One big flaw

Jan 2017
1
Europe
#1
Some questions

Hi,

I am a Muslim and a seeker for truth. I have been comparing the Bahai Faith and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some time now.

Both are established in the world. But I think the Ahmadiyya is a larger in numbers and are more present in the society.

So my questions are:

1. If Bahai Faith accepts Mohammad as a Manifestation of God. We have to pay attention to his sayings the most, cause he was the most recent one in the chain of Manifestations.

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi and he got killed. The Mahdi is a pure Islamic figure, therefore we have to look at what is said about the Mahdi in Islam. But when we observe the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad regarding the Mahdi, we clearly see that the Mahdi will come and will live AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MESSIAH, which will be the retuning of Jesus and they both will meet. But the Bab did not meet Jesus. The Mahdi will come at a time when the Muslim Community will be ina a very week condition. So the Mahdis work is to revive the Islamic Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Founder of the Ahmadis, wrote 70 - 80 books in the defence of Islam and in trying to proove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran. So where did Bab do these works?

All the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran state, that the Mahdi and the Messiah will not create a new religion, but rather will "fight" for the revival of Islam.

2. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Final Law for all of mankind. It contains all topics, rules, points that are necessary for a human to achieve the highest moral and spiritual status and to create a communion with God. As Bahais say, that their religion is a new religion which covers the requirements of this particular time, I would like to know some new points of this religionl. Are there any new e.g. eating and drinking rules? Or are there any new laws regarding sexual intercourse, etc...?

What is the answer of the Bahais to this?
 
Last edited:
Nov 2015
279
France
#2
Hello ! Salam Aleykoum !

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi
Interesting fact : in his writings, the Gate refers to himself as the Qaim ! The word Mahdi is very rarely used in his writings, whereas he clearly claims to be the Qaim.

Now, I will let my colleagues answer to your questions, for I trust them more than myself when it comes to explaining such matters.

Best of luck.
 
Jun 2014
1,021
Wisconsin
#3
1. If Bahai Faith accepts Mohammad as a Manifestation of God. We have to pay attention to his sayings the most, cause he was the most recent one in the chain of Manifestations.
Indeed, I think it is very important to pay attention to the sayings of Muhammad, on that we can agree.

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi and he got killed. The Mahdi is a pure Islamic figure, therefore we have to look at what is said about the Mahdi in Islam.
I agree, but then we have a fundamental question that we must ask: According to which Islam?? I'll elaborate below:

But when we observe the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad regarding the Mahdi, we clearly see that the Mahdi will come and will live AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MESSIAH, which will be the retuning of Jesus and they both will meet. But the Bab did not meet Jesus. The Mahdi will come at a time when the Muslim Community will be ina a very week condition. So the Mahdis work is to revive the Islamic Faith.
All of these prophecies come from Hadith, which is where we probably differ in viewpoint.

It's also why I ask "according to which Islam??" earlier, as the Hadith accepted as true about the Mahdi by the Sunnis is different from that accepted by the Shia. And it even differs further within the differing sects within the Shia and Sunni branches.

Ultimately, though, I personally cannot find a way to reconcile the idea of Hadith itself with my own beliefs.

Like you're views on the Bab, I think the idea of Hadith has One Big Flaw as well, and that flaw is the Quran. The entire point of the Quran and of Muhammad's literacy campaign and efforts to teach people to read (like how he freed prisoners of war if they could teach three Muslims to read) had a specific goal in mind, and it's a goal that every Muslim and Baha'i agrees on. The purpose was so that there would be one record of the Word of God, that all peoples could read, thus avoiding the confusion and corruption of the past era in which the Word of God existed only in second-hand accounts of the Prophets and was tightly controlled by a literate class.

This is what made the Quran more than the Gospel, I think you'd agree, the fact that it is the firsthand account of the Prophet, rather than the secondhand account of what that Prophet said. No longer would mankind need to debate over who's secondhand account was more valid than another person's, as the Christians must do with their accounts of Jesus. That was the beauty of the Quran, everyone could reliably know it was the Word of God through Muhammad!!

Which is why I can't figure out how to accept the idea of the Hadith. The Quran was given to mankind to fix the problems that the early Christians had. It gave one, firsthand account of the scriptures, and thus Islam would not need any sort of Council of Nicene.

But Hadith is not the Quran, it is not the firsthand account of Muhammad's teachings that God has given us. The Hadith is a secondhand account of Muhammad's words. And thus, it is the subject of debates over which Hadiths are valid and which are invalid, among the Muslim community just as the Christians must debate which Gospels are correct (Was Jesus born in a cave or a manger??).

