Krishna- Reincarnation - Bhagavad Gita

Jcc

Mar 2013
597
Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
There are sufficient studies and indological findings about the origin of the texts and the chronological order, more than enough.

As the Indian traditions cannot be measured against scientific standards, because the formation of myths is a decisive factor, scientific research is usually rejected.

It is assumed that scientific research deliberately reinterprets history for colonialist reasons or wants to present it as less authentic than Christian history (because research is of course so interested in strengthening Christianity, ehmm).

In short, a great conspiracy theory against science, which claims it has a vile motivation not to undergo historical-critical research.

Very interesting are the Puranas. The Puranas are stories, a wild mixture of invented, distorted or even true narratives. Each Indian religious current creates its own stories to confirm its own convictions.

They are all considered authentic knowledge as long as they share the conclusions of the original scriptures. In Western society this would rightly be answered with a shake of the head.

If one would open oneself to science and admit that these texts are not 10000 years old or similar, perhaps the social aspects contained in them would be questioned. This would of course mean that some social structures would have to be questioned. For example, the position of women, caste system and similar.
You make some good points here, especially the last two sentences. I completely agree that traditional religious beliefs should be re-evaluated and social values based on traditional interpretations of scriptures are in many cases degrading and harmful if looked at by modern standards. This does not just apply to Hindu scriptures, but also to the Bible and Qur’an. I think scientific analysis can help to undo some of that by showing where literal interpretations can’t be correct because they would be contrary to evidence and fact, which forces a reinterpretation of the scriptures.

That doesn’t make any new interpretations people may come up with correct, of course. A new revelation from God is needed to set the standard for understanding past scriptures, just like the New Testament provides keys to understanding the Old Testament which are frequently different from traditional interpretations by the Jews, and the Buddha provided a very different understanding of Hindu traditions that existed at the time. Baha’u’llah provides a very different understanding of past scriptures as well, which to me both makes better sense than traditional interpretations and also speaks to my heart and spirit. That is a key difference between a strictly scientific approach and a new divine revelation, science speaks to the mind, true revelation speaks to both mind and heart.
 
Feb 2019
252
Chicago
There are sufficient studies and indological findings about the origin of the texts and the chronological order, more than enough.

As the Indian traditions cannot be measured against scientific standards, because the formation of myths is a decisive factor, scientific research is usually rejected.

It is assumed that scientific research deliberately reinterprets history for colonialist reasons or wants to present it as less authentic than Christian history (because research is of course so interested in strengthening Christianity, ehmm).

In short, a great conspiracy theory against science, which claims it has a vile motivation not to undergo historical-critical research.

Very interesting are the Puranas. The Puranas are stories, a wild mixture of invented, distorted or even true narratives. Each Indian religious current creates its own stories to confirm its own convictions.

They are all considered authentic knowledge as long as they share the conclusions of the original scriptures. In Western society this would rightly be answered with a shake of the head.

If one would open oneself to science and admit that these texts are not 10000 years old or similar, perhaps the social aspects contained in them would be questioned. This would of course mean that some social structures would have to be questioned. For example, the position of women, caste system and similar.
Galileo was charged with heresy by the church in 1633 for teaching that the Earth is not flat and orbits the Sun. One of the names Hindus always used for our planet was Bhugola which is a combination of Bhu (earth) and gola (ball or globe). Long before the West discovered that the Earth was not flat, Hindus mathematician-astronomers like Aryabhatta insisted that the earth rotates about its axis daily, and that the apparent movement of the stars is a relative motion caused by the rotation of the earth, contrary to the then-prevailing view, that the sky rotated. Surya Siddhanta is the name of a Sanskrit treatise in Indian astronomy from the late 4th-century or early 5th-century CE. rules to calculate the motions of various planets and the moon relative to various constellations, diameters of various planets, and calculates the orbits of various astronomical bodies.[6][7] The text asserts, according to Markanday and Srivatsava, that the earth is of a spherical shape .
Scott L. Montgomery; Alok Kumar (2015). A History of Science in World Cultures: Voices of Knowledge. Routledge. pp. 104–105. ISBN 978-1-317-43906-6.

