Occultism

Mar 2013
520
_
#2
occult means hidden. there is no "occultism". It's an amorphic nearly meaningless term, akin to hinduism, another term made up by people who were not actually practitioners of the various practices they were trying to lump together. Freemasonry had its function once. I have had many close friends in various forms of freemasonry, from Scottish Rite to the more esoteric. If you want to know more about freemasonry ask a freemason.

As far as why certain western traditions are occult, I think that stems from the fact they were saving their skins to promulgate what wisdom was leaking out of the Muslim world, frankly. If you read the Rosicrucian Manifestos (and the very idea of secret European wisdom schools in the post-Medieval era begins with the Rosy Cross societies, however real the original order was) with an open eye, it is pretty clear that Christian Rosenkreuz was probably not a real person, but even if he had been, his journey to Damcar to learn teachings and then to teach those to a select few seems to be an early analogy of the begnnings of humanism in Europe. The Catholic Church and its affiliated kingdoms were happily killing free thinkers and generally keeping Europe in the cesspool of the world. So the secrecy was a survival tool. But the time for secrecy is long since past. Now it is useful only to sell things that should have been freely given. "We have no order but to heal the sick, and that gratis" - Fama Fraternatis

Without getting into details I have been a member of esoteric societies. I am no longer in active membership. I say that because certain oaths I feel are binding. IF you accept people as your brothers and sisters in spirit, they remain so. If you agree not to divulge certain things, you honor the oath. My opinion, personally, is that being a Baha'i and continuing a membership in secretive orders was incompatible, and I believe I have read words to that effect from the Guardian. I cannot find it right now.

The Baha'i faith has something to offer anyone looking for a spiritual life. I think for those who want something that makes sense and a way to have a religion they can practice, while living their lives, it can be that. For those who want their faith to consume every second of their lives (and they generally think it should be that way for eveyone else, oddly) it certainly seems to be that for some, and the mystic path is there too, though I think maybe very understandably. I suspect one could meditate on the seven valleys a lifetime. There are probably many Baha'i mystics, but they do not wear funny hats or have secret handshakes or work their way up degrees to they can wear even funnier hats. I suspect they do not even know one another. It is a solitary thing.

I don't know why you mention LeVay and the rest in one thing. Why not ask a question "Do you like Tomato Juice? Have you experienced liquids? What is your feeling about sewage?" That's all I have to say about that.

Tarot I can talk about for hours. Its something of a long fascination with me.

Tarot Cards started out in the 1400s, apparently, as playing cards for European Nobility. No earlier set has been found (I have a nice reproduction of the deck painted for the Visconti-Sforza family. It's beautiful. You can see where the later Marseille designs derive from). Anyone who tells you it's from ancient Egypt or the Roma is trying to sell you a 10 pound sack of manure, or already bought the sack and is trying to pass the savings on to you. The cards are (the trumps that is) the archetypes of various stages of a fool's progress in life. I was not trained to use them as a divination tool. For me they are a useful introspection method to simply have a quick meditation. Draw a card, ask myself what do I need to work on within myself, what do I need to be aware of. The cards have no inherent power. They are paper and ink. They do not require you have some special gift that eludes science. It's not complicated at all. They are fun to make little houses out of. And there are 78 instead of 52 so they are funner to shuffle.

Now anyone else whose use tarot cards will tell you why I am probably completely wrong :). Incidentally the game of tarrocchi is still played.
 
Sep 2010
4,461
Normanton Far North Queensland
#3
My opinion, personally, is that being a Baha'i and continuing a membership in secretive orders was incompatible, and I believe I have read words to that effect from the Guardian. I cannot find it right now.
Noogan there are a few on this subject, more of a list here - Lights of Guidance - Organizations, non-Baha'i

A couple of extracts from the link.