But if the Hadiths are valid, and God is expecting mankind to get their knowledge from the Quran and the Hadiths, then doesn't it have the exact same flaws as the early Christians had in trying to validate their own secondhand scriptures?? If mankind still has to debate over which secondhand account is better than the others, then what problem did the Quran solve?? Why would God give us a set of Laws clearly written down so there would be no confusion on one hand, and then on the other hand still expect us to figure out the rest of His Laws through secondhand accounts??

I personally believe the Quran is the perfect written Word of God. Which is why I simply cannot find a way to believe in the Hadiths, even the Hadiths I'd personally love to believe in (like the Hadith on how to treat noncombatants in war). If the Quran is perfect, as I have every reason to believe, there is no need for Hadith. If the Quran was given to us so that we would no longer need to rely on secondhand accounts about our Prophets, then God would not require us to continue to rely upon secondhand accounts.

So I can ultimately see why you see a flaw, if you can find a way to reconcile your own belief in the Quran with a belief in Hadith. But, personally, myself believing in the Quran's perfection, I don't consider any secondhand accounts something to consider, and thus the fact that secondhand accounts don't line up with the story of the Bab don't concern me.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Founder of the Ahmadis, wrote 70 - 80 books in the defence of Islam and in trying to proove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran. So where did Bab do these works?
The Bab wrote extensive commentaries on the Quran and its Surahs, his first writing even was such a commentary, on the Surah of Joseph. If you're fortunate enough to speak Arabic or Persian you may be able to track these down, though unfortunately not as many people are as eager as I am to translate these works into English.

All the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran state, that the Mahdi and the Messiah will not create a new religion, but rather will "fight" for the revival of Islam.
The Bab and Baha'u'llah did not create a new religion, in the Baha'i belief, but revived the religion of Muhammad. Just as Muhammad did not create a new religion, but revived the religion of Jesus. Just as Jesus did not create a new religion, but revived the religion of the Prophets that came before him, etc. etc.

The fact that we as humans tend to be flawed and try to categorize these things as "different religions" when they are, in fact, all part of the same Unified Religion of mankind, doesn't change the fact that every Prophet has billed their message as being a part of the same religion.

2. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Final Law for all of mankind. It contains all topics, rules, points that are necessary for a human to achieve the highest moral and spiritual status and to create a communion with God.
Indeed!! Which is, again, a reason I cannot find a way to imagine that Hadith contain any truths. (Not to sound like a broken record), but if the Quran was the final Law, how could any Hadith be valid?? It's just something I've never understood about Muslim belief, I'm afraid.

As Bahais say, that their religion is a new religion which covers the requirements of this particular time, I would like to know some new points of this religionl. Are there any new e.g. eating and drinking rules? Or are there any new laws regarding sexual intercourse, etc...?
Some new and some old. Anything that "dulls the mind" is now forbidden, not just alcohol. Drugs that speed up the mind like coffee still appear to be permitted, though. As for intercourse, the only new rule I can think of is that the limit on wives is restricted from four to two, and even then there is an extremely high standard for treating the wives justly if one is to have two wives (to the point where some Baha'is speculate that it would be impossible). The practice of keeping young boys dressed as girls as sex slaves (unfortunately not uncommon in Persia and (to this day) Afghanistan) is explicitly forbidden, though technically that was forbidden under Muhammad's Law, it still needed to be explicitly stated for how flagrantly that law is violated. There's some new hygiene laws that cover things that did not exist at the time of Muhammad and thus could not be banned (like Persian bathhouses) and things that would have been hard for people in the medieval era to accomplish (like bathing once a day, or showering once a week). Warfare is explicitly forbidden now, whereas it was merely restricted to necessary circumstances in Muhammad's time.

These are just what I can recall off of the top of my head, the full list of laws is pretty much found in the book the Kitab-i-Aqdas, which you can read here.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2013
526
Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
#4
Hi,

I am a Muslim and a seeker for truth. I have been comparing the Bahai Faith and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some time now.

Both are established in the world. But I think the Ahmadiyya is a larger in numbers and are more present in the society.

So my questions are:

1. If Bahai Faith accepts Mohammad as a Manifestation of God. We have to pay attention to his sayings the most, cause he was the most recent one in the chain of Manifestations.

