'forgive them for they know not what they do' is all evil just misunderstanding?

Sep 2017
346
Earth
#1
Christ's last words were Father forgive them for they know not what they do..

Are all evil people just doing what they think is good in their own minds? Even enemies of Abdul Baha like the covenant breakers?

Abdul Baha revealed a prayer for the covenant breakers and in it he also says To God to 'forgive them for they are ignoble and foolish and know not what they do'

A lack of awareness seems to beget forgiveness, so is this all evil is? Nobody willfully does evil?

I thought maybe the pharisees recognised Christ but did not want to accept but it seems as Christ says different.

Also covenant breakers I thought they recognised the truth Of Abdul Baha but wilfully denied, but Abdul Bahas prayer says different.

Please can someone offer their thoughts
 
Last edited:
Apr 2011
1,080
Hyrule
#3
Please can someone offer their thoughts
:think:

Christ's last words were Father forgive them for they know not what they do..
According to Luke, these were not his last words, but they were one of his last words since they are known as the First Saying of Christ on the Cross. I am not sure who the author thought Christ was addressing in Luke 23.34. The soldiers?

Are all evil people just doing what they think is good in their own minds? Even enemies of Abdul Baha like the covenant breakers?
"All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD."​
(Proverbs 16.2)​
Abdul Baha revealed a prayer for the covenant breakers and in it he also says To God to 'forgive them for they are ignoble and foolish and know not what they do'
A lack of awareness seems to beget forgiveness, so is this all evil is? Nobody willfully does evil?


I thought maybe the pharisees recognised Christ but did not want to accept but it seems as Christ says different.

Also covenant breakers I thought they recognised the truth Of Abdul Baha but wilfully denied, but Abdul Bahas prayer says different.

Please can someone offer their thoughts
See "The Pharisaic Phenomenon and the Dynamics of Denial."
 
Sep 2017
346
Earth
#5
:think:



According to Luke, these were not his last words, but they were one of his last words since they are known as the First Saying of Christ on the Cross. I am not sure who the author thought Christ was addressing in Luke 23.34. The soldiers?



"All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD."​
(Proverbs 16.2)​




See "The Pharisaic Phenomenon and the Dynamics of Denial."
Thanks this is actually what I'm trying to figure out !!

- from the article
Usually Bahá'ís insist that Covenant Breaking involves the most serious kind of sin because it is committed against the Cause of God by people who know full well what they are doing. For instance Abib Taherzadeh distinguishes between an enemy of the Faith and a Covenant-breaker in these terms "The former attack the Cause of God mainly through ignorance, and perhaps they will be forgiven by God. The latter, however, know where the Source of Truth is, but are unable to turn to it; instead, for their own selfish reasons, they knowingly rise up against it." (The Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 253-54). Yet 'Abdu'l-Bahá writes in the Will and Testament that the Covenant-breakers "know not what they do. They discern not good from evil, neither do they distinguish right from wrong, nor justice from injustice." (W&T p. 28.)

So which is it? Do they know or don't they know? I submit that both things are true. On some level they know what they are doing is wrong. On the other hand, it is impossible that they could continue to do so, unless they somehow manage to persuade themselves that what they are doing is not wrong.

I really need peoples views and help on this topic because I want to find the truth on this topic
 
Apr 2011
1,080
Hyrule
#6
Thanks this is actually what I'm trying to figure out !!

- from the article
Usually Bahá'ís insist that Covenant Breaking involves the most serious kind of sin because it is committed against the Cause of God by people who know full well what they are doing. For instance Abib Taherzadeh distinguishes between an enemy of the Faith and a Covenant-breaker in these terms "The former attack the Cause of God mainly through ignorance, and perhaps they will be forgiven by God. The latter, however, know where the Source of Truth is, but are unable to turn to it; instead, for their own selfish reasons, they knowingly rise up against it." (The Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 253-54). Yet 'Abdu'l-Bahá writes in the Will and Testament that the Covenant-breakers "know not what they do. They discern not good from evil, neither do they distinguish right from wrong, nor justice from injustice." (W&T p. 28.)

So which is it? Do they know or don't they know? I submit that both things are true. On some level they know what they are doing is wrong. On the other hand, it is impossible that they could continue to do so, unless they somehow manage to persuade themselves that what they are doing is not wrong.