You seem to make very careless comments without actually studying Hinduism and India. Those Westerners who have seriously studied Hinduism and India have a different opinion

“If I were to look over the whole world to find out the country most richly endowed with all the wealth, power, and beauty that nature can bestow—in some parts a very paradise on earth—I should point to India. If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most full developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered on the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions of some of them which well deserve the attention even of those who have studied Plato and Kant—I should point to India. And if I were to ask myself from what literature we, here in Europe, we who have been nurtured almost exclusively on the thoughts of Greeks and Romans, and of one Semitic race, the Jewish, may draw that corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly human, a life, not for this life only, but a transfigured and eternal life—again I should point to India.”
Friedrich Max Müller, India: What Can it Teach Us? A Course of Lectures Delivered before the University of Cambridge

“We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made.” ― Albert Einstein

“India was the motherland of our race
and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages.
India was the mother of our philosophy,
of much of our mathematics, of the ideals embodied in
Christianity... of self-government and democracy.
In many ways, Mother India is the mother of us all.” ― Will Durant

"It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western
beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in
self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment
in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way.
Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the
human race to grow together in to a single family.
So now we turn to India. This spiritual gift, that makes a man human,
is still alive in Indian souls. Go on giving the world Indian examples
of it. Nothing else can do so much to help mankind to save itself from
destruction.

There may or may not be only one single absolute truth and only one
single ultimate way of salvation. We do not know. But we do know that
there are more approaches to truth than one, and more means of
salvation than one.’’‘‘This is a hard saying for adherents of the
higher religions of the Judaic family (Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam), but it is a truism for Hindus. The spirit of mutual good-will,
esteem, and veritable love ... is the traditional spirit of the
religions of the Indian family. This is one of India’s gifts to the
world." - Arnold Toynbee, British historian, philosopher, author and a devout Christian.

“Whatever sphere of the human mind you may select for your special study, whether it be language, or religion, or mythology, or philosophy, whether it be laws or customs, primitive art or primitive science, everywhere, you have to go to India, whether you like it or not, because some of the most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India, and in India only.”
Friedrich Max Müller, India: What Can it Teach Us? A Course of Lectures Delivered before the University of Cambridge
 
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Oct 2019
59
Vrindavan
You make some good points here, especially the last two sentences. I completely agree that traditional religious beliefs should be re-evaluated and social values based on traditional interpretations of scriptures are in many cases degrading and harmful if looked at by modern standards. This does not just apply to Hindu scriptures, but also to the Bible and Qur’an. I think scientific analysis can help to undo some of that by showing where literal interpretations can’t be correct because they would be contrary to evidence and fact, which forces a reinterpretation of the scriptures.
We shouldn't make the mistake of scientificizing faith. There must be a balanced approach to gaining knowledge. The Bhagavad-gita teaches us that even the knowledge of God is sometimes only a partial knowledge of the Absolute. Sciences can only provide a partial knowledge in the area for which their methods are suitable. Beyond that, there are only conclusions. This can also exist in religion and spirituality. When the Indian schools of thought speak of science, they think that one should make one's conclusions on the basis of one's own experience, not on the basis of a dogma or a religious regulation. That is why the Vedic Revelation is not a closed one like the Abrahamic Revelation, but unfolds through further deepening. The Qur'an also had several levels of interpretation at the beginning. With the Bhagavad-gita it is nothing different. Understanding a Sanskrit term differently can open up a whole new horizon of understanding. This is important because our understanding is not complete.
 
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Oct 2019
59
Vrindavan
In short, a great conspiracy theory against science, which claims it has a vile motivation not to undergo historical-critical research.
Christian reality is full of arguments against political and scientific developments. Pope Benedict XVI made it clear that critical-historical exegesis carries the danger of subordinating faith to historical science. The Church defended faith against science even when science had the more conclusive arguments. That Christianity has come to terms with science is due to social circumstances. You noticed that correctly. But that doesn't mean that the Christian truths that were suppressed by it were wrong. They may just no longer be pronounced because atheism is dominant and religious people see their social acceptance threatened.
 

Jcc

Mar 2013
597
Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
Certainly Faith should not be subordinated to science. By its nature science can only deal with the material world, and that is only a portion of reality. There is a whole world of spirit, God and spiritual creatures, including the human soul, which science can’t speak to at all. We need faith to connect with the spiritual world, and faith is a gift from God, which is an inherent part of our nature as humans.

On the other hand, many traditional religious doctrines make assumptions about aspects of the material world which they really ought not to make. They take as literal descriptions of spiritual events, thinking that they relate to material events. If those material events are proven by science not to have occurred, for instance Noah’s flood covering literally the whole earth, then that can be a challenge to these traditional religious interpretations, and a challenge to faith based on those interpretations. That is not the purpose or nature of true faith, it is really just a fantasy.
 
