Was Baha’u’llah the Prince of this world?

Jul 2017
287
Olympia, WA, USA
#1
Shoghi Effendi wrote about Baha’u’llah, and I posted this to a Christian on a forum as part of a discussion:

“To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” God Passes By, p. 95

Below is the response from the Christian. My question is: Where did Jesus refer to Baha’u’llah as “Prince of this world?” I was never a Christian, so I am pretty much lost when it comes to the Bible.

So far, response was that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of peace referred to in Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

But Isaiah is not Jesus. Where did Jesus make the reference to the Prince of this world as it could apply to Baha’u’llah?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Trailblazer, let's look closely at just ONE point you make. Hopefully, it will shed some light on a lie.

Shoghi Effendi calls the Messiah 'the Prince of this world'.

Are you not aware that the prince of this world is not the Messiah! It's the DEVIL or SATAN!

John 12:31. 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I [Jesus Christ] be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'

The DEVIL or SATAN is CAST OUT because the world, of which he is the PRINCE, is JUDGED.

Confirmation is found in the following verses.
John 14:30. 'Hereafter I [Jesus] will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.'
So the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS NOTHING IN JESUS!!
The two are poles apart!

The great deception of Satan is to make that which is evil appear as light. You are falling for it, my friend! I hope other Baha'is will begin to see the error of their ways.

As additional confirmation, look at John 16: 8-11.
'And when he [the Comforter, or Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I [Jesus] go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'

Think about it, Trailblazer. All along you have been keen to quote passages from John's Gospel that demonstrate that Christ came from the Father into the world as light into darkness. The world is a place of darkness.
John 17:14,15. 'I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them [my disciples], because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.'

Why would you call the Saviour from darkness the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD?!! This is logic gone mad!

#235 Redemptionsong, Today at 6:30 AM
 
May 2018
73
New Zealand
#2
Hm.. I am not sure why Shoghi Effendi says that Jesus refers to Baha'u'llah ( or the future Manifestations ) as the " the Prince of this world" :think:

In that section of John chapters 12-17, "the prince of this world" is the Devil ( or the lower nature of mankind)
Jesus uses a number of other terms for the coming messenger " Spirit of Truth" , "the Comforter" , "the Advocate" . Christians take this terms to mean the Holy spirit , but the holy spirit is mentioned separately.. so I seems these terms refer to one or more future Manifestation ..

But " prince of this world" is the advisory ..

So that passage from God Passes By doesn't make sense ..

Are there any writings from Baha'u'llah or Abdul-baha that use this phrase ?

-T
 
Jun 2014
1,008
Wisconsin
#3
Hm.. I am not sure why Shoghi Effendi says that Jesus refers to Baha'u'llah ( or the future Manifestations ) as the " the Prince of this world" :think:

In that section of John chapters 12-17, "the prince of this world" is the Devil ( or the lower nature of mankind)
Jesus uses a number of other terms for the coming messenger " Spirit of Truth" , "the Comforter" , "the Advocate" . Christians take this terms to mean the Holy spirit , but the holy spirit is mentioned separately.. so I seems these terms refer to one or more future Manifestation ..

But " prince of this world" is the advisory ..

So that passage from God Passes By doesn't make sense ..

Are there any writings from Baha'u'llah or Abdul-baha that use this phrase ?

-T
"Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ‘Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and ‘hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha 145)

Which, yes, is a radically different interpretation of the verse in question than every other interpretation of that verse.
 
Likes: Trailblazer
May 2018
73
New Zealand
#4
"Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ‘Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and ‘hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha 145)

Which, yes, is a radically different interpretation of the verse in question than every other interpretation of that verse.

Hm
Yes very different.

How does that interpretation sit with
John 12:31. 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I [Jesus Christ] be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'?
 
Jun 2014
1,008
Wisconsin
#5
Hm
Yes very different.

How does that interpretation sit with
John 12:31. 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I [Jesus Christ] be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'?
I don't know, since 'Abdu'l-Baha responded only to a request to interpret once verse and not the rest.
 
Apr 2018
19
Ontario
#6
I think picking out verses from the Bible and trying to relate them to Baha’u’llah’s writing is an unfruitful path. The fruit of past religions are dying on the vine. Don’t try for more that a brief moment to attract someone to the Baha’i Faith. If they are not attracted immediately let them be on their own. There are too many souls to stir and too little time to make mention of the Baha’i Faith to everyone so if there is any resistance move on. They will watch the world they know rot and burn and will turn to Baha’u’llah and live or reject Him and die.
 
