How to talk about the resurrection

May 2011
94
Kentucky
Lord of Goblins- I didn't take his meaning quite so literally. I thought the point of his story wasn't that he denied paradise, but that he didn't understand why Christianity had become so exclusive, when Jesus himself was inclusive and sought out the sinners, the poor, the unhealthy, so that he may be an example and help others to better themselves.

I think it was more a commentary of living your life as Christlike as possible, and how being a Christian has become a "title" and not a way of life in Modern times, rather than about Heaven and Hell.

But I could be wrong....
 
Dec 2010
2,056
Australia
Ironically when you think about it a Bahai would not disagree with what this guy says when he goes on his passionate rhetoric "i deny the resurrection when I watch little children suffer and do nothing..." etc etc
that sortof thing. We dont deny the resurrection either but of course this is a point of contention with others whether it is literal.
Thats why it probably does not matter in the end all that much what you believe about the resurection. The resurrection was true. After Jesus died was winter. Then spring came and then summer and the religion of Jesus took off tenfold. That was the summer of that religion. If the resurrection of Jesus never happened then it would have stayed in winter...
I did abit more research on this guy and he seems to be challenging Christians common ideas by trying to make people think and be unconventional...

Nuck- I see your point about the meeting with Saint Peter in heaven.
Personally if I gave a speech I would not use such a story because it is misleading about the nature of heaven and hell like it is some trivial thing. But that is a personal choice. Also there is alot of idle fancy in the world such things might lead to more confusion. Then again each to their own...
 
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Dec 2010
2,056
Australia
Here is an interesting Sermon on that statement - THEY FORSOOK HIM AND FLED

I could never say that they still did not love Christ, or Christ them....“But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled” (Matthew 26:56).

Cheers Tony:yes:
Some of my thoughts...

From my own limited understanding of what I have read I get the impression that the disciples were not possessed of the martyr's spirit. That is they loved Jesus and were attracted but they were not quite at that level yet.
This is no insult to them. Peter was the only one that followed Jesus. That is quite surprising. But if we consider that perhaps before They were raised up their faith had not become "great" (sorry too lazy to find a better word for this atm) then it sortof makes sense.
It seems to me that Jesus is constantly exhorting their disciples saying "come up higher to the level I have destined for you"....
Peter was the only one who was close but when he denied Jesus three times it showed even he was not possessed of the martyr spirit or he would have willingly taken up his own cross behind Jesus at that point when he was on trial...
 
Sep 2010
2,106
United Kingdom
Some of my thoughts...

From my own limited understanding of what I have read I get the impression that the disciples were not possessed of the martyr's spirit. That is they loved Jesus and were attracted but they were not quite at that level yet.
This is no insult to them. Peter was the only one that followed Jesus. That is quite surprising. But if we consider that perhaps before They were raised up their faith had not become "great" (sorry too lazy to find a better word for this atm) then it sortof makes sense.
It seems to me that Jesus is constantly exhorting their disciples saying "come up higher to the level I have destined for you"....
Peter was the only one who was close but when he denied Jesus three times it showed even he was not possessed of the martyr spirit or he would have willingly taken up his own cross behind Jesus at that point when he was on trial...
Correction: Mary Magdalene stayed by esus' side throughout his entire Passion. She was at the Foot of the Cross with his mother the Virgin Mary and his aunt Mary Clopas (All three of them were called Mary), she watched his burial and she came to annoint his body on the Third Day.

She surely had the "martyr's spirit"? In fact all the women disciples were braver than the male ones and all of them witnessed Jesus' Crucifxtion and stayed by his side. Although Mary Magdalene was with the "family" group at the foot of the Cross all the other female disciples - Joanna, Susanna etc. - were looking at these events from further away.

That is why the important Church Father Saint John Chrysostom ( 349–407) and Abdu'l-Baha referred to these Early Christian women as "lionesses" - they were gutsy!!!!

In reference to Paul's praiseful greeting of "Mary" (thought by many modern scholars to be Mary Magdalene in Rome as the Early Traditions suggest), Chrysostom was moved to say:

"How is this? A woman (Mary), again, is honoured and proclaimed victorious! Again, are we men put to shame. Or rather, we are not put to shame only, but have even an honour conferred upon us. For an honour we have, in that there are such women among us, but we are put to shame in that we men are left so far behind by them...For the women of those days were more spirited than lions!" - Saint John Chrysostom
"All were shaken but Mary Magdalen. She was a veritable lioness. She gathered the others together and said, "Why do ye mourn? Did not the Christ foretell his crucifixion? Arise, and be assured. They have killed but the body; the reality can never die, for it is supreme, eternal, the word of God, the son of God. Why, therefore, are ye agitated?" Thus this heroine became the cause of re-establishing the faith of the apostles. (50:2)

My hope is that each one of you may become as Mary Magdalen - for this woman was superior to all the men of her time and her reality is ever shining from the horizon of Christ"
- Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 50
If you have a brief glance at all four of the Crucifixtion accounts in the Gospels (I assume you probably own a Bible and a Qur'an?) you will see that the accounts refer to Jesus' female disciples in addition to "crowds of women beating their breasts" and wailing for Jesus.

:yes:
 
Sep 2010
1,758
Louisiana
a tangential point: Occam's razor!!!!

"Then Jesus told Peter to put away his sword and said, “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?” (Matthew 26:53-54).

