power. Since when have you become so powerful that you can limit God's powers. Quite silly if you think about it. You are trying to fit God's functioning in to your limited understanding and that's why you have problem grasping spiritual truths from another religion.
I did not say that God cannot descend into the human body and become flesh; Baha’u’llah said that.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Again, what I believe is not coming from me; it is coming from what Baha’u’llah wrote. God does not descend into the human body, period, end of story. I hear from atheists day in day out that God is omnipotent so God can do anything, and this is said in reference to speaking to them directly instead of through a Messenger. What they are really saying is that God can do anything so God should do what “I think” God should do, as if they could ever know more than an All-Knowing God. This is really very childish and arrogant. It is also illogical because nobody can know as much, let alone more than an All-Knowing God.

Maybe you do not understand that just because God can do anything that does not mean God will do everything God can do. Being omnipotent means that God only does what God chooses to do, not what humans want God to do. That is clearly elucidated in these three excerpts from longer passages:

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73
“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284
“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

I do not have to grasp spiritual truths from Hinduism because I am not a Hindu. I am a Baha’i and obviously we have different teachings which are contradictory and irreconcilable.
Your beliefs are just beliefs - they are not supported by personal experience with Hindu avatars who are one with God and display Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence like God does. Have you ever meditated on a Hindu avatar and personally experienced the result. If not you will never know for sure what the truth is. You can only tout your belief system.
Your beliefs are also just beliefs -- based upon personal experience -- whereas my beliefs are based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote.

I do not believe that even Baha’u’llah was one with God or that He displayed Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence like God does. This is totally contrary to Baha’i beliefs. ONLY God is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. No human or Manifestation of God is ever “one with God.” God forever remains in His own High Place. Moreover, we are warned against believing we are partners with God:

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192
“It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest. Shall, then, the thing that was born by virtue of the word which His Pen hath revealed, and which the finger of His Will hath directed, be regarded as partner with Him, or an embodiment of His Self? Far be it from His glory that human pen or tongue should hint at His mystery, or that human heart conceive His Essence. All else besides Him stand poor and desolate at His door, all are powerless before the greatness of His might, all are but slaves in His Kingdom. He is rich enough to dispense with all creatures.”
All the confusion is in your own mind. Baha’u’llah did not teach meditation techniques. He did not offer commentary on the esoteric gospels. These are just a couple of examples. Other universal Manifestations of God have done that.
A Manifestation of God is not required to teach meditation techniques, any human being can learn those and teach them. A Manifestation of God is not required to offer commentary on the esoteric gospels because those are a vestige of past a dispensation.

Other than Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, there have been no Universal Manifestations of God since Jesus, and there will be no more until at least the year 2852 AD.

You are not required to believe any of that because you are not a Baha’i.

This is not about ME; it is about what Baha’u’llah taught. Ask any other Baha’i on this forum if God has sent any other Manifestations of God other than those I listed.
You have a very narrow understanding of Baha’u’llah's words. Even when he says "Prophets" your change it to "Prophet" to suit your spiritual ego. Check out his words carefully.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy? In like manner, every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world with the resplendent radiance of the Day Star of Divine knowledge, they have invariably summoned its peoples to embrace the light of God through such means as best befitted the exigencies of the age in which they appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

Baha’u’llah is not suggesting that only a single prophet would appears in every age. He is using the plural form to suggest that more than one prophet can appear in an age. In any case, why you want to limit God's power again?
I do not limit God’s power, God does whatever God chooses to do, but God does not send more than one Universal Manifestation of God (Prophet) in every age.

Nice try, but when Baha’u’llah said “every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world” that is plural because there have been many Prophets, one in every age, not many in the same age. Please note that Divine Physician is not plural. Also please note that in the following passage Baha’u’llah says: “every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived”; He does not say every age in which Manifestations of God hath lived. It is ludicrous to even think that any Manifestation of God needed a “little helper.”

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60

You cannot make the Baha’i Faith fit into the Hindu religion. Its teachings are clearly different. The primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith is that there is only one Manifestation of God in every age, and that there will not be another Manifestation of God for a full thousand years.

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346
 
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