Likes: Trailblazer
Jul 2017
287
Olympia, WA, USA
#7
I think picking out verses from the Bible and trying to relate them to Baha’u’llah’s writing is an unfruitful path. The fruit of past religions are dying on the vine. Don’t try for more that a brief moment to attract someone to the Baha’i Faith. If they are not attracted immediately let them be on their own. There are too many souls to stir and too little time to make mention of the Baha’i Faith to everyone so if there is any resistance move on. They will watch the world they know rot and burn and will turn to Baha’u’llah and live or reject Him and die.
Hmmmmm.... I was not searching out Christians but this one Christian kept posting to me so I just wanted to answer his question. Duane had the answer from Selections that Walrus posted and he posted it to me on that forum where I was posting...

I do not like discussing the Bible and I think it should be put on the bookshelf. I seem to be in the minority among Baha'is who teach on forums regarding this matter, but I am outspoken about it. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi said that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogates all dispensations gone before it. I am sorry people don't like that but it is Reality.

I only respond to people who show an interest. I never go chasing after anyone. I tend to believe that if they keep posting to me and asking questions, they have some interest, even if they are negative about the Faith. Moreover, I have seen changes over time in atheists I post to. I got to know them and befriended them. At the very least, they now know a lot about the Faith. Who knows what might happen in the future?

It is my concerted opinion that it is pretty hopeless talking to people who already have a religion such as Christianity or Judaism. They are mired in their own religious beliefs and they are unwilling to give them up. They will wait for Jesus or the Messiah made in their own image till hell freezes over. Meanwhile, the world situation just continues to get worse and worse. Woe betide them.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
 
May 2018
73
New Zealand
#8
If you don't want to talk to Jews, Christian or Muslims, you are discarding half the world's population...

Also
The second Glad-Tidings
It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the day-star of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds.
 
Sep 2017
303
Earth
#9
Hmmmmm.... I was not searching out Christians but this one Christian kept posting to me so I just wanted to answer his question. Duane had the answer from Selections that Walrus posted and he posted it to me on that forum where I was posting...

I do not like discussing the Bible and I think it should be put on the bookshelf. I seem to be in the minority among Baha'is who teach on forums regarding this matter, but I am outspoken about it. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi said that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogates all dispensations gone before it. I am sorry people don't like that but it is Reality.

I only respond to people who show an interest. I never go chasing after anyone. I tend to believe that if they keep posting to me and asking questions, they have some interest, even if they are negative about the Faith. Moreover, I have seen changes over time in atheists I post to. I got to know them and befriended them. At the very least, they now know a lot about the Faith. Who knows what might happen in the future?

It is my concerted opinion that it is pretty hopeless talking to people who already have a religion such as Christianity or Judaism. They are mired in their own religious beliefs and they are unwilling to give them up. They will wait for Jesus or the Messiah made in their own image till hell freezes over. Meanwhile, the world situation just continues to get worse and worse. Woe betide them.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
When we see how Abdul Baha taught we can see how he transformed the most hardened people. I think tact and wisdom is key, if we know someone is hardened making friends, real friends is key. When we see how many Bahá’í are Bahá’í because their parents are we can ask the question how many people would be Bahá’í if they We’re born in that family? Quite a few, so it’s up to us how we teach. Maybe we can’t reach everyone and they can only be reached by something else. That’s why ‘when the victory arriveth every man shall profess himself as believer’.. that will be the only thing that will change some people .. large numbers
 
Likes: Traveller
Apr 2018
19
Ontario
#10
Hmmmmm.... I was not searching out Christians but this one Christian kept posting to me so I just wanted to answer his question. Duane had the answer from Selections that Walrus posted and he posted it to me on that forum where I was posting...

I do not like discussing the Bible and I think it should be put on the bookshelf. I seem to be in the minority among Baha'is who teach on forums regarding this matter, but I am outspoken about it. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi said that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogates all dispensations gone before it. I am sorry people don't like that but it is Reality.

I only respond to people who show an interest. I never go chasing after anyone. I tend to believe that if they keep posting to me and asking questions, they have some interest, even if they are negative about the Faith. Moreover, I have seen changes over time in atheists I post to. I got to know them and befriended them. At the very least, they now know a lot about the Faith. Who knows what might happen in the future?

It is my concerted opinion that it is pretty hopeless talking to people who already have a religion such as Christianity or Judaism. They are mired in their own religious beliefs and they are unwilling to give them up. They will wait for Jesus or the Messiah made in their own image till hell freezes over. Meanwhile, the world situation just continues to get worse and worse. Woe betide them.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
If someone shows interest there is a good reason to spend time on it. If I bring up the Baha’i Faith and receive a negative or dismissive response I make one atempt to proved a prospective to address the issue and then cut and run to the next one. Sometimes it’s best to just make mention of Baha’u’llah and let Him spark an interest in a person if they are receptive. I have only ever been attracted to the writings and have only once or twice met a Baha’i that could present the faith accurately.
 
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