1389. Why Bahá’ís are Requested to Withdraw from Membership in the Church, Synagogue, etc.
“The point is not that there is something intrinsically wrong with Masonry, which no doubt has many very high ideals and principles, and has had a very good influence in the past.
“The reasons why the Guardian feels that it is imperative for the Bahá’ís to be dissociated from masonry at this time, and I might add, other secret associations, is that we are the building blocks of Bahá’u’lláh’s New World Order … the Bahá’ís should be absolutely independent, and stand identified only with their own teachings. That is why they are requested to withdraw from membership in the church, the synagogue, or whatever other previous religious organization they may have been affiliated with, to have nothing whatsoever to do with secret societies, or with political movements, etc. It protects the Cause, it reinforces the Cause, and it asserts before all the world its independent character.
“Another reason is that unfortunately the tremendous political influences in the world today are seeping deeper and deeper into men’s minds; and movements which in the past were absolutely uninfluenced by any political tinge of thought now in many places are becoming infiltrated with political side-taking and political issues; and it becomes all the more important for the Bahá’ís to withdraw from them in order to protect the Faith.
“The Guardian believes that you, as an intelligent man, a Bahá’í, will see the need for this. It is only by all living according to general principles that we can knit the fabric of the Faith all over the world into a closer unity.
“He is fully aware that certain individuals are struck much more forcibly by such requests than others. This has been the case with some of the old Bahá’ís in England, who have been Masons from their boyhood on; but, as it is his duty to protect the Faith, he can only appeal to the Bahá’ís to assist him in doing so; and to consider the general good, rather than their personal feelings, however deep they may be, in such matters.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 12, 1956)

1391. The Believers should Dissociate Themselves from Secret Organizations
“…Generally speaking, the friends should not enter secret societies. It is certainly much better for the believers to dissociate themselves from such organizations…”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Germany and Austria, March 2, 1951)

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Sep 2010
4,461
Normanton Far North Queensland
#4
So Bahai apparently accepts Christ, accepts Christianity and tells Christians to leave their churches to follow Bahai? It accepts Judaism but tells Jews to leave their synagogues? In effect to turn their backs on everything that they are, all their heritage, and walk away?

And that is supposed to be acceptance leading to world peace?

Yeah, no. Massive acceptance fail.

When I meet a Jew I accept who he or she is, and I make no attempt whatever to persuade them to leave the synagogue. I might ask permission to visit the synagogue with them but I would not want them to leave it. Acceptance means valuing the person as they are, not as they might be if only they were different.
Dear Cathie - If one is looking to find fault one will. We are told to search without any preconceptions.

You have miss read the passage and found Fault where there is none.

This passage is saying to people who now believe in Baha'u'llah who have made a choice already, not to reject their Faith in Christ, but make the break between the admin of the Church and now live the Bahai Life.

This is no different from a Jew that accepted Christ, if you find fault here you have faulted the message of Christ and its regenerating powers calling peoples to a new way of life.

We do as you say, we accept all people and all Faiths and to no one do we force to change their view. But if one comes to believe, then choices must be made. It does not say you can still not attend church services as many Baha'is still do. It is breaking with the administration and doctrons of The Church that now form no part of Bahai Worship.

This is but one small piece of advice to believers asking what they should do now they are Baha'is. There are many many passages giving more clarity to this, but I leave it to you.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Apr 2015
211
Las Vegas, Nevada
#5
So Bahai apparently accepts Christ, accepts Christianity and tells Christians to leave their churches to follow Bahai? It accepts Judaism but tells Jews to leave their synagogues? In effect to turn their backs on everything that they are, all their heritage, and walk away?

And that is supposed to be acceptance leading to world peace?

Yeah, no. Massive acceptance fail.

When I meet a Jew I accept who he or she is, and I make no attempt whatever to persuade them to leave the synagogue. I might ask permission to visit the synagogue with them but I would not want them to leave it. Acceptance means valuing the person as they are, not as they might be if only they were different.
Jesus told Jews to follow Him
 
Aug 2014
1,368
Blue Planet
#6
if i put aside religious views on the matter i should say that i am interested in things like horoscope and fortune telling! :p I don't think of them as being totally true but they are fun. I think in case of horoscope, stars and their position have some effects on the person who is born in a special time at the same time i don't think human's knowledge has reached the stage in which they can discover the relationship so for the time being it is better to look at them as fun.
 
Jul 2011
1,747
n ireland
#7
So Bahai apparently accepts Christ, accepts Christianity and tells Christians to leave their churches to follow Bahai? It accepts Judaism but tells Jews to leave their synagogues? In effect to turn their backs on everything that they are, all their heritage, and walk away?

And that is supposed to be acceptance leading to world peace?

Yeah, no. Massive acceptance fail.

