One big flaw

Jun 2014
1,071
Wisconsin
#11
Shiite Islam has a very rich treasure trove of Hadith. Yes, there are false traditions, but there is an scientific way of establishing their veracity - which is you compare them to the Quran.
The only thing that can be established by comparing Hadith to the Quran is whether the Quran confirms the Hadith, denies the Hadith, or says nothing on the same subject as the Hadith.

Which creates a problem. If the Quran says nothing on the subject of the Hadith you cannot verify it by comparing it to the Quran.

For example: There is a Hadith that states an angel will not enter any home that has a dog in it.

The Quran does not say that an angel will refuse to enter a home with a dog, but the Quran also doesn't say that an angel will enter a home with a dog.

Since the Quran says nothing one way or the other on the subject, then how on earth would we use the Quran to rule on its authenticity, one way or the other??

Also, if the Hadith can all be verified by the Quran, then I have a very simple question: Why do we even need Hadith then??

If the Quran can verify or disprove all Hadith, shouldn't the Quran be sufficient??

I think Bahais deny Hadith...
Hold on there!! No, Baha'is do not deny Hadith. I personally do not see any logic in Hadith. There are many Baha'is, on this very forum, even, who will quote from Hadiths and believe in them. It's not a Baha'i opinion, it is my personal one, an opinion I held before becoming Baha'i, and I don't pretend it is anything more than my personal view. Please do not mistake it as anything more than that!!

Hadith still just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm afraid until my specific concerns are addressed, it will not make sense to me. The beauty of the Quran is that it is the perfect word of God, which I assume is a statement you agree with. Because of the Quran and Muhammad's literacy campaign, there was no corruption within it, like the Tahrif you could find in Jewish or Christian Scriptures, which due to their age and the limitations of their era, suffered from being secondhand or thirdhand accounts of the people who witnessed the Prophets, rather than the direct Word of God through the Prophet themselves.

Anyone who's played a game of "telephone" where people in a line whisper a message in one another's ear and observe how different the message at the end is from the initial one can understand why the secondhand recordings of the Gospel weren't as great a thing as the direct Word of God as written.

The Quran is free of the concept of Tahrif, which is why it is so great!! My problem with the Hadith, though, is that they have the very same faults as a game of telephone, it is a secondhand account, and not the direct Word of God through Muhammad. Hadith can either be confirmed or rebuked by Quranic verse, in which case the Hadith is unnecessary, as the Quran communicates the exact same message, or the subject the Hadith covers is NOT mentioned in the Quran, cannot be verified, and suffers from Tahrif.

So every time I ponder the Hadith, I get to the same question on the subject:

Why would God solve the problem of Tahrif with the Quran, only to reintroduce the problem of Tahrif with Hadith??

Since it would not make sense for God to do this, I can only logically conclude that the Quran is indeed perfect, and Hadiths are not an intended part of the dispensation.

Unfortunately, until the Problem of Tahrif can be solved, I can't put trust in Hadith.

the Quran and traditions both are unanimous in their view that there is no Prophet, no messenger and no book,
I've already explained my views on Hadith, and as far as I know, the Quran's statement interpreted commonly is "there is no Prophet after Muhammad" is merely 33:40:

Quran 33:40 said:
Muhammad is not the father of one of your men, but the Messenger of God and seal of the prophets. And ever is God, of all things, Knowing.
Specifically he is the Khatam an-Nabiyyin. My knowledge of Arabic is not great, so anyone more knowledgeable on the language may feel free to correct or clarify.

