Jesus resurrection

Mar 2015
42
Switzerland
#1
The Bible is pretty clear on that subject. Jesus died on the cross, they put him into a tomb, the tomb was empty after 3 days, then He appeared people and ate a fish.
But most Bahais believe, that all of this happened, until the empty tomb, which was a symbol and also, that He appeared to his disciples was a symbol. That is, because Abdul Baha has shown us a symbolic viewpoint of the resurrection.

But at the moment I think, that the new Testament is a historical description of Jesus doings. The tomb was historically empty, and he appeared historically to the disciples.

Baha'u'llah says, that Holy Texts have hidden and not hidden meanings, that don't contradict each other. So in my opinion, the Bible gives us the meaning of the story which is not hidden. Abdul Baha was afaik talking to a christian, in "Some answered questions". He knew, she had a Bible at home, he knew, that she has read the historical accounts.

Since, he would be very bad at his job as interpreter, if he just recited the story of Jesus resurrection, he has told her one of the 70 hidden meanings of the story.

I don't think, that his wish was, to deny all of the historical events, that happened after Jesus death. He was not there to deny or approve anything. He was there, to tell us one of the hidden meanings of the story.

TLDR: I believe that Jesus tomb was empty, and he ate fish with his disciples, what do you think?
 
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Apr 2011
1,086
Hyrule
#2
Abdul Baha was afaik talking to a christian, in "Some answered questions".
No. Abdu'l-Baha thinks miracles are not important. See SAQ.

Luke has Jesus say "No spirit has flesh and bones as you see me having," but Paul's Jesus is different: we find "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (1 Corinthians 15.50; 15.45). A lot of ink has been spilled over this contradiction.

Paul's writings predate the Gospels.
 
Mar 2015
42
Switzerland
#3
No. Abdu'l-Baha thinks miracles are not important. See SAQ.
So did Jesus. I don't know what you mean by that. Abdul Baha doesn't deny miracles as far as I know.

"No spirit has flesh and bones as you see me having,"
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

"Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (1 Corinthians 15.50; 15.45). A lot of ink has been spilled over this contradiction.
That is no contradiction for me. Jesus resurrected spiritually, and has manifested his body, to show the disciples. Normal ghosts can't manifest a body. Jesus was telling them, that he was not a mere ghost, He was Jesus spirit. The spirit of Jesus is very powerful and can manifest a body, if He wishes.

Jesus did not resurrect bodily, like Lazarus. Jesus resurrected spiritually, but appeared to the disciples in bodily form. The denial of the resurrection of the body, is the denial, that Jesus was "Flesh that can't inherit kingdom of God". It is not the denial, that Jesus was a spirit and was seen by his friends in bodily form. Abdul Baha even said, that the disciples "saw Jesus living, helping and protecting them".

Compare this to the Quran, where it says "The angel appeared to Mary as a perfect man". We know that Jesus and Angel are not creatures of a body. But they can appear like that.
 
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Apr 2011
1,086
Hyrule
#4
So did Jesus. I don't know what you mean by that. Abdul Baha doesn't deny miracles as far as I know.
Abdu'l-Baha said:

". . . and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent."

And he said:

"The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear."

Can you imagine a Christian apologist saying this?

Jesus resurrected spiritually, and has manifested his body, to show the disciples.
So are you saying he left his physical body behind to rot? But that's just it: Paul doesn't say anything like Jesus manifested his physical body to his disciples.

Normal ghosts can't manifest a body. Jesus was telling them, that he was not a mere ghost, He was Jesus spirit. The spirit of Jesus is very powerful and can manifest a body, if He wishes.
Paul doesn't say that.

Jesus did not resurrect bodily, like Lazarus. Jesus resurrected spiritually, but appeared to the disciples in bodily form. The denial of the resurrection of the body, is the denial, that Jesus was "Flesh that can't inherit kingdom of God".
Paul asks the Corinthians:

"But someone will say, 'How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"

Your answer to this question is confusing.

First, Paul doesn't sound like later Christians. They spoke clearly. For example, Justin Martyr says: "the resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died." Why doesn't Paul say something like this?