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ams

Nov 2019
90
Thailand
If one would open oneself to science and admit that these texts are not 10000 years old or similar, perhaps the social aspects contained in them would be questioned. This would of course mean that some social structures would have to be questioned. For example, the position of women, caste system and similar.
Galileo was charged with heresy by the church in 1633 for teaching that the Earth is not flat and orbits the Sun. One of the names Hindus always used for our planet was Bhugola which is a combination of Bhu (earth) and gola (ball or globe). Long before the West discovered...
Hi Venu

there is - at least in my experience - no way... and no arguments... with members of an organisation....

which declared Jesus as the "the only one" (the only son of god)

at the same time declared Jesus as: God him self... in "his trinity".

and them self as: "The only one.... authorized representation church of Jesus=God" .


What those (by man) selfmade dogmatic declarations means? (at least for them)

It means: "There is no higher Religion, no higher Representation... of God... of Truth... of Christ etc... "... as by them self.

it means: "Only we are the one... religion of God. No one other."

In short: "Superiority over all others."


You can not get them to realize that this is not just false ... but also against christ.

Whatever arguments you bring. There is no way. Only endless word-fightings.


That why they constantly trying to make "the others"... down.
To show that themself are... "so higher then the others".

Always trying to find some errors in "the others".... at the same time not seeing the beam... in their own eyes.



Lets look at the history of this mindset: Fights and Fights and Fights... very very bloody.

Even against them self (i.e. catholic vs protestans 500 years ago) .


All those fights were in the core a fight about: We are Superiority over all others. No one can question this.

Unity and Ecumenism is not possible...
even with the own christians denominations.... because of --> "We... and only We.... are the only one... real church of Jesus=God".



This "spiritual superiority" is not able to shake the hands of others in spirituality....
and recognize the Sun in the God given Lamps (prophets etc...). of "the others"

Be it Hindu. Be it Bahais. Be it Buddhists. No one.

Whatever "the others" would say.
Whatever "the others" arguments ever would be.


They are not able to recognize that - for example - Yoganda... was a very genuine teacher of christ.

Or:

They are not able to recognize that - for example - Bahāʾullāh ... was a very genuine representation of christ.


Because of their self declared spiritual superiority.

Which makes them blind for the Sun... shining trought other lamps.


Only they are.. the one. The only one. The only true one.... representations of God. Of Truth. Of Light. (at least in their own mind)



If we look at this exclusive superiority mindset...
It is the same superiority mindset which many Muslim have about their Religion. About their view of Mohammed.

It is exactly the same.


Even Bahāʾullāh - a genuine representation of christ - could not reach people in this spiritual superiority.

The the sun shining trought Bahāʾullāh ( and Abdu'l-Bahá) were only able to reach people....
who where willing to give up this "we and only we.... are the only one"


Also the Message of Christ is (and also was 2000 years ago):

Get rid of your Superiority over others.

And still is. (not the only Message... but one very important message)


Only people are reachable giving up their superiority.

And only then true Unity and Brotherhood is possible.

And only then "the fight" is over... and a true constructive dialog... and a true together... could happen.

Before not. At least not with people which mind is attached to a superiority spirit...uality.


True spirituality unites.

But superiority splits.

Is "SpiritDuality"... and not true Spirituality.
 
Last edited:
Feb 2019
252
Chicago
Hi Venu

there is - at least in my experience - no way... and no arguments... with members of an organisation....

which declared Jesus as the "the only one" (the only son of god)

at the same time declared Jesus as: God him self... in "his trinity".

and them self as: "The only one.... authorized representation church of Jesus=God" .


What those (by man) selfmade dogmatic declarations means? (at least for them)

It means: "There is no higher Religion, no higher Representation... of God... of Truth... of Christ etc... "... as by them self.

it means: "Only we are the one... religion of God. No one other."

In short: "Superiority over all others."


You can not get them to realize that this is not just false ... but also against christ.

Whatever arguments you bring. There is no way. Only endless word-fightings.


That why they constantly trying to make "the others"... down.
To show that themself are... "so higher then the others".

Always trying to find some errors in "the others".... at the same time not seeing the beam... in their own eyes.



Lets look at the history of this mindset: Fights and Fights and Fights... very very bloody.

Even against them self (i.e. catholic vs protestans 500 years ago) .


All those fights were in the core a fight about: We are Superiority over all others. No one can question this.

Unity and Ecumenism is not possible...
even with the own christians denominations.... because of --> "We... and only We.... are the only one... real church of Jesus=God".



This "spiritual superiority" is not able to shake the hands of others in spirituality....
and recognize the Sun in the God given Lamps (prophets etc...). of "the others"

Be it Hindu. Be it Bahais. Be it Buddhists. No one.

Whatever "the others" would say.
Whatever "the others" arguments ever would be.


