Nazarethan Baha'i faith view of prayer from death

Apr 2013
161
Dorset , UK
#1
Nazarethan Baha'i faith view of prayer from death

Bible and Quran forbidden pray for death, this practice according scriptures are necromancy - kind of idolatry. Deaths are not living persons, man is creatures not "little gods" , of corse some people are "like gods" (spiritual children of God). But still they are not Creators but creatures

Bible forbidden necromancy because "starving spirits" (demons) desires adoration, sometimes they revealed as foster "relatives" and bid to worship the creatures (angels, mortal persons, deaths). This is not good way, even whose pray to God on cemetery, it's forbidden by Bible and Quran
Examples from Bible

Quran 12:106 "Themajorityof those whobelieve in GODdo not do so withoutcommitting idol worship"

Quran 7:194 " The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right."

Quran 3:79 " Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the" teachings you learn.
Quran 16:20-21 " As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected"


Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you."
 
Apr 2013
161
Dorset , UK
#3
Oh, you are so naughty, so wicked. We are so upset. Satisfied?

gnat
I am for you and not against YOU, I respect your beliefs but Bible and Quran say clearly prayer for death is sin of idolatry. It's your way what you choose, you get a free will and own reason
 
Aug 2014
1,346
Blue Planet
#4
Quran never says praying for the dead people is a sin!!!!! there are also tablets revealed by Imams as prayers to the dead people. also God Himself sends praises to the good spirits of death people.
 
Oct 2014
1,781
Stockholm
#5
Some children reach a moment, when they discover the wonderful world of nasty words. They try them out to test their environment. Then there are others, who look into other people's beliefs and figure our what they consider as the worst possible action. In the Bahá'í Faith, the creation of sects within the Faith is really a bad thing. So, if you have that childish urge to upset people, you try your best.

Out of the kindness of my heart, I therefore try to make such a person happy, by responding in the appropriate manner: "Oh you are so bad. You are doing such a nasty thing!"

But honestly, I se this as childish, immature behaviour that doesn't upset me a bit. I'm just bored. One has a certain amount of years on this earth, and the choice as to what to do with them. This is just a loss of time for all of us.

Best

from

gnat
 
Jun 2014
1,021
Wisconsin
#6
The gauntlet has been cast. Scriptures have been erroneously cited!! The scripture-junky Walrus is compelled to respond!! :cool:

Bible forbidden necromancy because "starving spirits" (demons) desires adoration, sometimes they revealed as foster "relatives"
Citation needed. Again you give your views on demonology but no reasons for believing those views. Why should I trust you know more about demonology than any other random person??

Examples from Bible

Quran 12:106 "Themajorityof those whobelieve in GODdo not do so withoutcommitting idol worship"
Nitpick: "Examples from Bible" is immediately preceded with Quranic verse. :p

Debunk: Praying for something is different than praying to something. If praying for the dead was the same as idolatry, then praying for anything else would be idolatry as well.

Let's examine a part of the Lord's Prayer. "Give us this day our daily bread" would be, according to your logic, a prayer to bread as an idol. Because if praying for a dead person is praying to them, then praying for bread is the same as praying to bread.

:p All those persons who say the Lord's Prayer are dastardly BREAD WORSHIPPERS!! :p

Quran 7:194 " The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right."
Debunk: Haha, what?! ;)

The whole Quran quote here, in context, is "Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and they are [themselves] created? And the false deities are unable to [give] them help, nor can they help themselves. And if you [believers] invite them to guidance, they will not follow you. It is all the same for you whether you invite them or you are silent. Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful. Do they have feet by which they walk? Or do they have hands by which they strike? Or do they have eyes by which they see? Or do they have ears by which they hear?" (emphasis added)

This verse is a CHALLENGE to polytheists to call upon their idols to show their power, if they are honest then their idols should respond. The point is that the idol does not and cannot respond. The point is that the idols have no power. Look at the parts of the verse I underlined. They clearly show that the verse teaches the exact opposite of what you are saying. You claim the idols are evil spirits. The Quran verse you cited claims they are powerless objects. It's literally saying the opposite of the claim you are using it as proof for :p

I'm guessing it's possible you read the phrase "and are themselves created" and assumed idols were evil spirits or living things. This is false. In the original Arabic "created" can refer to nonliving, inanimate objects as well, if that clears anything up for you. Worshiping a "created thing" doesn't have to be a demon or evil spirit. Worshiping a "created thing" can be a lifeless rock or hunk of metal.

Quran 3:79 " Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the" teachings you learn.
Debunk: See first debunk. Praying for is not praying to.

Quran 16:20-21 " As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected"
Verse is clearly about how idols are not "evil spirits" but are lifeless, created objects. If I build a golden bull and worship it, the Quran specifically says I'm not worshiping an evil spirit, as you claim, it says I am worshiping a lifeless hunk of metal.

Thanks for providing me with plenty of verses that actually debunk your claims, though. Saves me the work of doing it myself!! :cool:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you."
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 forbids:
-Acts of prestidigitation
-Professing to tell the future
-Trying to contact the dead
-Trying to summon the dead

Debunk: None of those things are "praying for the dead".

Conclusion:

You make two claims here, essentially. Claim #1 is Praying for the dead is idolatry. Claim #2 is Idolatry is bad. The conclusion of these axioms is "Praying for the dead is bad".

Every verse you cite in the Quran supports Claim #2, showing that it is true. Idolatry is bad.

NOTHING you quote shows claim #1 to be true. It does not follow. You'd need a verse to show #1 is true before your conclusion makes sense.

Your one bible quote only shows that summoning up spooky scary skeletons is bad. As is attempting to communicate with the dead. (and those laws have actually been abrogated, so if anyone out there is an actual necromancer, summon away, lol :p )

You set up two premises that lead to a conclusion, but only proved one premise.

PS Nitpick: I've mentioned it before but "Nazarethan" isn't actually a word in English, the word you are looking for is "Nazarene".
 
Last edited:
Apr 2013
161
Dorset , UK
#7
Walrus, you and Bahais do the same wrong way worship by prayers death like catholics or ortodox Christians, pray for death is abomination and bring the calamity
 
Apr 2013
161
Dorset , UK
#8
Maryamr quotes " there are also tablets revealed by Imams as prayers to the dead people"

Immams are clergy of Shia Islam . Shia Islam is corrupted Islam, they thinks that words of Immams is equal words of God like Quran and Bible, and this is the false religion and tradition. Sunni Muslims haven't any clergy,sunni Immams are only like Baha'i counselors
 
Last edited:
Apr 2013
161
Dorset , UK
#9
Sunni hadith of Muhammad forbidden pray for death

“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Link Shrines and grave worship | The Revival
 
Oct 2014
1,781
Stockholm
#10
Sunni hadith of Muhammad forbidden pray for death

“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Link Shrines and grave worship | The Revival
The only thing you produce is meaningless words, intended to upset people. Don't you ever feel ashamed of yourself, naughty boy?

gnat
 

Similar threads