Second, you say the risen Jesus ate fish, but it's impossible for the risen Jesus to have eaten fish as we find in Luke 24.41-43, because Paul said: "Food is for the stomach, and the stomach for food, but God will do away with both" (1 Cor. 6.13). Paul is in accord with the Talmud on this point, for it says some Jews believed there would be no eating after the resurrection.

It is not the denial, that Jesus was a spirit and was seen by his friends in bodily form. Abdul Baha even said, that the disciples "saw Jesus living, helping and protecting them".
It sounds like you're talking about visions. Where does Abdu'l-Baha say that?
 
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Mar 2013
276
Netherlands
#5
Save wrote:

at the moment I think, that the new Testament is a historical description of Jesus doings. The tomb was historically empty, and he appeared historically to the disciples.


Let's say you're right, and Jesus appeared to His disciples, as mentioned in the Bible. Does that mean in the flesh or in the spirit?

Suzanne
 
Mar 2015
42
Switzerland
#6
So are you saying he left his physical body behind to rot?
I believe in Abdul Baha, who said, that Jesus body disappeared.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 193-194
Can you imagine a Christian apologist saying this?
No, but it doesn't deny miracles. People are evolved, and miracles are of no importance anymore. Spiritual miracles are bigger than material ones.
It sounds like you're talking about visions. Where does Abdu'l-Baha say that?
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 106-107

Even if it is a vision, it happened. Maybe they all had the same dream of Jesus eating a fish.

Second, you say the risen Jesus ate fish, but it's impossible for the risen Jesus to have eaten fish
Jesus appeared as a body, like an angel also can appear as a body. Christ is kinda all powerful, so he can manifest a body, if he wants. Paul maybe didn't emphasize the fact, that Jesus appeared to people, because it was common knowledge.
Let's say you're right, and Jesus appeared to His disciples, as mentioned in the Bible. Does that mean in the flesh or in the spirit?
Flesh dies and is subject to physics. Jesus went through walls, Jesus appeared 500 people in short time. Jesus was not in the flesh. Jesus reality is devine. He wanted to make a point, and proof that he lives, so he appeared as a body. He wanted to proof that he wasn't a mere ghost, so he probably ate a fish.

What Paul says about people who die can't eat fish, doesnt apply to Jesus. Jesus is devine, and he had a mission. He wanted to prove that he lives.

I am not saying, that all dead people have a body. I am saying that Jesus wanted to make a point, so he appeared as a body. He wasn't in flesh, but manifested a solid body for himself, when He wanted. Maybe, in the next world, we won't have a body, but we will be able to manifest, when we want. Like in a lucid dream, that is purely spiritual, yet we have a "body" in dreams.

I am talking about this because of this provisional translation here:
Baha'u'llah:
"Blessed are they that cling both to the literal and to the esoteric, for those are His servants that have believed in the Universal Word. Know that whoso clingeth to the outward sense of the words, leaving aside their esoteric significance, is simply ignorant. And whoso concentrateth on the metaphorical sense to the exclusion of the prosaic meaning is heedless. Only the one who interpreteth the Verses esoterically while harmonizing this reading with the literal meaning can be said to be a complete scholar. This maxim hath dawned from the horzon of knowledge, so know thou its value and cherish its excellence."

http://bahai-library.org/provisionals/surah.sun.html

In my opinion, denying the prosaic text of the resurrection would be clinging to only the esoteric. If we would do it, then we could also say, that all the Bible is a metaphor, and Jesus never lived. That all of this is just a metaphor for the Invincible spirit in humans. (I know people who see the whole new testament as a metaphor)
I don't think that we can decide that one part of a prosaic text is literal, and the other part of the same prosaic text is only a metaphor.
 
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Apr 2011
1,086
Hyrule
#7
Paul maybe didn't emphasize the fact, that Jesus appeared to people, because it was common knowledge.
Emphasize is the wrong word here. He omits what we find in Luke 24.41-43 because, well, it didn't happen.

