Getting kicked out

Jun 2006
4,319
California
#22
I need a brainchip for these answers. :)

Where it not for observers or people outside the Faith, how would the world ever know of our existence?
There are certainly many activities that are open to non-Baha'is... Friends of Baha'is were invited to particpate in the Youth Conferences of last summer that were held world wide! Also devotional meetings and study classes are open to non-Baha'is. Holy Days are open to non-Baha'is. Our Nineteen Day Feasts are for Baha'is only... If there is a non - Baha'i present at Feast we can skip the administration portion and have prayers and social activity following. Unit Conventions are for Baha'is only. A non-Baha'i could attend a portion of an Assembly Meetings if the issue concerned them such as a Baha'i marriage where non-Baha'is are involved. So there really are plenty of opportunties to learn more about the Faith. :)
 
Jan 2014
53
Here
#23
Even after reading this thread, I still don't really understand exactly what qualifies a person as a covenant breaker? I don't mean quotes from the writings, I mean in someone's own words, what specifically would someone have done to have such a label attached to them? Who makes that decision? What is the process that occurs prior to that decision being made?
 
Oct 2013
1,208
United States
#24
A covenant breaker is someone who makes a claim to authority in the Baha'i Faith apart from the Center of the Covenant.

Baha'u'llah was the first authority of the Baha'i Faith, then authority was passed to His son Abdu'l-Baha via Kitab-i-Ahd (Book of the Covenant), then the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha passed authority to the Guardian of the Faith (Shoghi Effendi), the Hands of the Cause of God and the nine custodians elected from their membership, and the Universal House of Justice.

The Kitab-i-Aqdas and other tablets of Baha'u'llah also describe the future authority of the Guardianship and the House of Justice, in a way more fully described by the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha.

Chronologically, the heads of the faith have been:

1) 1863-1892 Baha'u'llah (from Baha'u'llah's declaration that He was He Whom God shall make Manifest, until his Ascension)

2) 1892-1921 Abdu'l-Baha (from Baha'u'llah's Ascension until the Ascension of Abdu'l-Baha)

3) 1921-1957 Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith (with Abdu'l-Baha's sister Bahiyyah Khanum acting as deputy during the Guardian's absences from the holy land)

4) 1957-1963 The Custodians (nine Hands of the Cause elected from among all their body)

5) 1963 and afterwards, the Universal House of Justice.

During the ministry of each of these five centers of the covenant, there have been challenges to the authority to head the Baha'i Faith.

In the time of Baha'u'llah, the main challenger was Mirza Yahya, led on by the Dajjal Siyyid Muhammad. Eventually Yahya's rebellion became open, and he was separated from Baha'u'llah.

In the time of Abdu'l-Baha, it was His brother Mirza Muhammad Ali who eventually openly opposed His leadership of the Faith and was finally declared a covenant breaker.

In the time of Shoghi Effendi, all of the rest of Baha'u'llah's descendants refused to obey the Guardian as head of the Faith and many were declared as covenant breakers.

During the ministry of the custodians, One Hand of the Cause, Mason Remey (influenced by Joel Marangella, a member of the national spiritual assembly of France) decided on no good reason and against the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, that he was the "second guardian". Eventually the other Hands declared him to be a covenant breaker, along with Marangella and a few others who supported Remey.

None of these rebellions have ever amounted to much. Today there are a dozen or two people who follow the remnants of the Remey group. No trace remains of the covenant breakers who opposed Abdu'l-Baha. And there are today about thousand or so Alazis, descendents of those Babis who did not become Baha'is and who chose to give Mirza Yahya their allegiance instead.

So that is why we have one Baha'i Faith, instead of dozens or hundreds of disunified factions fighting against one another. The Covenant of Baha'u'llah has given a clear line of authority for the Faith which today is the Universal House of Justice. This prevents any schism from happening to the cause.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2013
1,208
United States
#25
I didn't quite answer your question though Grace!

People are declared covenant breakers when they decide to try to create a division in the Cause and start their own branch of the Baha'i Faith that does not recognize the Universal House of Justice.

In the case of Mirza Yahya, Mirza Muhammad Ali and Mason Remey, the head of the faith at that time gave each of them years, and tried to allow them to reconcile, before they were declared covenant breakers.

I can't comment on any other cases though.
 
