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Aug 2015
380
Europe
#81
Yes, in the context of the hour-long class meeting twice per week for three months. No, in the context of life.
No, it doesn't work like that.
My boss is my boss, always, never my friend.

We are equals in worth, we are temporarily playing different roles in the context of a single class.
How polite.

Most of the time, the tutor is the person selling their services and the student is the customer.
And caveat emptor, eh?
So much for buying into it!

Moreover, my future in the Baha'i faith depends on obtaining the approval of a tutor.
Not sure what this even is supposed to mean?
The standing that a person has in the Baha'i community depends on the approval that they get from their teacher.

Yes, some people do prefer an authoritarian process. Not sure the relevance of this.
So far, it looks like the people who are primarily suitable to become Baha'is are people who prefer an authoritarian process.

Ruhi tutors have no authority in the Baha'i Faith.
Then why on earth do they teach it?!
There is no point in taking a course led by someone, if one doesn't believe that said leader is an authority on the matter!

The difference is, in the Baha'i Faith, the door to authorized interpretation is firmly closed until the next Manifestation in 800+ years. I can't think of any other religion where that is the case. It's basically a religious version of "separation of powers" - a true innovation and one I believe is a perfect match for the coming of age of humanity.
Not that that ever stopped anyone from setting themselves up as the authority.

There simply are no gurus in the Baha'i Faith, other than Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha - so essentially no gurus for the last century, and none to come in the future.
Ruhi teachers fulfill the role of gurus.
 
Oct 2013
1,208
United States
#82
Oh well. If one has decided to seriously affiliate oneself with a certain religious institution, then one declares said institution to be divinely inspired, and its members and programs as well. Doing so is an essential part of religiosity.
Actually, individual members of the Universal House of Justice have no authority. It is only the elected body meeting as a body that holds that authority.
 
Aug 2015
380
Europe
#83
And in the Baha'i faith, one person's word does count for more than another's.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
That even Baha'is are not equal amongst themselves.

For example, take the problem with homosexual people who want to be or claim to be Baha'is. How does that work out? Are they accepted as equals? Does what they say count equally as what other members say? No.

What to speak of conflicts between Baha'is and non-Baha'is.
In a conflict between a Baha'i and a non-Baha'i, whom do Baha'is on principle side with? Need an answer?
 
Oct 2013
1,208
United States
#85
That even Baha'is are not equal amongst themselves.

For example, take the problem with homosexual people who want to be or claim to be Baha'is. How does that work out? Are they accepted as equals? Does what they say count equally as what other members say? No.
Not sure what you are trying to say. There are lots of homosexual Baha'is. There was one who posted here very regularly, Cire Perdue, who passed away a couple years ago. He was and is an amazing soul and one I look up to as an example.

What to speak of conflicts between Baha'is and non-Baha'is.
In a conflict between a Baha'i and a non-Baha'i, whom do Baha'is on principle side with? Need an answer?
I usually side with the non-Baha'i. You can ask the folks here and they will tell you that!
 
Jun 2011
1,543
Somewhere "in this immensity"
#86
If I were to ever go to such a study circle, I would keep a low profile, comply, and not ask any questions to which I would like to have answers. Or leave.
That is exactly as I would expect, and why I suggested it. One can learn a great deal about anything by observing, much as a bird watcher can learn without needing to flap his arms or squawk. Of course, it is not possible to know directly of the experience itself as an observer, but you could at least determine the degree of authority of the tutor and the other things you have speculated about.

Otherwise, I am quite sure that just like at this forum, someone in the study group would begin to drop hints as to how I "might not be ready for the truth," that I am selfish, prejudiced etc. etc. Smiley faces and fancy talk convince someone people, but not everyone.
It is possible that such things could occur, but how can you be so sure none of it is actually so about you?



Just because it is rare, doesn't mean it doesn't matter or that it isn't part of the doctrine.
This is a peculiar statement. It stands to reason that I am aware of and do recognize it is part of the doctrine since it was I who told you the two practices exist. You seem to insinuate that there is something wrong with the practice, but if there is something wrong with it, it is not clear to me, and you have not made a case that it is. Since I told you the about the two practices, its stands to reason that I am aware of their existence in the doctrine, or what was I talking about at all?