What Paul says about people who die can't eat fish, doesn't apply to Jesus. Jesus is divine, and he had a mission. He wanted to prove that he lives.
But Paul says our resurrected body will be just like Jesus' risen body (1 Cor. 15.49). 1 Cor. 6.13 applies to Jesus too.
 
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May 2013
1,786
forest falls california
#8
A spiritual fish... !!

So did Jesus. I don't know what you mean by that. Abdul Baha doesn't deny miracles as far as I know.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

. It comes down to a test for everone to take. We either pass or fail in our comprehension of reality. To believe... or not to believe... that is the question.

. People have been story-telling for tens of thousands of years... Did ya hear the one about???

. Children "demand" stories, and they want them s t r e t c h e d . . .
Every notice that??

. They want to be led into the land of mystery... scared a little...
. They want to be led into the unknown, where they have to determine what is real or unreal. It makes them grow, and find their own selves, with their own sense of dignity.

. So we could all agree here and now to create our own mythical gnostic gospels or something. This agreement could be perpetuated according to the appetite of the public which seeks to follow vain imaginings instead of truth, because not everybody can handle the truth.

. The Divine Sifter is also at work. "He doeth what He willeth" and He alloweth us to believeth whatever we wanteth, including fish stories.

. So let us insert a spiritual fish into the algorythm, and a New Modern 5th Edition Quantum Translation Revised and Everything for the Modern Reader...

. Is there no such room for allowing that people 2,000 years ago still needed an "out"? That if they simply told it like it was: He was crucified, they put His body in a tomb, but some of His followers moved it because it was sure to be desecrated, yet one by one His true followers began to understand that "He" was not His physical, mortal body which had been taken from Him and nailed to a tree - that indeed!!! He truly lives, and is amongst them!!!

. but shhhhh... don't disturb the masses or show too much excitement at this profound realization, for the murderers are still on the loose, the wolves are hungry for more human blood, and we need to tell this story in such a way that the discerning may be informed, while the bad guys are led off on a different trail. You know... the literal one??

. so the "Resurrection" became "physical" for the material minded, the kids who still needed the security blanket, and that was "ok"... they still got the message, became followers of the Spirit of God, Ruhu'llah, and were transformed.

. while the bad guys retained their free will, gathered the gold, and slaughtered the innocents.

. "This is only a test... a test... a test..." but there will be hell to pay if you don't pass it, and here are the rules: "Love thy neighbor as thyself. As ye do to the least of these, ye do unto Me..." etc

. And in this Day of God, we are tested with the recognition of the appearance of the "Father", the Sender of the Messengers, Whom the Son referred to as the Spirit of Truth, Who shall come to lead you into all truth...

. And this is the Day of Judgement, the Day of Separation, the Day of Resurrection... which the Bab clearly enunciated, calling Himself the Remembrance.

. And well prior to His crucifixion, Jesus told us that He was "the Resurrection and the Life". And the Bab describes Him as the Ressurection of Moses, Who was the Resurrection of Abraham, etc...

. and this is not a physical Resurrection. It is much more than that. But we can dwell on the physical, mortal body, and form an idol to worship, if it be our wish, and let it serve as yet another distraction, another story, to keep us from fulfilling what the Messengers have come to tell us we are to do, which is to live the life, and to teach the Cause of God, and build the Kingdom of God, the Administrative Order, that we may all live happily every after...

. Amen!!!

;-)
 
Mar 2013
276
Netherlands
#9
So did Jesus. I don't know what you mean by that. Abdul Baha doesn't deny miracles as far as I know.



Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."


That is no contradiction for me. Jesus resurrected spiritually, and has manifested his body, to show the disciples. Normal ghosts can't manifest a body. Jesus was telling them, that he was not a mere ghost, He was Jesus spirit. The spirit of Jesus is very powerful and can manifest a body, if He wishes.

Jesus did not resurrect bodily, like Lazarus. Jesus resurrected spiritually, but appeared to the disciples in bodily form. The denial of the resurrection of the body, is the denial, that Jesus was "Flesh that can't inherit kingdom of God". It is not the denial, that Jesus was a spirit and was seen by his friends in bodily form. Abdul Baha even said, that the disciples "saw Jesus living, helping and protecting them".