The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi and he got killed. The Mahdi is a pure Islamic figure, therefore we have to look at what is said about the Mahdi in Islam. But when we observe the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad regarding the Mahdi, we clearly see that the Mahdi will come and will live AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MESSIAH, which will be the retuning of Jesus and they both will meet. But the Bab did not meet Jesus. The Mahdi will come at a time when the Muslim Community will be ina a very week condition. So the Mahdis work is to revive the Islamic Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Founder of the Ahmadis, wrote 70 - 80 books in the defence of Islam and in trying to proove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran. So where did Bab do these works?

All the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and the Holy Quran state, that the Mahdi and the Messiah will not create a new religion, but rather will "fight" for the revival of Islam.

2. We Muslims believe that the Quran is the Final Law for all of mankind. It contains all topics, rules, points that are necessary for a human to achieve the highest moral and spiritual status and to create a communion with God. As Bahais say, that their religion is a new religion which covers the requirements of this particular time, I would like to know some new points of this religionl. Are there any new e.g. eating and drinking rules? Or are there any new laws regarding sexual intercourse, etc...?

What is the answer of the Bahais to this?
Greetings!

1. The return of Prophets revealed in the Holy books are a spiritual reality. It is not a return of the same body that existed 1000 or 2000 years ago, it is a return of the spiritual reality. Therefore, the Bab is the Mahdi and also the Qaim if Shi'ih Islam, and He was born to a woman and grew to age 25 until His reality was fully revealed. Likewise Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus. They both were on Earth at the same time and met in spirit, so the prophesy of Islam is fulfilled by both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

2. The Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet of the cycle which began with Adam, and included Prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. This great cycle ended with the Prophet Muhammad, and the Holy books including both the Bible and the Qur'an describe the end of the world and the Resurrection which comes after.

The reality is that this has already come to pass, the old religious system, the old social system, science, knowledge and really everything that relates to the world as it has been for 6000 years has totally changed in just the past 150 years. The resurrection means a new spiritual life which comes from a new Revelation from God.
 
May 2013
1,773
forest falls california
#5
What is the answer of the Bahais to this?

The sun rises, sheds light for a day, then disappears.
If we say the sun will rise again, it is the same sun which rises, but we call it another day.

The Spiritul Sun rises from age to age. Its light is the religion of Allah, God, the Great Spirit.

This Sun rose at the time of Abraham, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Moses, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Jesus, and again at the time of Muhammad, Praise be unto Him, and to all the Prophets. They shed Their Light, and we protest, saying: You are not the Sun!!

The Bab was a Great Light, the Return of the Spiritual Sun. He lived at the same time as Baha'u'llah.

The Holy Quran speaks of the Summoner, Who will summon the people to Allah on the Day of Judgement, when mankind shall stand before Allah.
This is that Day. We have been summoned.

Some of us testify to the Truth of the Day of Judgement.
Some of us are killed or imprisoned for doing so, rather than recanting our belief that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning.

Allah created us with our own eyes, our own mind, and gave us ears to hear His Words and hearts to understand. The "verses" are the proofs. This was true at the time of the Revelation of the Quran. It is true for the words of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Muhammad said: "Produce a Surah like it." For 1260 years no one could accomplish this. The the Bab appeared and accomplished this, revealing Holy verses at astonishing rate, without pause or thought. No one could refute His verses, so they killed Him to silence Him.

But, as you said, the Mahdi (or Qaim) was to appear at the time of the Return of Jesus, as His contemporary, and this is exactly what happened. The Bab was born in 1819 on the 1st day of Muharram, and Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 on the 2nd day of Muharram.

There are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim traditions, but it is the "verses" which are the proofs, but only for those who have eyes to see. Study the verses.

Allah'u'Abha
 
Oct 2011
4,213
Quilimari,Chile
#6
hello dear somemuslim.
Wonderful to see you here. I trust you will think deeply upon responses given you here, I am an old man, if you sat and talked with me face to face I would enjoy the dialog, but in a written form I would become lost.
Dear Friend only through deep meditation and prayer will you discover the truth.
blessings to you
bill
 
Sep 2012
104
Sharjah
#7
Dear Walrus:

I went through your reply and went through it again. I feel it is flawed fo rthe following reasons.

When you ask the question which Islam, the answer has to be the Shiite Islam because the Bab and Bahaullah were all Shiites in their previous avataar - before they made their respective claims. Their teachers were Shiiite - Sayyed Kazim Rashti and Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai. They were all Shiites.

Shiite Islam has a very rich treasure trove of Hadith. Yes, there are false traditions, but there is an scientific way of establishing their veracity - which is you compare them to the Quran.

I think Bahais deny Hadith - traditions because if they referred to Shiite traditions, there would be foundation of the Bahai Faith. the Quran and traditions both are unanimous in their view that there is no Prophet, no messenger and no book, no religion after Islam.

