'forgive them for they know not what they do' is all evil just misunderstanding?

Sep 2017
370
Earth
#11
What is hard to understand is how Abdu'l-Baha contradicts himself:

Is this Revelation based upon justice or kindness towards ALL? I wish someone would make up their minds.
As far as I have ever known, the Baha'i Faith is not the same as Christianity; forgive them for they know not what they do was Christianity. This is a New Day of God and Justice must prevail. It is not Justice to allow people to abuse you and take advantage of you. I never saw any Writings of Baha'u'llah that said we should love everyone regardless of what they do. It was Abdu'l-Baha who said that.

Abdu'l-Baha clearly contradicts himself in what I boldened in the following quotes.

“You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts … be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. … Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 453.
“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
I cannot consider the man who has filed a vicious lawsuit against me, a man who is a liar and a con-man, as my friend. Show me where Baha'u'llah said I should do that.
Im not really to sure, I am not the person to ask maybe start a thread with that as a question not many people comment on my threads because my questions are repetitive, but the writings generally are confusing to me and very hard to comprehend.

One thing I do know is Abdul Baha was The Master, and he can never be wrong, but understanding these things are very frustrating to me, so I dont have any answers, just a lot more questions which I wish I could ask Abdul Baha. I hope you find your answer
 
Jul 2017
419
Olympia, WA, USA
#12
Im not really to sure, I am not the person to ask maybe start a thread with that as a question not many people comment on my threads because my questions are repetitive, but the writings generally are confusing to me and very hard to comprehend.

One thing I do know is Abdul Baha was The Master, and he can never be wrong, but understanding these things are very frustrating to me, so I dont have any answers, just a lot more questions which I wish I could ask Abdul Baha. I hope you find your answer
Unfortunately I do not have the answer either, just more questions. I do not know id there IS an answer, maybe just different perspectives. I look forward to those perspectives.
 
Sep 2018
81
usa
#13
I cannot consider the man who has filed a vicious lawsuit against me, a man who is a liar and a con-man, as my friend. I am offended by him and I am not going to forgive him because he knows exactly what he is doing. Why should I love and forgive him? Show me where Baha'u'llah said I should do that.
mastering unconditional love for the whole word, is an monumental task, even for the best of us, such as yourself :)
 
Apr 2011
1,083
Hyrule
#14
forgive them for they know not what they do was Christianity.
"Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
(Matthew 12.31)

"So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables."
(John 2.15)
 
Likes: Trailblazer
Jul 2017
291
Kettering, Ohio USA
#15
What is hard to understand is how Abdu'l-Baha contradicts himself:

Is this Revelation based upon justice or kindness towards ALL? I wish someone would make up their minds.
As far as I have ever known, the Baha'i Faith is not the same as Christianity; forgive them for they know not what they do was Christianity. This is a New Day of God and Justice must prevail. It is not Justice to allow people to abuse you and take advantage of you. I never saw any Writings of Baha'u'llah that said we should love everyone regardless of what they do. It was Abdu'l-Baha who said that.

Abdu'l-Baha clearly contradicts himself in what is bold underlined in the following quotes.

“You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts … be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. … Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 453.
“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
I cannot consider the man who has filed a vicious lawsuit against me, a man who is a liar and a con-man, as my friend. I am offended by him and I am not going to forgive him because he knows exactly what he is doing. Why should I love and forgive him? Show me where Baha'u'llah said I should do that.
There is a difference between treating someone kindly and loving them. A situation could necessitate not treating someone kindly but you could still love them
 
Likes: Traveller
Jul 2017
419
Olympia, WA, USA
#16
mastering unconditional love for the whole word, is an monumental task, even for the best of us, such as yourself :)
And it is a task that won't be completed unless I understand the reason of it.
it has to make sense to me and I have to see where Baha'u'llah said to do it, not just and interpretation by Abdu'l-Baha, as Abdu'l-Baha is not infallible. :(
 
Jul 2017
419
Olympia, WA, USA
#17
There is a difference between treating someone kindly and loving them. A situation could necessitate not treating someone kindly but you could still love them
Hypothetically that is true, but I am not God so I am not going to love everyone as God does.
 