Khatam in modern usage can mean "Last" or "Seal". The usage of "khatam" as "last" and synonymous with "akhir" appears to have emerged prior to the introduction of the Quran based on interpretations of 33:40. We can see this in how the this word is used in the Quran, every other verse where "khatam" appears being specifically the word "Seal" and never, from context, possible to interpret as "last", instead other words used for "last" throughout the rest of the Quran. The complete use of "khatam" in the Quran is below:

Quran 2:7 said:
God has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
Quran 6:46 said:
Say, "Have you considered: if God should take away your hearing and your sight and set a seal upon your hearts, which deity other than God could bring them (back) to you?" Look how we diversify the verses; then they (still) turn away.
Quran 36:65 said:
That Day, We will seal over their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will testify about what they used to earn.
Quran 42:24 said:
Or do they say, "He has invented about God a lie"? But if God willed, He could seal over your heart. And Allah eliminates falsehood and establishes the truth by His words. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.
Quran 83:25 said:
They will be given to drink (pure) wine (which was) sealed.
So from the above it is rather clear that, based on the language with which the Quran used, the appearance of "khatam" in the phrase "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" is best translated as "Seal of the Prophets" rather than "Last of the Prophets", as "khatam" is used several times elsewhere in the Quran to mean "seal" and never else used to mean "last", which seems to indicate that the understanding of "khatam" as being synonymous with "akhir" coming later, probably based on the common interpretation of the title "Seal of the Prophets."

Also, consider the specific wording of 6:46, which implies that That Which God Seals Only God May Unseal, which in turn indicates that God can Unseal what he has Sealed.

Also of note, according to scholars I have read on the subject, the status of "Seal of the Prophets" indicates that Muhammad's dispensation will rule until the Day of Qiyamah (Resurrection).

This is a rather important distinction to noting the Baha'i understanding of things, as we believe that the Day of Qiyamah has already passed. The seal is thus unsealed.

no religion after Islam.
Indeed. I agree. There is no religion after Submission to God. The Quran makes it also clear there is no religion that predates Submission to God. It was the first religion and is the last religion. It is the religion of Abraham, yourself, and myself.
 
Sep 2010
1,297
Canada
#12
For example: There is a Hadith that states an angel will not enter any home that has a dog in it.

The Quran does not say that an angel will refuse to enter a home with a dog, but the Quran also doesn't say that an angel will enter a home with a dog.
.
Indeed that Hadith is not literally compatible with Quran. But spiritually it is compatible and has parallel with Quranic verses.

In some verses of Quran, Dog is an allusion to false Religious Leaders. Angels are 'heavenly confirmations'. So, its figurative meaning is compatible with Quran. places that are lead by false religious leaders, do not receive confirmations. It is like the Hadith that says, the Sun rises from its west, which literally is not in Quran, but nevertheless is a true Hadith, because the Sun is Qaim, and West are successors of Muhammad who are from lineage of the Prophet.
 
Jun 2014
1,071
Wisconsin
#13
Indeed that Hadith is not literally compatible with Quran. But spiritually it is compatible and has parallel with Quranic verses.

In some verses of Quran, Dog is an allusion to false Religious Leaders. Angels are 'heavenly confirmations'. So, its figurative meaning is compatible with Quran. places that are lead by false religious leaders, do not receive confirmations. It is like the Hadith that says, the Sun rises from its west, which literally is not in Quran, but nevertheless is a true Hadith, because the Sun is Qaim, and West are successors of Muhammad who are from lineage of the Prophet.
Sure, but, that doesn't really handle the Tahrif problem with Hadiths. Their either confirmed by what the Quran says, rebuffed by what it says, or in a limbo-state with no really good way to validate them.
 
Sep 2010
1,297
Canada
#14
Sure, but, that doesn't really handle the Tahrif problem with Hadiths. Their either confirmed by what the Quran says, rebuffed by what it says, or in a limbo-state with no really good way to validate them.
It all has to do with interpretations of the word of God. The idea is identical with Bahai teachings.
In Bahai Faith, Abdulbaha was appointed to do the interpretations of the Words of Bahaullah.

In the same way, in Islam, Imams were appointed for infallible interpretations of Quran, because Quran says, only those who are well-grounded in knowledge know its interpretation. Then Quran says that, the People of the House of Muhammad are without Sin. Hence the Imams of Shia said that they are the appointed well-grounded in knowledge that God has appointed, and talked about in Quran.