Happy to discuss.

Regards
Imran
 
Sep 2012
104
Sharjah
#8
The sun rises, sheds light for a day, then disappears.
If we say the sun will rise again, it is the same sun which rises, but we call it another day.

The Spiritul Sun rises from age to age. Its light is the religion of Allah, God, the Great Spirit.

This Sun rose at the time of Abraham, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Moses, and set for awhile.
This Sun rose at the time of Jesus, and again at the time of Muhammad, Praise be unto Him, and to all the Prophets. They shed Their Light, and we protest, saying: You are not the Sun!!

The Bab was a Great Light, the Return of the Spiritual Sun. He lived at the same time as Baha'u'llah.

The Holy Quran speaks of the Summoner, Who will summon the people to Allah on the Day of Judgement, when mankind shall stand before Allah.
This is that Day. We have been summoned.

Some of us testify to the Truth of the Day of Judgement.
Some of us are killed or imprisoned for doing so, rather than recanting our belief that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Reckoning.

Allah created us with our own eyes, our own mind, and gave us ears to hear His Words and hearts to understand. The "verses" are the proofs. This was true at the time of the Revelation of the Quran. It is true for the words of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Muhammad said: "Produce a Surah like it." For 1260 years no one could accomplish this. The the Bab appeared and accomplished this, revealing Holy verses at astonishing rate, without pause or thought. No one could refute His verses, so they killed Him to silence Him.

But, as you said, the Mahdi (or Qaim) was to appear at the time of the Return of Jesus, as His contemporary, and this is exactly what happened. The Bab was born in 1819 on the 1st day of Muharram, and Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 on the 2nd day of Muharram.

There are hundreds of prophecies fulfilled from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim traditions, but it is the "verses" which are the proofs, but only for those who have eyes to see. Study the verses.

Allah'u'Abha
Dear Dale, all your arguments are conjecture. I would love to see if the Bab himself used any of these arguments to make his claim. These arguments are the work of "intellectuals"

In fact even the earlier day revelations of the Bab including those in Qayyamul Asma and Sahifae Adaliyah contradict the claims of the Bahai Faith regarding the Bab.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
Sep 2012
104
Sharjah
#9
Greetings!

1. The return of Prophets revealed in the Holy books are a spiritual reality. It is not a return of the same body that existed 1000 or 2000 years ago, it is a return of the spiritual reality. Therefore, the Bab is the Mahdi and also the Qaim if Shi'ih Islam, and He was born to a woman and grew to age 25 until His reality was fully revealed. Likewise Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus. They both were on Earth at the same time and met in spirit, so the prophesy of Islam is fulfilled by both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

2. The Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet of the cycle which began with Adam, and included Prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. This great cycle ended with the Prophet Muhammad, and the Holy books including both the Bible and the Qur'an describe the end of the world and the Resurrection which comes after.

The reality is that this has already come to pass, the old religious system, the old social system, science, knowledge and really everything that relates to the world as it has been for 6000 years has totally changed in just the past 150 years. The resurrection means a new spiritual life which comes from a new Revelation from God.
Dear JCC:

Do we have any documented proof for the above? For any of the above?

Regards
Imran
 
Mar 2013
526
Edwardsville, Illinois, USA
#10
Dear JCC:

Do we have any documented proof for the above? For any of the above?

Regards
Imran
You may read The Kitab-i-Iqan in Farsi کتاب ایقان | کتابخانهٔ مراجع بهائی
Or English
The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá

Consider this: how can God (Allah) be be the infinitely powerful Creator if all Revelation stops after one Prophet (Muhammad, PBUH)? During the time of Muhammad, the Jews said that there can be no Revelation after Moses, until the Messiah comes, because "God's hand is chained" The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The Jewish and Christian clergy were not idolatrous, they were people of the book, but the problem was they blindly held on to tradition, believing only what the religious leaders said, and so they missed out on the revelation of Muhammad. Christians read in the Gospel that "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will not pass away" and they believe this meant that there could not be a Prophet after Jesus. They are mistaken. Likewise, if Muslims say Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets and this means God is not capable of sending another they are doing the same thing that the Jewish and Christian people did.

As far as proof, look at the world, look at all the changes that have happened just in the last 200 years, everything is different. People may try to continue as they had in the past, but it doesn't work well, it becomes increasingly difficult to try to enforce the old religious laws, it produces too much conflict in a world that is becoming blended culturally and interdependent.

My best wishes to you in your search,
JCC.
 
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