Living a chaste an holy life as a Baha'i

Sep 2010
4,463
Normanton Far North Queensland
#41
It is pretty sweet how Baha'i quotes always seem to open our eyes just a bit, even if they are familiar to us. My usual remark is I have been trying to be a Baha'i, for 30 plus years, sometimes it feels like I am getting close, sometimes not so much! So glad to have finally joined this forum and will pray for you too Josh. Already feeling a sense of community.
Frankly - Sounds like you think like all of us ;)

It is this we must strive to

13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself, with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

And thus God Gives us Prayers, like this;

O God! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.
O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Jul 2014
20
NWT Canada
#42
Would not want to argue around that quote. It seems logical in the case prior to some mistake. But once a mistake has been made our reaction is crucial. Shame destroys us, it is measurable as a trauma according to Dr. Brown's research. Guilt is more a state where we are still Ok with ourselves but we will work to improve and change. Shame leads us to self destruction and depression. Certainly not doing the topic justice. When I first saw her TED talk there were around a million views. Just checked when getting these links it's over 16 million. Suggest if someone wants to watch, view them in the order shown. It will make more sense.

Does Baha'u'llah say that shame is the best way to stay on the straight and narrow? Or a capacity that a few possess and there are other ways such as obediance. In the original hidden word I quoted he said he desires not our shame.

For me the experience of growing up Catholic has given me lot's of memories of being shamed by teachers and priests. It was very traumatic. Yet Baha'is have shown me similar behaviors. This is a widespread situation and Dr. Brown has done some very interesting research. But it is not a simple topic. Were someone to view her talks or read her books and then proceed with, this is not complementary to our Faith for this reason, then it could get very interesting. But to dismiss her ideas because I am transmitting them in a less than ideal way disappoints me.

She is particularly animated around what shaming does to our children. Shame was the operative tool used in my upbringing. It has brought me nothing but grief and sadness. Oh there are lot's of terrible things I have not done, but I have been so hard on myself for things that have happened, some of them really not my fault, just circumstances piling up on an off day and the wrong thing gets said. Anyway should anyone care to check it out find a couple links below. Oh and the title of her latest book. Daring Greatly.

Would love it for a Persian to study Brene a bit and then read the quotes from Baha'u'llah in their original language and answer the question. Are they talking about the same thing?


http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame
 
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Oct 2011
4,213
Quilimari,Chile
#43
Shame

Dear Frankly

No my dear friend Baha'u'llah does not believe in shame either.

If you wish I could do a quick search.
One we do not confess to others, as it goes on to say God does not wish us to be shamed.

Abdul-Baha has a great deal to say on this matter, we are to understand that God is all loving and forgiving, we are to ask His forgiveness only and then move on to better behaviour confident in His forgiveness.

It is for us to use the sin covering eye with others, unless we wish to make some statement or some criticism in a loving manner to an institution, some thing many still appear not to fully understand.

Dear friend remember this we are all tested in life, and we are told our strongest tests will come from other Baha'is, we have to forgive them their immaturity and overlook their shame, by their superiority or whatever action has caused your hurt.

Yes I fully agree with you dear friend shame can truly destroy us, but when we deepen into the writings we discover that God does not wish us to be shamed, anyone who does such a thing (as shaming another) is not obedient to God.

I feel that you and I could maybe swap stories of cruel superior Baha'i actions, but then what benefit would it do, I have learn't to move on and forgive, because what they did was not to my shame, but theirs.

Loving regards to you
 
May 2013
1,786
forest falls california
#44
his sense of shame

Dear Frankly

No my dear friend Baha'u'llah does not believe in shame either.


Bill,
. I think you missed this quote a few posts back regarding "shame". No doubt that what some call shame or associate with that term may not be correct, or may be exagerated out of its true proportion, but here Baha'u'llah does refer to it. (This is being posted again, so I hope thats ok)


“… Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed and do not possess it.”

(Bahá’u’lláh: Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh revealed after the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1978 ed., p. 63)
 
Jul 2014
20
NWT Canada
#45
Another spot he mentions shame. #21 Persian Hidden Word.

O Moving Form of Dust!
I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of they rebellion hath felled the tree of they hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory have I chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not they chance.

We could indeed exchange stories of people who have disappointed us, forgiving and moving on does seem a more potent course of action. However, these behaviors are worthy of study and any effort to alter behavior that does not contribute to our well being is certainly worthwhile. I have seen horrendous damage, it is particularly hard to respond to when it seems mixed up with loving behavior, I am left wondering is either real? Generally left answering that question with a big no. No one is that mean or that nice, trust ends, unity does not result.

We seem to send the message that it is Ok to dump on us when we forgive. Over and over, where is that quote about not treating someone in a smooth and kindly way when that is not how we feel inside! It is not a straight forward life to live. People all fail, but when I tell someone that hurt and there is no apology or attempt to understand, what can you build with that?

So Brene has shown me ways in which many of us choose shame. This process has allowed me to feel better about myself. That is good.
 
Oct 2011
4,213
Quilimari,Chile
#46
Dear Frankly

No my dear friend Baha'u'llah does not believe in shame either.