So, the Muslims often disagree about interpretations of verses of Quran, because each person have a different opinion. Their problem were solved if, they refer to the Hadithes from Imams, that interpreted the Quran. Indeed most of the verses of Quran were interpreted by Imams, and are in the recorded traditions, and if Muslims used those, they would not become divided so much. The problem is, how does one know, if a particular hadith of Imam, is authentic. They, themselves have said that, if someone attributes a Hadith to us, then, if there is witness and evidence for it in the sayings of prophet Muhammad, OR in the verses of Quran, then you are to accept it, otherwise reject it. Muhammad also said, accept my Hadithes if the do not contradict with Quran, and are compatible with Quran. If it contradicts then reject it. From my personal experience, this method that They Themselves have said works every time, as i have also noticed everytime I followed their instructions, and a Hadith was validated, by Islamic method, it was also compatible with the Bahai Writings.
Essentially, during the period of Islam, and before the Bahai faith, the Muslims must have used interpretations of the Imams, and if there was no way to recognize true Hadithes of Imams, i would say, the Religion of God would have not been completed and would have failed, because there must have been a way to know the interpretations of Quran correctly.

However, Muslims have not used this method to validate the Hadithes. Instead they came up with their own invented way, of classification of Hadithes as weak to Strong. This classification is often based on the Chains of narrators. If they thought the narrators are trustworthy and confirms their view, they said its strong. If they did not like a person in the chain, they said its weak. If the Hadith is in Shia sources, Sunnis did not accept it, and if the Hadith is in Sunni sources, shia sect did not accept it.
 
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Sep 2010
1,297
Canada
#15
Here is an example how the Muslims differ in interpretation of Quran. For example here is various translation of Quran 17:71,:

M. Pickthall:

On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.


Shakir:

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985):

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.


Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar :

On a Day when We will call to every clan with their leader, then, whoever was given his book in his right hand, those will recite their book and they will not be wronged in the least.



So, the various Muslims translators based on their imaginations, provided a different translation.
But if they had referred to the interpretations of Imam Sadiq, it would have been clear what this verse is about:



In Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the day when We will call every nation with their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


So, according to Imam Sadiq that verse is about Imam Qaim. But now we have to have another evidence from Prophet or Quran to validate the Authenticity of the Hadith of Sadiq. Here is a Hadith from Muhammad, as a witness:


With regards to this verse, it is recorded in the Book Mizanul Hikmat, In a tradition attributed to Prophet Muhammad, that He said, “He shall call all people to the Imam of their age with Book of God, and tradition of their prophet”


So, because a tradition from Imam, has a witness from sayings of Muhammad, Muslims are to accept that this verse is about Qaim, the Imam of Age who comes with the Book of God. Its not about personal records of deeds and other fancies that people imagined. After all who can in Islam claim he understands Quran better than Imam Sadiq and Muhammad? And this is how islam went wrong!
 
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Jun 2014
1,071
Wisconsin
#16
They, themselves have said that, if someone attributes a Hadith to us, then, if there is witness and evidence for it in the sayings of prophet Muhammad, OR in the verses of Quran, then you are to accept it, otherwise reject it. Muhammad also said, accept my Hadithes if the do not contradict with Quran, and are compatible with Quran. If it contradicts then reject it.
Interesting.

Do you have a source on where this methodology comes from?? I don't recall reading any such sayings in the Quran.
 
Sep 2010
1,297
Canada
#17
Interesting.

Do you have a source on where this methodology comes from?? I don't recall reading any such sayings in the Quran.
Yes, it is in Recorded Traditions from Imams and Muhammad in the Book al-kafi, Vol 1. Page 69.
Abdulbaha asked a Bahai scholar, named Sadrul sodouri Hamidani, to write a book, to prove that prophecies of Qaim is fulfilled with manifestation of the Bab and Bahaullah. Sadrul sodour, humbly accepted Abdulbaha's request. This person, used to be exceptionally knowledgeable Shia Scholar who became a Bahai. In the beginning of the Chapter of his book, he quoted these traditions, and used them as a method throughout his book.