Okay if Jesus was GOD why does He have to pray to Himself?

Yes, I know one has a church explanation to this question, but the most simple answer is He is separate. Occam's razor!!!!

I cannot read any Biblical scripture without seeing validation for the Baha'i point, whereas to maintain doctrine/dogma/whateverthatis I have to accept someone else's answer, not my own. I am not good enough to be able to make consclusions myself. There has been a revolution of sorts prior to the Baha'i Faith that no one stands between each man and God, isn't my idea that I can decide for me just further evolution of that whether Baha'i or not. I can see being Christian and not believing in the physical resurrection and that Christ is not consubstantial with God. Okay, I guess that would make me a heretic in some churches. The more complex an answer the less I trust it.
 
Sep 2010
1,758
Louisiana
accept everything except challenge

Additionally I have run into holistically educated, savvy Jews, Hindus, Moslems, and Christians (Catholic Nuns, Mother Teresa) who accept everything as all is from God, but by doing so refuse challenge to their own belief by doing this. It is the best wall I have seen against considering the Baha'i Faith. It also elevates them above us poor struggling teachers of a new Faith. "There, there, dear, we are all from God. You don't have to believe as I do if you are good and do right, and I don't have to bother to consider anything else because I already know so much." The issue is the disunity of the world is destroying it. This is as blindly adhering as any fundamentalist preacher who wants the world to end and show how smart and spritual he is. Does money pour in while we wait for the world to end?
 
Sep 2010
2,106
United Kingdom
Additionally I have run into holistically educated, savvy Jews, Hindus, Moslems, and Christians (Catholic Nuns, Mother Teresa) who accept everything as all is from God, but by doing so refuse challenge to their own belief by doing this. It is the best wall I have seen against considering the Baha'i Faith. It also elevates them above us poor struggling teachers of a new Faith. "There, there, dear, we are all from God. You don't have to believe as I do if you are good and do right, and I don't have to bother to consider anything else because I already know so much." The issue is the disunity of the world is destroying it. This is as blindly adhering as any fundamentalist preacher who wants the world to end and show how smart and spritual he is. Does money pour in while we wait for the world to end?
Hmm...:rolleyes: So are you against Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Christians with an ecumenical, interfaith worldview? I would rather have thought Baha'is would encourage this in other religions. Mother Theresa is a woman that I have the utmost respect for, and the reverance she showed towards believers of other faith's and her resistance of attempts by other more Fundamentalist-minded Christians to try and convert those native Indians to Christianity, garnered her a lot of love from around the world. Her famous adage is, "Be a good Muslim, be a good Christian, be a good Hindu"...I actually think that we could do with a whole lot more people like her from all the world religions :bigsmile:
 
May 2011
2
Fort St John
The Bab and Jesus might have some similarities...

This may interest some people - Martyrdom of the Bab

A Comparison of Jesus and the Báb

Anyone reading the martyrdoms of both Jesus and the Báb, will notice some very intriguing similarities...

1)The age of the Báb and length of His mission are similar to those of Jesus.

2)Both had farcical trials with predictable conclusions.

3)The Báb is put to death on the eve of Ramadan, exactly as Jesus is martyred on the eve of Sabbath and the Passover, for the same reasons.

4)The Báb being paraded through town on an ass recalls Jesus' entry into Jerusalem.

5)The Báb met His martyrdom at noon, which is the time Jesus was taken away to His death in John.

6)Both are suspended in the air, have one fellow-companion going to Paradise, and the same words are uttered for their going there.

7)The Báb instructs His disciples to deny their faith, much as Jesus' disciples fled and denied Him in order for His faith to continue.

8)Both the Báb and Jesus demonstrate a power over martyrdom that shows it was a voluntary death.

9)Both are struck by a sword / spear.

10)The disappearance of the Báb before the people, is similar to Jesus' disappearance from the tomb.

11)A long darkness (and other natural wonders) follows the deaths of both the Báb and Jesus.

12)Guards are posted over both the Báb's and Jesus' bodies so that their bodies are not taken, but both fail in their jobs.

13)The bodies of both the Báb and Jesus are both found disappeared on the third day.

14)In both cases a report is spread abroad to cover the disappearance.

Cheers Tony :yes:
There might be a lot of similarities between the two, but the true successor to the station of "Christ" (which literally means an anointed male heir of the Davidic kings) is Baha'u'llah, whose ancestry can be traced from father to son in a direct line to King David. Jesus Was a "Christ" because of his ancestry, through Joseph and Mary, as the literal heir to the throne of King David
 
Sep 2010
1,758
Louisiana
Okay, I probably deserve that!

Hmm...:rolleyes: So are you against Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Christians with an ecumenical, interfaith worldview? I would rather have thought Baha'is would encourage this in other religions. Mother Theresa is a woman that I have the utmost respect for, and the reverance she showed towards believers of other faith's and her resistance of attempts by other more Fundamentalist-minded Christians to try and convert those native Indians to Christianity, garnered her a lot of love from around the world. Her famous adage is, "Be a good Muslim, be a good Christian, be a good Hindu"...I actually think that we could do with a whole lot more people like her from all the world religions :bigsmile:
You are right. We do accept a moderate unity view, but there are a very small number of people that will unify with others. Baha'u'llah said that we had refused the Most Great Peace and are now going through travails that will continue until the world is united. Me, I, am too distressed about me to be rather objective right now. Pardon me.