When I meet a Jew I accept who he or she is, and I make no attempt whatever to persuade them to leave the synagogue. I might ask permission to visit the synagogue with them but I would not want them to leave it. Acceptance means valuing the person as they are, not as they might be if only they were different.
You misunderstand Cathie. When we become Baha'i we are asked not to be involved in institutions, organisations relating to our previous faith. One cannot be a Baha'i and an Anglican, Catholic, Muslim etc. you must be one or the other. It's in no way expected that people should end friendships etc, and it is encouraged that we attend various church services of any and all denominations promoting unity. As I live in a predominantly Catholic area I frequently attend Mass, however I don't take communion out of respect for Catholic believers
 
May 2013
1,786
forest falls california
#8
Church services

You misunderstand Cathie. When we become Baha'i we are asked not to be involved in institutions, organisations relating to our previous faith. One cannot be a Baha'i and an Anglican, Catholic, Muslim etc. you must be one or the other. It's in no way expected that people should end friendships etc, and it is encouraged that we attend various church services of any and all denominations promoting unity. As I live in a predominantly Catholic area I frequently attend Mass, however I don't take communion out of respect for Catholic believers

. Yes, I have attended joyfully many Church services since becoming a Baha'i 35 years ago, including Christmas and Easter celebrations. While living in a rather remote mountain village I attended regularly an Adventist Church where I was alway made to feel very welcome.

. As a Baha'i, however, it would be impossible for me to state two opposite views such as a belief that Christ would appear in 1844, but didn't show up, and the belief that the Bab appeared in 1844 as the fulfillment of that same expectation.

. How can one assert two opposite views: The belief that "He is coming", and the belief that "He has come". Thats what makes membership in a Church fundamentally impossible for a Baha'i. For one, it would indicate confusion on the part of the Baha'i as to Who the Bab and Baha'u'llah are. And two, it would only confuse the members of the Church, which would be a great disservice to them.

. No... we must be certain of our belief and then not waver.

.
 
Sep 2010
4,461
Normanton Far North Queensland
#9
No... we must be certain of our belief and then not waver.
Dear Dale ;)

I have found over the years that any rubbish posted about the Faith or verbally thrown at me about the Fairth was never a time when one would Waver, in fact at those times it just proved the Truth but even more!

What I have found is that the little voice of Self inside is very hideous and persistent and still trying to shake it off, it is some horseman! :eek: This is the thing I fear, the rest is very welcome as it has to be for unity to be! :surprised: :cool: :yes:

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Mar 2013
520
_
#10
Noogan there are a few on this subject, more of a list here - Lights of Guidance - Organizations, non-Baha'i

A couple of extracts from the link.

1389. Why Bahá’ís are Requested to Withdraw from Membership in the Church, Synagogue, etc.
“The point is not that there is something intrinsically wrong with Masonry, which no doubt has many very high ideals and principles, and has had a very good influence in the past.
“The reasons why the Guardian feels that it is imperative for the Bahá’ís to be dissociated from masonry at this time, and I might add, other secret associations, is that we are the building blocks of Bahá’u’lláh’s New World Order … the Bahá’ís should be absolutely independent, and stand identified only with their own teachings. That is why they are requested to withdraw from membership in the church, the synagogue, or whatever other previous religious organization they may have been affiliated with, to have nothing whatsoever to do with secret societies, or with political movements, etc. It protects the Cause, it reinforces the Cause, and it asserts before all the world its independent character.
“Another reason is that unfortunately the tremendous political influences in the world today are seeping deeper and deeper into men’s minds; and movements which in the past were absolutely uninfluenced by any political tinge of thought now in many places are becoming infiltrated with political side-taking and political issues; and it becomes all the more important for the Bahá’ís to withdraw from them in order to protect the Faith.
“The Guardian believes that you, as an intelligent man, a Bahá’í, will see the need for this. It is only by all living according to general principles that we can knit the fabric of the Faith all over the world into a closer unity.
“He is fully aware that certain individuals are struck much more forcibly by such requests than others. This has been the case with some of the old Bahá’ís in England, who have been Masons from their boyhood on; but, as it is his duty to protect the Faith, he can only appeal to the Bahá’ís to assist him in doing so; and to consider the general good, rather than their personal feelings, however deep they may be, in such matters.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 12, 1956)

1391. The Believers should Dissociate Themselves from Secret Organizations
“…Generally speaking, the friends should not enter secret societies. It is certainly much better for the believers to dissociate themselves from such organizations…”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Germany and Austria, March 2, 1951)

God Bless and Regards Tony
Yes, those are the references I was thinking of.