When Bahaullah was writing the Book of Iqan, to explain that the new Revelation and Manifestation, is the fulfilment of the Prophecies of Islam, He quoted both from Quran, as well as Recorded Traditions. So, when Bahaullah has done it in this manner, this is how Bahaullah taught us. For example, Bahaullah wrote in Iqan:

"....the Imáms, those unquenchable lights of divine guidance, have interpreted the verse: “What can such expect but that God should come down to them
overshadowed with clouds,” (2:210)—a sign which they have unquestionably regarded as one of the features of the Day of Resurrection—as referring to the Qá’im and His manifestation.""

What we notice here that Bahaullah, is referring them, to how Imams interpreted that verse. So, I follow the same method Bahaullah did.

Infact, Shia Imam, Bagher, with regards to the verse 2:210, has said, it denotes that Mahdi comes to Iraq. Which clearly fulfilled, when Bahaullah came to Iraq.
 
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Sep 2010
1,297
Canada
#18
These are recorded in the book al-Kafi:

Imam Sadiq said: "If they narrated to you a Hadith and you find a witness for it in the Book of God or in Hadith of the holy Prophet (it is acceptable), otherwise, you attribute it to the narrator (meaning, that hadith is not from us, thus reject it)."


"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement.’"

abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said the following:
"The holy Prophet once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makkah) saying, "O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith you must see if it agrees with the holy book of Allah then know that I have said it but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah then know that I have not said it."

"The holy Prophet (s.a.) said: "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it."
 
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May 2013
1,786
forest falls california
#19
Conjecture

Dear Dale, all your arguments are conjecture. I would love to see if the Bab himself used any of these arguments to make his claim. These arguments are the work of "intellectuals"

In fact even the earlier day revelations of the Bab including those in Qayyamul Asma and Sahifae Adaliyah contradict the claims of the Bahai Faith regarding the Bab.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
Imran,
Thank you for your honest thoughts. Are there any "proofs" of the appearance of Muhammad which are not "conjecture"? Are not the arguments for the Quran the work of "intellectuals"?

. So here is the thing. If our spiritual eyes are mature, they are able to recognize the Light emanating from the Heaven of the Quran, as well as the Gospels, and the Bayan, also the Kitab-i-Iqan, etc.

. So in this sense, as "The verses as proofs" is the weight of the argument, whether of the validity of the Quran or the Bayan or the Iqan, it transcends mere intelectual assertions.

. Two souls, both in the presence of Jesus, saw the same Prophet and listened to His Words. One crucified Him, while the other knelt before Him, crying: My Lord and My God.

. In the Day of Muhammad (PBUH), there were those who pelted Him with stones and insults, and those who believed. The Holy Quran is filled with warnings from the Warner, of the coming of the Day of Judgement.

. So respectfully, I put to you, that I am ready to stand before the Lord of the Day of Judgement and declare the "verses as proof" of the Divinity of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
 
May 2013
1,786
forest falls california
#20
verses as proof... the Bab

Hi,

I am a Muslim and a seeker for truth. I have been comparing the Bahai Faith and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community for some time now.

. As to the "verses as proof", here is something from the Bab:

. "THERE is no doubt that the Almighty hath sent down these verses unto Him [the Báb], even as He sent down unto the Apostle of God. Indeed no less than a hundred thousand verses similar to these have already been disseminated among the people, not to mention His Epistles, His Prayers or His learned and philosophical treatises. He revealeth no less than a thousand verses within the space of five hours. He reciteth verses at a speed consonant with the capacity of His amanuensis to set them down. Thus, it may well be considered that if from the inception of this Revelation until now He had been left unhindered, how vast then would have been the volume of writings disseminated from His pen.
If ye contend that these verses cannot, of themselves, be regarded as a proof, scan the pages of the Qur’án. If God hath established therein any evidence other than the revealed verses to demonstrate the validity of the prophethood of His Apostle—may the blessings of God rest upon Him—ye may then have your scruples about Him…

. Concerning the sufficiency of the Book as a proof, God hath revealed: ‘Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto Thee the Book to be recited to them? In this verily is a mercy and a warning to those who believe.’ 1 When God hath testified that the Book is a sufficient testimony, as is affirmed in the text, how can one dispute this truth by saying that the Book in itself is not a conclusive proof?"
 

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