Mar 2013
491
none
#26
It may be that there is just not what may be, that its not found the next, but to the back of all to be one enought to see and not mean what is mean to each other.
Because fear for the reason that made reason to the mind that have spoken. Its everytime its divides its broken. Because it would be one, if it not did. It would not be the other and me and me and the other. It would be that story inside a story...
that nathan the wise told. the ring parable to his sun, inside the story told and shown in reference an meaning, what is it to see.
Its about the truth and true religion and its about family about love and about what it is to keep and not break.
Inside the Story the parable tell A ring was given to his sun, the ring of that great glory that came and was come with that to the father, but all sons had given a ring in and with the testament, so one was the former and two the copies... so... it was not known and unknown which would be the true and right one.
Inside the play written by that Gotthold Ephraim Lessing, that great author and theorist of its play, as another wrote a book you will not find without search "Blumen" it means flowers, its another language Gott in the dramas Gotthold E. Lessing. And its the Theodor that keep the latin of the deus inside. And its Flowers that title "Blumen" and its the language that shades the flower like the flower shades the inside. The book about flowers is a book about beauty and love and that to love, it is not of matter, that he writes about the gummy tree and its blood of the gum and so the production, its a mind that shows to have sight and mercy with just all life, and its the life that told ánd wrote about flowers that did wrote it in a drama about a father, that wise men nathan, that told a story inside that play, that ring parable.
And I can speak, and say, its of meaning if its not meant and its not of life if it cares not but denies and judge ad rejects and is jelly and need to be what it just would be if it would not need what it is to take. Take a flower or take a ring - mind the meaning

The meaning of the parable: It's impossible to show in matter, but it is possible to be and love you all three the same, that it would be matter that would betray my love to you three and not the matter that would reveal the one behind that three. And they would not loose that ring that was of glory, because the justr would know, its the same love, the same meaning, just another sun, that will tell you another life, another story and so it is to listen to that story to know another.

And its not to break... that ring since its one that is in all or is not even in one since its all that cares or one is lost to the one that cares not and so all are lost to be cared not. So break not with you tale, even if they did and made, its that done that made you, that what made me. It's what made a difference in the story, the path and the meaning, because what does it mean to you to break not the convenant?
What is the meaning to yourself and if it is towards that or this, what does it means and is meant to be and is it done and achieved in the result of the so made and seen?

What does it mean to you - what has it meant and why has one spoken and not spoken else?

Just think, once upon a time, your forefathers forfathers, or just your far relatives, made it through the desert, and they have moved together and in one tribe and with that one good and god, with the wise men, and that golde treasure box, that ark. What may it has been used, it does not matter, it makes just a late noise to the former that was not that, but a morning, a waking up in and to that desert that just was out of that ark and out of that two that walked along and carried that around and with you. You can know, that it was some running feet that made some money and not cared but hurried to care the treasure out of the home and its shell. They seperated and they lost the knowledge, of the other and that what made him running, it may be a reason that was not mentioned not dared and spoken but in that one night, it was good and bad in one to rund and to stay and which one can step forward now and speak: that was the best run and hide and sell that golden treasure? Its not one. Its not one that would know for sure, what has left in person, reason and object and reference.

Somebody leaves home, and he can leave because its wrong or seen wrong and so made out to be not but be again, or it could be gone and taken half of the treasured and half not and so denied and made and made it for a reason and who will know all that lost minds and reason that made another out of the same. And which mind should mind it in one to heal them all to see or not even one, and can not what has been broken and broken and is beyond a reconstruction, a recreation a refinding of the given, not the need for the seek for the missing. Why do you go and why did one leave us. Judge the leave to not mind a reason, hate them and leave and not mind, what happened to them and will happen again, since you would change and not leave if it would be known, how to prevent.

It wrote some text. And I had the whole time that judged one in mind, and felt sorry, and I had just the question in mind, why did he left and what made such harsh judgement. I cant know, and I would judge in to say he may or would or it was up or not up ... I just say I feel sorry, and would like to know, to know why... because I read and I kknow not and never will know. Its that, what I think the reason that is lost in the break that makes two stories and not one that would see another to be the same if its not "right" in the own.
 
Jan 2014
53
Here
#27
Thank you Matthew for all your information. It is helpful to see it laid out like that! So in that case a covenant breaker would be different to a person who has had their membership revoked by the UHJ? I think in my mind not really understanding it, I thought a covenant breaker was a person who been removed from the Faith for any number of reasons.

Thefrog, I always love your responses to everyone, but it takes me a while to digest it and see where you are going with it. You definitely think things through very thoroughly, I like that.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2013
1,208
United States
#28
Thank you Matthew for all your information. It is helpful to see it laid out like that! So in that case a covenant breaker would be different to a person who has had their membership revoked by the UHJ? I think in my mind not really understanding it, I thought a covenant breaker was a person who been removed from the Faith for any number of reasons.
Having your membership revoked is entirely different from being declared a covenant breaker. We are told to avoid covenant breakers and not speak to them - that injunction does NOT apply to those whose membership in the Baha'i community was revoked by the house (I think there has been about 1/2 dozen or less in this category). One of them posts regularly to this forum and has friendly relationships with many of the Baha'is here, you've probably read his posts. Baha'is are also not told to avoid those who withdraw from the faith...
 
Jun 2006
4,319
California
#30
Only the House of Justice can identify a "Covenant Breaker".. One who consciously attempts to attack the Central Figures of the Faith and maybe set up their own authority and organization within the Faith... Prior to this attempts are made to consult with the individual before a determination is made.. I recall only one case in the past fourteen years. So we do not converse or interact with them ..

We can pray that such a person can be restored to the Faith but they must repent of their actions...only the House of Justice can grant such a person readmission to the Cause.

An article is available on the subject at

Covenant, The, and Covenant-breaker
 

Similar threads