Compare this to the Quran, where it says "The angel appeared to Mary as a perfect man". We know that Jesus and Angel are not creatures of a body. But they can appear like that.

You could well be right. I am reminded of this story about the Bab, who was physically imprisoned but who seemingly manifested Himself bodily to the warden outside of the prison:

“One day the Báb charged my brother to inform Shaykh Hasan that He would Himself request ‘Alí Khán to alter his attitude towards the believers who visited Máh-Kú and to abandon his severity. ‘Tell him,’ He added, ‘I will to-morrow instruct the warden to conduct him to this place.’ I was greatly surprised at such a message. How could the domineering and self-willed ‘Alí Khán, I thought to myself, be induced to relax the severity of his discipline? Early the next day, the gate of the castle being still closed, we were surprised by a sudden knock at the door, knowing full well that orders had been given that no one was to be admitted before the hour of sunrise. We recognised the voice of ‘Alí Khán, who seemed to be expostulating with the guards, one of whom presently came in and informed me that the warden of the castle insisted on being allowed admittance into the presence of the Báb. I conveyed his message and was commanded to usher him at once into His presence. As I was stepping out of the door of His antechamber, I found ‘Alí Khán standing at the threshold in an attitude of complete submission, his face betraying an expression of unusual humility and wonder. His self-assertiveness and pride seemed to have entirely vanished. Humbly and with extreme courtesy, he returned my salute and begged me to allow him to enter the presence of the Báb. I conducted him to the room which my Master occupied. His limbs trembled as he followed me. An inner agitation which he could not conceal 247 brooded over his face. The Báb arose from His seat and welcomed him. Bowing reverently, ‘Alí Khán approached and flung himself at His feet. ‘Deliver me,’ he pleaded, ‘from my perplexity. I adjure You, by the Prophet of God, Your illustrious Ancestor, to dissipate my doubts, for their weight has well-nigh crushed my heart. I was riding through the wilderness and was approaching the gate of the town, when, it being the hour of dawn, my eyes suddenly beheld You standing by the side of the river engaged in offering Your prayer. With outstretched arms and upraised eyes, You were invoking the name of God. I stood still and watched You. I was waiting for You to terminate Your devotions that I might approach and rebuke You for having ventured to leave the castle without my leave. In Your communion with God, You seemed so wrapt in worship that You were utterly forgetful of Yourself. I quietly approached You; in Your state of rapture, You remained wholly unaware of my presence. I was suddenly seized with great fear and recoiled at the thought of awakening You from Your ecstasy. I decided to leave You, to proceed to the guards and to reprove them for their negligent conduct. I soon found out, to my amazement, that both the outer and inner gates were closed. They were opened at my request, I was ushered into Your presence, and now find You, to my wonder, seated before me. I am utterly confounded. I know not whether my reason has deserted me.’ The Báb answered and said: ‘What you have witnessed is true and undeniable. You belittled this Revelation and have contemptuously disdained its Author. God, the All-Merciful, desiring not to afflict you with His punishment, has willed to reveal to your eyes the Truth. By His Divine interposition, He has instilled into your heart the love of His chosen One, and caused you to recognise the unconquerable power of His Faith.’” The Dawnbreakers, Page 248
 
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Apr 2015
211
Las Vegas, Nevada
#10
The miracles of Yeshua are not important. We were not there, it does not matter to us. That being said, they are good stories to tell children and even new converts to show the power of Allah. But what should also be noted is that this "Bible" may not even be the word of Allah, it is tampered with constantly! So notice that those may not be Allah's or the Apostles' words, it could just be men or the corrupt churches. What actual historical scholars AND what the manifestations say is that there was a man named Yeshua, preached God's message, and was crucified.

The resurrection of Yeshua was symbolic and was to show how Allah is always with Allah's people. There were many visions of the apostles. That may or be not be their words. The Bible is useless today because we don't know its true words. Only things like the Qur'an, Báb and Bahá'u'lláh's words are worth arguing.