Bill,
. I think you missed this quote a few posts back regarding "shame". No doubt that what some call shame or associate with that term may not be correct, or may be exagerated out of its true proportion, but here Baha'u'llah does refer to it. (This is being posted again, so I hope thats ok)


“… Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed and do not possess it.”

(Bahá’u’lláh: Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh revealed after the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1978 ed., p. 63)
OK thanks Dale, is difficult reading all.

But again God does not wish our shame, and reffering to the Quote from Frankly, here
O Moving Form of Dust!
I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of they rebellion hath felled the tree of they hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory have I chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not they chance.
This is us feeling shame, not God or Baha'u'llah wishing shame upon us.
But yes dear Frankly if this person Brene, has helped you, then wonderful.
Again Abdul-Baha has spoken on this theme but he used the word conscience, that not all mankind have it.

I refuse to publicly speak of what some people do who consider themselves religious it would fill volumes would it not, but again dear Frankly they are only exposing their shame not yours. Do you see what I am saying.

Many loving regards to you.
 
Jul 2014
20
NWT Canada
#47
It is this process of choosing shame for myself that Brene flushes out so convincingly. Far from any permanent solution of my own dilemmas, exposure to her studies of human nature seem to hold some very relevant keys. Given the awkwardness of the topic, the popularity of her talks and books seems to reveal an area for potential growth.

I think she would agree wholeheartedly with this quote from the writings, we have a choice to make and the more informed we are of how shame works, the less time we will spend repairing the damage it causes us and our institutions.
 
Oct 2011
4,213
Quilimari,Chile
#48
It is this process of choosing shame for myself that Brene flushes out so convincingly. Far from any permanent solution of my own dilemmas, exposure to her studies of human nature seem to hold some very relevant keys. Given the awkwardness of the topic, the popularity of her talks and books seems to reveal an area for potential growth.

I think she would agree wholeheartedly with this quote from the writings, we have a choice to make and the more informed we are of how shame works, the less time we will spend repairing the damage it causes us and our institutions.
Dear friend Yes as the earlier quote said, our sense of shame causes us to consider our actions, and as I also said earlier Abdul-Baha says that not all people have this sense, so in a way it is a good thing if we have it. Having said that, we are not of course to go to the other extreme were our sense of shame causes us to become inactive or consider ourselves completely unworthy, as you say we need to study the writings and understand, that shame within ourselves is just a warning system.

Now some here have spoken about others shaming or trying to shame others, this of course is forbidden, I feel. We always having to remember our own failings, the very reason for the use of the sin covering eye.

Big smile, dear friend when a person tries to shame me, in some manner, I pick up a stone and offer it to them, they quickly understand, and if not I explain, about if you are without sin then by all means throw the first stone. :bigsmile:

And yes I understand how a person can lose all confidence and hope by others trying to shame a person, but I feel and I feel correctly that God does not do this, He certainly does not work on the level of mental capacity of mankind.

I wish you well in your future, may you be a positive influence to all around you.
Bill
 
Jul 2014
832
colorado/summer-Oklahoma/winter
#49
Thank you Romane. I find comfort in your words. I see much of what you spoke of, and you reminded me of the appropriate attitude to take. I should not fear, but meet discord with the purpose of God's Holy Dispensation.....LOVE.
 
Jul 2014
20
NWT Canada
#50
It would be a treat were someone to go watch one of her TED talks and then try to engage this topic. Let me use something you said as an example of how this works Bill. You mentioned how you offer someone a stone when you feel they are trying to shame you. It seems simple for you. I could read your solution and feel ashamed of my inability to do the same. Or I could read it and think, he must have great authority and respect within his community to stop a shame spreader so easily. We often have no idea how our words impact others. It is probably an easier task to develop shame resilience, than it is to speak so carefully that we never offend someone else. A part of me feels wholly inadequate to stop some absolutely atrocious behavior of others, frustrated, angry, seething, sit by idly why yet another person is humiliated or say something and wind up taking the abuse for them.

I have witnessed displays of ego and judgment, from long time Baha'is, that look more like the temper tantrum of a 7 year old and no amount of clever comebacks will keep them from their mission of domination including the breaking of laws both Baha'i and civil. They are addicted to being right and no one has the fortitude or patience to put an end to the exact behavior I joined this faith to get away from. The ideal we strive for is one thing, the day to day reality too often something else, at least for me. It is one thing to read, understand, espouse and knock others over the head with the writings, it is quite another to live them!

There is a leadership vacuum, by design I think, in our faith, that psychopathic individuals try to fill with the old style cult of personality nonsense. The Baha'i ideal of consultation is a huge paradigm shift and obviously we are struggling to implement it.

These are very difficult discussions to have, how would one offered your stone not feel ashamed? We all make mistakes and in a culture that so highlights a fall from grace, many of us are just waiting to leap on those who do, thus the title of Brene's book. Daring Greatly. As Baha'is we need to step into the arena, try our best and be Ok with failure and error. Oh don't ignore our mistakes, just hold our heads up and keep on trying no matter what our critics might say. Usually we are our own worst critic.

So I notice you putting some of the pieces together Bill, such as our ability to try to say something that will induce shame in another. Ultimately Baha'u'llah's admonition that shame is our choice is profoundly wise.
 
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