Reincarnation

Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#81
There is an apparent contradiction. You assume that suffering is not merciful or kind because of how you interpret suffering. However, one reason for suffering is that it helps us develop spiritually, and even if we cannot see the effect in this world we will realize it in the next world.
For a person to grow spiritually, healthy emotions and positive thinking are prerequisites. If a young girl is repeatedly raped and murdered as it has happened in the case of Yazidi girls in Iraq, how does that suffering help that girl grow spiritually. Have you ever worked with rape victims? Do you understand what these girls go through when they are captured as slaves, their male family members are killed in front of them and then they are repeatedly raped. You call it fate and predestination ordained by a merciful God who will help the rape victim develop spiritually in a non-physical world after getting her repeatedly raped in the physical world. Why would a God so cruel in the physical world be merciful in the non-physical world? Makes no sense at all.

As such we only see half of the picture since we do you know what awaits souls in the next world.
And the irony is that you can't explain the half-picture you see but you are able to explain the details of the other half you don't see.

You are free to believe that if you want to because you have free will. I believe in karma but I do not believe in reincarnation.
That's like saying that you believe in the day but not in the night. Reincarnation follows karma and karma follow reincarnation. The way to put an end to karma is to purify the heart and perfect the love for God. When that happens God wipes away the karma and the soul is free. Why is love so important? It is because God created man for love. It is truth that Bahaullah also asserted.

Coming back to this world to suffer all over again does not resolve anything because everyone suffers in this world, since that is the nature of the material world.
I thought you said above that suffering helps us develop spiritually. So which one is it?

The only possibility of being free of suffering is to live in the spiritual world, where there will be no more suffering for those who were true believers, only joy and gladness.
Yeah right. Hitler was a Christian and could have claimed to be a true believer. Many Catholic priests that sexually abused children in the churches could claim to be true believers in Jesus. The Muslims that persecuted Bahaullah could claim to be true believers punishing a false prophet. Every religious person can claim to be a true believer even if their heart is impure. Only God is the perfect judge of the condition of our hearts. Self-certification does not work even in the physical world, leave alone in the spiritual realms where God is the ultimate judge. The question is what does God do when the human heart is not good enough at death in God's judgement. Does God give the soul another chance, or does he condemn the soul to hell forever. What if the soul has unfulfilled desires that can be satisfied only on earth. For example, John McCain died without fulfilling his desire to become the U.S President and since the U.S exists only on earth, what happens to his desire?

There is no answer to that except that the fate and predestination of people differ. I do not pretend to know why because I cannot know. Apparently you think you know what nobody else knows, why good people suffer through no fault of their own.
If fate and predestination of people differ, it follows that some people are predestined by God to commit crimes and others are predestined by God to suffer crimes. Then why punish the criminals. I am sure the Bahai faith like every religion prohibits committing crimes and perhaps supports punishments to unrepentant criminals. Why interfere with God's plans for criminals and stop them from committing crimes. Wouldn't that be going against will of God?

What other people believe owing to a misinterpretation of their scriptures is a red herring. I do not have blind faith; I have a reason-based faith which is based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote.
Oh really! What others believe is a misinterpretation of scriptures. But what you believe is a perfect understanding of scriptures. Where does Bahaullah teach to practice such double standards.



“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

That last sentence says nothing about coming back to this world. It means they will go to hell, which is a state of the soul that is far from God and instead sinks into the depths of self and passion.
self and passion refer to incarnation in a body. self is by definition a reference to personality and person. passion cannot be experienced without a human mind and body.

That Kingdom must be pretty empty. :rolleyes:

That sounds a bit like the Christian belief that only “certain Christians” will get to heaven.
I do not know if it is empty. Do not recall being there. No one is suggesting that only people of certain religion will go there. Any qualified soul can go there and the qualification is the purity of heart of which God alone is the ultimate judge.

On this I can agree with you. Suffering seems to be random, and it makes no sense. I post to atheists day and night, so I constantly have to address this issue of why an omnipotent God would allow so much suffering. I hardly ever post to believers, but when I do they just write off suffering as if it does not exist because they have to cover for their loving God. I am glad to see another believer who has some compassion, they are pretty rare. Most atheists have more compassion than most believers, sad to say.
Suffering will make sense through karma and reincarnation. You cannot explain suffering rationally and it makes no sense to you because you reject reincarnation.
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#82
Abdu’l-Baha did not say anything about practicing meditation; he said “the faculty of meditation.” That means the ability to meditate, an ability other animals do not possess.
You don't read properly. Read again the whole page and try to understand the importance of practicing meditation that Abdul Baha is emphasizing on. Did you read this? It is as clear as day light.