I really need peoples views and help on this topic because I want to find the truth on this topic
Here's what the article says:

Such people are what the psychiatrist Scott Peck terms the "People of the Lie." They usually appear quite ordinary. But as Scott Peck notes: "Evil is not committed by people who feel uncertain about their own righteousness, who question their own motives, who worry about betraying themselves. The evil in this world is committed by the . . . self righteous who think they are without sin because they are unwilling to suffer the discomfort of significant self-examination." (People of the Lie, p. 72). Such persons according to Scott Peck commonly use scapegoating in order to deflect blame from themselves, sacrificing "others to preserve their self-image of perfection." Peck goes on to say: "Scapegoating works through a mechanism psychiatrists call projection. Since the evil, deep down, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as the world's fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad." (pp. 73-74) We can see many of these elements operating in the case of Mason Remey. His rigid understanding of the Covenant persuades him that there has to be a second Guardian. This is inextricably intertwined with his own desire to be appointed as such. Remey finally concludes that he has been appointed and that the Hands of the Cause are perverse for not recognizing him. Yet he knows full well that no such appointment took place. He finally has no choice but to blame the one who "failed" to appoint him, Shoghi Effendi! Eventually he describes the Guardian as a "sick and disorganized soul" and unabashedly speaks of "violations of the Faith that were made unwittingly by Shoghi Effendi." (Johnson: 370) This from someone who accused the Hands of having discarded the Will and Testament! If the world confronts us with our shortcomings, how much more does Revelation!
 
Sep 2017
346
Earth
#7
Here's what the article says:

I have just found something that disagrees with all of that actually and I cant wrap my mind around it tbh. But here it is ...

Thus it is seen that no means for dissension hath been left, but carnal desires are the cause of difference as it is the case with the violators. These do not doubt the validity of the Covenant but selfish motives have dragged them to this condition. It is not that they do not know what they do—they are perfectly aware and still they exhibit opposition.
 
Jul 2017
341
Olympia, WA, USA
#8
Christ's last words were Father forgive them for they know not what they do..

Are all evil people just doing what they think is good in their own minds? Even enemies of Abdul Baha like the covenant breakers?
I absolutely do not believe that. There is such a thing as evil. To say it is just the absence of good is semantics.

“Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand. Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets.” Gleanings, pp. 149-150

I have been dealing with an evil person so I know what evil looks like. I think that some people live to do evil and they know better. Extreme selfishness and narcissism leads to evil. To forgive these people is not doing them any favors. We have to stand up to them because if we don't they will just go on to hurt others.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
 
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Sep 2017
346
Earth
#9
I absolutely do not believe that. There is such a thing as evil. To say it is just the absence of good is semantics.

“Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand. Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets.” Gleanings, pp. 149-150

I have been dealing with an evil person so I know what evil looks like. I think that some people live to do evil and they know better. Extreme selfishness and narcissism leads to evil. To forgive these people is not doing them any favors. We have to stand up to them because if we don't they will just go on to hurt others.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
But Abdul Baha being the exemplar he did extreme acts of kindness to the covenant breakers before it went public and that's hard to understand
 
Jul 2017
341
Olympia, WA, USA
#10
But Abdul Baha being the exemplar he did extreme acts of kindness to the covenant breakers before it went public and that's hard to understand
What is hard to understand is how Abdu'l-Baha contradicts himself:

Is this Revelation based upon justice or kindness towards ALL? I wish someone would make up their minds.
As far as I have ever known, the Baha'i Faith is not the same as Christianity; forgive them for they know not what they do was Christianity. This is a New Day of God and Justice must prevail. It is not Justice to allow people to abuse you and take advantage of you. I never saw any Writings of Baha'u'llah that said we should love everyone regardless of what they do. It was Abdu'l-Baha who said that.

Abdu'l-Baha clearly contradicts himself in what is bold underlined in the following quotes.

“You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts … be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. … Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 453.
“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
I cannot consider the man who has filed a vicious lawsuit against me, a man who is a liar and a con-man, as my friend. I am offended by him and I am not going to forgive him because he knows exactly what he is doing. Why should I love and forgive him? Show me where Baha'u'llah said I should do that.