They are not able to recognize that - for example - Yoganda... was a very genuine teacher of christ.

Or:

They are not able to recognize that - for example - Bahāʾullāh ... was a very genuine representation of christ.


Because of their self declared spiritual superiority.

Which makes them blind for the Sun... shining trought other lamps.


Only they are.. the one. The only one. The only true one.... representations of God. Of Truth. Of Light. (at least in their own mind)



If we look at this exclusive superiority mindset...
It is the same superiority mindset which many Muslim have about their Religion. About their view of Mohammed.

It is exactly the same.


Even Bahāʾullāh - a genuine representation of christ - could not reach people in this spiritual superiority.

The the sun shining trought Bahāʾullāh ( and Abdu'l-Bahá) were only able to reach people....
who where willing to give up this "we and only we.... are the only one"


Also the Message of Christ is (and also was 2000 years ago):

Get rid of your Superiority over others.

And still is. (not the only Message... but one very important message)


Only people are reachable giving up their superiority.

And only then true Unity and Brotherhood is possible.

And only then "the fight" is over... and a true constructive dialog... and a true together... could happen.

Before not. At least not with people which mind is attached to a superiority spirit...uality.


True spirituality unites.

But superiority splits.

Is "SpiritDuality"... and not true Spirituality.
Jehoschua does not answer any valid questions asked about mainstream Christian teachings. He is busy putting down Hinduism. He claims Christianity has been subject to scientific scrutiny but can't offer any scientific evidence of a talking snake that fooled Eve and Adam in to going against God's will and eating the forbidden fruit. These were the first two people God supposedly created and they were so stupid that they believed a talking snake over God. What kind of God makes such stupid people. I mean why would any smart human being believe a snake that talks especially if it is encouraging him/her to violate God's will. A talking snake would be a very suspicious creature. And if the first two people God created were so stupid, it is no surprise they allowed incest between their children who supposedly had sexual relations between themselves to create more people. After all we are told the entire humanity came from Adam and Eve and so it follows that the children of Adam and Eve practiced incest. Science has proven that incest actually results in the birth of people with genetic defects. But then the first prophet of Abrahamic religions Adam was so unscientific that he allowed incest among his children. And this nonsense is supposed to have been scientifically proven according to Jehoschua's claims
 

Jcc

Mar 2013
597
Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
I don’t think he said any of those things were scientifically proven. So what is your point here, are you saying that both Christianity and Hinduism have traditional interpretations that should not be taken literally?
 
Feb 2019
252
Chicago
I don’t think he said any of those things were scientifically proven. So what is your point here, are you saying that both Christianity and Hinduism have traditional interpretations that should not be taken literally?
People in all religions have stories which may not have scientific evidence. In many cases they can be proved to be logically and physically impossible. For example take this story from the Bible related to the birth of Jesus which every devout Christian swears by.

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” - Matt 2:1-2

Jesus was born in Bethlehem. The three wise men came from the East which on a map would be a point to the right of Bethlehem. If the three wise men saw the star in the East and followed it, they would be going further away from Bethlehem because east would be towards their right where as Bethlehem would be towards their left. How did the wise men go towards their right ( East) and end up in the presence of Jesus who was towards their left?

Is this so called truth about the birth of Jesus logically convincing. Is it physically possible? Where is the scientific evidence for it. What exactly does Jehoschua mean by scientific scrutiny of Christianity whose truths collapse in 5 minutes of logical reasoning?
 
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ams

Nov 2019
90
Thailand
... is busy putting down Hinduism.
i know.

It's because of the mindset, that the own religion (or church)... is being superiority over all other religions (or churches).

I want to mention that - of course - not all Christians, also not all roman catholic Christians - are trapped in this mindset.

its just of all those very old traditional created ( <-- but not by Jesus) dogmas and theologys of being "the Nr.1... and the only Nr. 1"

In the core It is spiritual pride.

Bahāʾullāh (and Jesus... and Yogananda) was not teaching such but teached Unity and Oneness.
Not only on a socially or religious Level. But also on a deep level of the spirit of our all existence.

And because Bahāʾullāh, Jesus Christ and Yogananda were all Brothers in God with an enlightened consciousness ...
Jesus were also teaching the same in the core.

As it was... and is... and ever will be the case... of all true Prophets of Spirituality, Truth and God. Whenever. Wherever.

Unity and Oneness (especially on the level of our own individual spirit... which are all connected to God deep inside)
is the shared core of all spiritual teachings found in every Religion.

In Hindu teachings, in spiritual or mystical Christianity and Judaism, in Islam (Sufism) in Buddhism... and in Baha'i teachings.
 
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