Meditation is the key for opening the doors of mysteries. In that state man abstracts himself: in that state man withdraws himself from all outside objects; in that subjective mood he is immersed in the ocean of spiritual life and can unfold the secrets of things-in-themselves. To illustrate this, think of man as endowed with two kinds of sight; when the power of insight is being used the outward power of vision does not see. - Abdul Baha
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#83
Neither observation, nor intellectual analysis or your ratio are faultless. The logical conclusion is, that conclusions that drawns from these methods are also not faultless.
There is nothing faulty about observing that innocent children are being shot dead in American schools. There is nothing faulty about observing that innocent children are being sexually abused by priests in Christian churches. There is nothing faulty about observing that innocent children are starving to death in Africa. There is nothing faulty about observing that innocent girls have been raped by ISIS jihadis. There is nothing faulty about observing that innocent Bahai are being persecuted in Iran. There is nothing faulty about observing that innocent Buddhists are being persecuted in Tibet. If you cannot explain why God allows these crimes to happen, there is something faulty about your own understanding of God's laws.
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#84
That's a good point. Only people think about such details: People search for a perfect system, because they know, that they are not perfect.
Man has three facets to his existence - body, mind and soul. The body is the chariot for spiritual progress, the mind is the reins used to control the chariot and the soul is the passenger. Hinduism offers detailed information to understand all three facets of human existence. The most basic relate to the body and since Trailblazer could not answer spiritual questions, I thought I will start with the most basic.

That is a big problem for the Ego of human species. So people need knowledge about unimportant details to compensate their lack of perfection and knowledge. If a revelation tell you why you have 5 fingers, but have no answers about the needs of the time, then it is a hint that this system have developed over the years and created/changed by man.
Why would you think Hinduism has no answers for the needs of time. You obviously have not studied Hinduism because you have been ignorantly arguing that the Vedas have no reference to reincarnation. It looks like you are making the same mistake again.

Because facts about biological aspects could be known by man trough science, but the destination of the soul and ethical knowledge cannot be found by science.
Hindus were the first to develop a scientific method for spiritual progress and that was called yoga/meditation. Even today millions of Westerners turn to Hindu avatars and Gurus for learning yoga and meditation because Christianity and Judaism do not offer mediation and yoga to have a direct and personal experience of God. Even the Bahai faith does not offer any specific meditation techniques. So your comment that soul knowledge cannot be scientifically found is pure ignorance. Try yoga and meditation and you shall realize how ignorant you are.

If a system gives you details about nonsense but not about the big answers concerning needs of the time, then it is obvious that it is created by man.
To understand your body is not nonsense because your body is the instrument to practice your religion. It is quite nonsensical to say that if a religion explains why we have 5 fingers, then it must be created by man.

People who explore the Baha'i Faith with an open heart can understand this point, that the revelation of Baha'u'llah gives us the information, that working together for the union of mankind is more important than theological details.
Universal brotherhood is only possible under the Fatherhood of God. Unless people realize through experience that God is their common Father or Creator instead of simply believing, no brotherhood is possible. You don't have to go far. Just look at the Bahai Faith. See how all the male family members of Bahaullah's family and his second and third wives were expelled from Bahai faith by the time Shoghi Effendi passed way. So much for brotherhood. That looks more like a power struggle than union of mankind. A religion that could not unite the family of Bahaullah will never unite the entire mankind. It is just a pipe dream you have. Keep dreaming!


This discussion is in some ways a little bit strange. In the same sense could the Church today say: "Well, Jesus tells nothing about the Trinity, so it seems that he has no knowledge about the world and not the perfect revelation." But the truth is, that the Trinity is a man-created concept that came many hundred of years after Jesus.
Jesus talked about Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible which was later called as Trinity. Jesus did not use the word Trinity but that does mean Father, Son and Holy Spirit are unreal. Bahaullah actually acknowledged Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the "Gems of Divine Mysteries" and said that these spiritual mysteries were not understood by even the wisest men to paraphrase his words.

And in the same way there come religions who say "Hey, we have more knowledge". But the truth is, that often these religions have no proof that this knowledge is not created by man. Their origin and history lies in darkness and their scriptures were developed by man/priests/brahmana cast to preservate their social-political supremacy.
The fact that Hinduism stood the test of time in itself is a proof of it's greatness. Many baby religions and civilizations have come and gone but Hinduism has stood like a rock. The Greek, Roman and Babylonian religions and civilizations which were once India's contemporaries are all gone now. For those who are interested, the spiritual truths in Hindu scriptures can be personally verified through meditation, yoga and expansion of consciousness. People like you who parrot the ignorance of Indologists are not qualified to comment on Hinduism. You want proof that Hindu scriptures were not created by man. Can you offer proof that Bahaullah is a manifestation of God?
 