Sep 2018
81
usa
#18
He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body.

(Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)​

The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established.

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CXXXI)​

It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.

(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-i-Maqsúd)​

Ye dwell in one world, and have been created through the operation of one Will.

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CLVI)​

Be ye as the fingers of one hand, the members of one body.

(Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas)​

Ye are all the leaves of one tree and the drops of one ocean.

(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Bishárát)​

O CHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest.

(Bahá’u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 68)​
how can we be united as one, if we don't love one another?
god is one, his manifestations are one, now its our turn to become united as one.
 
Feb 2019
164
Chicago
#19
What is hard to understand is how Abdu'l-Baha contradicts himself:

Is this Revelation based upon justice or kindness towards ALL? I wish someone would make up their minds.
As far as I have ever known, the Baha'i Faith is not the same as Christianity; forgive them for they know not what they do was Christianity. This is a New Day of God and Justice must prevail. It is not Justice to allow people to abuse you and take advantage of you. I never saw any Writings of Baha'u'llah that said we should love everyone regardless of what they do. It was Abdu'l-Baha who said that.

Abdu'l-Baha clearly contradicts himself in what is bold underlined in the following quotes.

“You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts … be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. … Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 453.
“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
I cannot consider the man who has filed a vicious lawsuit against me, a man who is a liar and a con-man, as my friend. I am offended by him and I am not going to forgive him because he knows exactly what he is doing. Why should I love and forgive him? Show me where Baha'u'llah said I should do that.
I don't see Abdu'l-Baha contradicting himself but it appears to you that way because he is expressing two aspects of the same truth and often times one aspect of the truth will be different from another aspect of the truth as they will be applicable in different situations and you need to put together all the aspects to realize the whole truth. I can give a couple of examples from the life of Jesus and explain further. Jesus was not always meek like a lamb and turning the other cheek. Look at this incident from his life.

Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. "It is written," he said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it 'a den of robbers.'" (Matthew 21:12-13)

God and His manifestations reform us through love and justice. Those are the two aspects of promoting righteousness. Whether to apply love or deliver justice depends on the situation and the people that are being dealt with. Some people's human nature is such that they are not receptive to love. If you don't act against their unjust or evil acts, they will continue with their behaviour and cause more harm. True spirituality is not spinelessness. A truly spiritual person must have moral courage and inner strength to stand up for what is right while being inwardly forgiving and loving at all times. Forgiving does not mean doing nothing against wrong doers. Forgiving means overcoming your hurt feelings and not responding with anger or hatred but from a plane of peace and love. Such a response could be very hard on the wrong doer to render justice, restore order and promote righteousness but it should be executed without feeling anger or hatred and in accordance with God's will as you intuit it from your own inner communion with God. In other cases, where you may believe the wrong doer's heart can be touched and transformed with your love, you can choose that option which is what Jesus did on the cross. But he did not choose that option when he drove out the money changers from the temple. Choosing the right option is not easy for an ordinary person. It requires a wise mind and a loving heart that most people don't possess. And so they react in a very human way - mean, unforgiving, hateful and perhaps with violence and the world continues to be in a mess. I hope you are better able to appreciate Abdul Baha's seemingly contradictory messages in the light of my comments.

Consider the following words of Jesus from the Bible:

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God” (Matthew 5:9)

“I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household" (Matthew 10:34-36)

Do you see a contradiction in these verses. In Matthew 10:34-36, Jesus appears like a trouble maker and not a prophet. We should not always interpret the words of a prophet literally. Such interpretation would often times be meaningless as evident from a literal reading of Matthew 10:34-36.
 
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Likes: Trailblazer
May 2018
111
New Zealand
#20
I don't really see a contradiction ..

Treating someone justly may not be kindly, but it is still love.

Evil might be a choice, but only because we fail to know ourselves, and know God .. ..

My 2cents worth ,
-T