Oh please. What a load of nonsense.
It is nonsense, but you are the one who seems to suggest there might be something wrong about Baha'is actually enforcing its doctrines and ordinances upon its own voluntary adherents, not I. If they never did, and if nobody ever complied, would it not be tantamount to anarchy within the faith?

Cheers
 
Aug 2015
380
Europe
#87
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Uh. There is a social hierarchy, there is inequality, there are differences in power.
It is even officially so, given the various formal positions that members have.


To say nothing of the informal hierarchy. Insiders often don't see it, or refuse to acknowledge it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. An outsider can readily see the power hierarchy in a group, even as the group claims to be consisting of equals.


There are lots of homosexual Baha'is. There was one who posted here very regularly, Cire Perdue, who passed away a couple years ago. He was and is an amazing soul and one I look up to as an example.
How about the homosexual Baha'is who wish that the Baha'i community would accept same-sex marriages? Are they heard? Are they treated equally?


I usually side with the non-Baha'i.
Why??
 
Aug 2015
380
Europe
#88
That is exactly as I would expect, and why I suggested it. One can learn a great deal about anything by observing, much as a bird watcher can learn without needing to flap his arms or squawk. Of course, it is not possible to know directly of the experience itself as an observer,
But I, as a non-Baha'i, would probably see different things than you, a member.

but you could at least determine the degree of authority of the tutor
Not at all. Because I myself would need to be an authority in divine matters in order to be able to tell who is an authority and who isn't.

And like I said, I would not even go to such a course if I would not believe the teacher to have authority. I see no point in taking a course with someone whom I don't consider an expert and an authority in the course matter.

It is possible that such things could occur, but how can you be so sure none of it is actually so about you?
Gaslighting, huh?
Yeah, blame me, call me retarded, that's the universal religious solution for everything.


You seem to insinuate that there is something wrong with the practice, but if there is something wrong with it, it is not clear to me, and you have not made a case that it is. Since I told you the about the two practices, its stands to reason that I am aware of their existence in the doctrine, or what was I talking about at all?
I keep saying that not all Baha'is are equal, and the fact that there exists the institute of excommunication is evidence of that.

All Baha'is would be equal if no Baha'i could ever take any action that could get another Baha's excommunicated.
But clearly, since the institute of excommunication exists in the Baha'i faith, not all Baha'is are equal.


It is nonsense, but you are the one who seems to suggest there might be something wrong about Baha'is actually enforcing its doctrines and ordinances upon its own voluntary adherents, not I.
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying you're putting the cart before the horse as far as prospective members and outsiders are concerned.

If they never did, and if nobody ever complied, would it not be tantamount to anarchy within the faith?
Then the faith would not exist to begin with, and your point is moot.
 
Oct 2013
1,208
United States
#89
No, it doesn't work like that.
My boss is my boss, always, never my friend.
The role of an employer is very different than the role of a teacher, at least in my country / culture (United States of America).


The standing that a person has in the Baha'i community depends on the approval that they get from their teacher.
In my community, the standing that a person has depends on their wisdom, kindness and behavior, not on how many Ruhi courses they have completed.

So far, it looks like the people who are primarily suitable to become Baha'is are people who prefer an authoritarian process.
I am a Baha'i because I believe that Baha'u'llah embodies the Spirit of Truth for this age and I am in awe with the beauty of his wisdom and life. I am a very non-authoritarian person, in fact my wife and I unschooled our children, which is probably the least authoritarian way one can be a parent.

Ruhi teachers fulfill the role of gurus.
You'll have to show me some convincing evidence of that. I certainly don't hear Baha'i's in my local community embracing that kind of perspective.
 
Aug 2015
380
Europe
#90
The role of an employer is very different than the role of a teacher, at least in my country / culture (United States of America).
I'm not American.
The teacher is a kind of boss, where I am. Any kind of teacher.


In my community, the standing that a person has depends on their wisdom, kindness and behavior
IOW, a person's standing depends on how others assess him or her.


You'll have to show me some convincing evidence of that.
Like I said, I would not even go to such a course if I would not believe the teacher to have authority. I see no point in taking a course with someone whom I don't consider an expert and an authority in the course matter.


I certainly don't hear Baha'i's in my local community embracing that kind of perspective.
So people there are okay with taking courses led by someone whom they don't believe to be an authority in the course matter??

That's a waste of time and money!
 

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