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Aug 2019
21
Berlin
#85
Unfortunately you are so full of ignorance, a further communication makes no sense because you are repeating only yourself. Some days before I tell you how it can be that people are living under bad circumstances, that includes crime and other things. If you don’t have realize that our senses (body and mind) are not faultless, then you should meditate some weeks. The knowledge that our senses and our mind are not faultless, is a common point of view between Baha’i and Hinduism. Also I tell you that every Baha’i held a mantra meditation in the morning on the Greatest Name of God. Also you stated, that I have no experience in meditation and yoga. That’s interesting, we never met before. I am practising meditation since some years. So where is your problem? That I forget that in the Vedas in reincarnation mentioned, yes it was my mistake. It was some years before that I read the Rig-Veda, so I have forget the mentioned verse. A little mistake by me. Not more. For me, it’s not a problem. In the last 25 years I often met people like you, people who fight for their own religion, who have the irrational belief that their religion ist he oldest one, the last, the authentical, and that every thing that they belief is logically. I am sorry, but if someone haven’t learned to hear what other people say, then there will no future in the discussion.
 
Feb 2019
197
Chicago
#86
Unfortunately you are so full of ignorance, a further communication makes no sense because you are repeating only yourself. Some days before I tell you how it can be that people are living under bad circumstances, that includes crime and other things. If you don’t have realize that our senses (body and mind) are not faultless, then you should meditate some weeks. The knowledge that our senses and our mind are not faultless, is a common point of view between Baha’i and Hinduism. Also I tell you that every Baha’i held a mantra meditation in the morning on the Greatest Name of God. Also you stated, that I have no experience in meditation and yoga. That’s interesting, we never met before. I am practising meditation since some years. So where is your problem? That I forget that in the Vedas in reincarnation mentioned, yes it was my mistake. It was some years before that I read the Rig-Veda, so I have forget the mentioned verse. A little mistake by me. Not more. For me, it’s not a problem. In the last 25 years I often met people like you, people who fight for their own religion, who have the irrational belief that their religion ist he oldest one, the last, the authentical, and that every thing that they belief is logically. I am sorry, but if someone haven’t learned to hear what other people say, then there will no future in the discussion.
There is nothing I said which is rooted in ignorance. You should offer evidence of my ignorance before calling me ignorant which I know is an excuse you are making to run away from a meaningful discussion. Your comment that Hindus have altered their scriptures is pure ignorance. The Hindu scriptures are the Bhagavad Gita and the Vedas which also contain the Upanishads. These were never altered and you will never find two versions of these scriptures. So to keep repeating the nonsense that Hindu scriptures have been altered is nothing but ignorance just like you ignorantly ranted that the Vedas have no reference to reincarnation.

I do realize that our senses are imperfect. For example, we do not hear all the sounds that dogs may hear. The earth appears flat to the eyes but it is not so. But that does not mean everything we see with our eyes is faulty. When a new born baby dies of congenital disease, the fact is the baby is dead. A dead baby is a dead baby. There is no misunderstanding or faulty understanding with respect to the fact that the baby is dead and not alive. Human senses have certain limitations in the sense that they cannot see the earth going around the sun but the human eyes are good enough to figure out if a person is dead or alive. So your argument that simply because the senses are imperfect, they cannot understand anything of God's creation is more ignorance. Senses tell you every process that God created is cyclic. Would that be a wrong conclusion simply because the senses are imperfect?

I am not fighting for any religion. But I am opposed to people like yourself and trailblazer putting down other religions as too old, corrupted, abrogated. Show me the evidence that the Hindu scriptures are corrupted. Otherwise, have some humility and acknowledge your ignorance.
 
Jul 2017
442
Olympia, WA, USA
#87
Calling it fate and predestination is not an explanation. It is merely coming up with labels. Such labels do not help a person how to overcome a situation and will destroy one's will power since a bad situation may be accepted as irrevocable fate and the person may do nothing. If Abraham Lincoln had embraced such philosophy, he would have never become the U.S president because his early life was a series of failures.

Then I am not sure why you participate in a discussion over reincarnation. The logical conclusions about reincarnation do not come from belief. It comes from a keen observation, intellectual analysis and rational thinking.
I have written replies to all your posts and I have them saved in Word documents (where I write all my longer posts) but I am not sure if I want to continue posting on this forum because I have asked the staff to remove all the advertising and they do not seem to be able to get a handle on it.

I cordially invite you to come to the Planet Baha'i forum. It is not very active right now but it is a long established forum and the owner is a very knowledgeable Baha'i. There is one Baha'i poster there who is very familiar with Hinduism. He was raised a Catholic but he was also researching Hinduism before he became a Baha'i about 10 years ago, and he knows the Vedas. There is also another Baha'i poster there who is very much into mysticism and meditation.

If you want to come there, I will start a new thread and post what I have written to you on that forum.
Anyone else here is also welcome to come there. It is a moderated forum so it has rules.

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Planet Baha'i and the Baha'is who post there, many of whom are no longer there, are responsible for my comeback to the Baha'i Faith in January 2013. Had it not been for them, I would probably still be wandering aimlessly, lost and alone.

I also have my own forum in that group, but it is mostly nonbelievers and a couple of Christians, and only one other Baha'i who is not very deepened.
 

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