Women on the UHJ

ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
Hi @certitude

Personaly i believe that if a Christian act according to the spirit of Christ, he could be also called a Baha'i.
In doing so, you do not respect the right of every human being to position themselves. If a person understands himself as a Christian, you cannot deny him this and claim that he can also be called Baha'i.
Ohh... I not deny him. Sure not. But being a true Christ and Baha'i... is just the same.

The only different was the time when the Light of God was shining.

Before it was shining through Jesus. Later through Bahāʾullāh.


... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

When Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Bahá'ís.

For the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Bahá'u'lláh are one.

The foundations of all the divine Prophets and Holy Books are one.

The difference among them is one of terminology only.

Each springtime is identical with the former springtime.

The distinction between them is only one of the calendar -- 1911, 1912 and so on.

The difference between a Christian and a Bahá'í, therefore, is this:

There was a former springtime, and there is a springtime now.

No other difference exists because the foundations are the same.

Whoever acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a Bahá'í.

Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library
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Jul 2018
101
Tarshish, bound for Nineveh
Jehoschua,

I would like to respond to your earlier comment on progressive revelation, and point out that, while the term progressive revelation is often on the tongues of Bahais, it is not really a uniquely Bahai idea. In fact, you need look no further than your own Holy Bible, to find ample evidence of it occurring over many millennia in the Judaeo-Christian context alone.

Cheers
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Personaly i believe that if a Christian act according to the spirit of Christ, he could be also called a Baha'i.
For your information, I am a Christian and not a Baha'i. If your religion tells you that it is essentially the same, then you are free to call yourself a Christian. But for myself I forbid to deny my religious self-understanding. Your brother in belief Certittude has brought it to the point. Finally, I also accept your religious self-understanding and do not call you a Muslim, even if I recognize similarities in you. It is a question of respect. This is what every interreligious dialogue needs.

I would like to respond to your earlier comment on progressive revelation, and point out that, while the term progressive revelation is often on the tongues of Bahais, it is not really a uniquely Bahai idea. In fact, you need look no further than your own Holy Bible, to find ample evidence of it occurring over many millennia in the Judaeo-Christian context alone.
Thank you, Luqman, you find the principle in many religions. In Christianity from the Hebrew Bible to the New Testament, within Judaism from the Torah to Jesus Christ, within Islam, Meccan and Medinan suras, or in a superordinate understanding within the Abrahamic line or in a cyclic sense in Hinduism. But at the same time I think that not everything we call progressive is really progressive, and on the other hand I find it strange that I am accused of not understanding the principle because it was Christianity that existed long before the Baha'i and knew this principle.
 
Jul 2018
101
Tarshish, bound for Nineveh
For your information, I am a Christian and not a Baha'i. If your religion tells you that it is essentially the same, then you are free to call yourself a Christian. But for myself I forbid to deny my religious self-understanding. Your brother in belief Certittude has brought it to the point. Finally, I also accept your religious self-understanding and do not call you a Muslim, even if I recognize similarities in you. It is a question of respect. This is what every interreligious dialogue needs.



Thank you, Luqman, you find the principle in many religions. In Christianity from the Hebrew Bible to the New Testament, within Judaism from the Torah to Jesus Christ, within Islam, Meccan and Medinan suras, or in a superordinate understanding within the Abrahamic line or in a cyclic sense in Hinduism. But at the same time I think that not everything we call progressive is really progressive, and on the other hand I find it strange that I am accused of not understanding the principle because it was Christianity that existed long before the Baha'i and knew this principle.
Jehoschua,

I have no doubt that you, as well as many Christians are keenly (even if subconsciously, perhaps for some) aware of the fact of progressive revelation even if it has not been encapsulated and neatly labeled as the Bahai have done.

I am thankful to you for your respect, and I assure you in my heart is great respect for you as well, and I hope you will keep that in mind in any discourse we may have because I am far far from perfect at communicating and it could be that I may one day (if I haven't already) say something that offends you, no matter how far from my intention it may be.

Cheers
 
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Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
I am thankful to you for your respect, and I assure you in my heart is great respect for you as well, and I hope you will keep that in mind in any discourse we may have because I am far far from perfect at communicating and it could be that I may one day (if I haven't already) say something that offends you, no matter how far from my intention it may be.
No problem. There will always be misunderstandings in communication. This cannot be avoided. It only becomes difficult where the theological understanding of people leads to disputes. Also in Christianity it was always clear that prophetic speeches must always serve the edification of the community. In my humble opinion this includes taking other people seriously in their religious self-understanding and not wanting to conceal all differences in order to live up to one's own convictions. I even think that in the end this disguise can no longer lead to a genuine dialogue. Basically like in a good marriage. If you start to iron everything softly, you will only have an illusory relationship without real contrasts. Without these contrasts, there are no common points that can be taken up. The Church, for example, has always preserved respect for its counterpart by canonizing only those who were Catholic themselves.
 
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Jul 2017
483
Olympia, WA, USA
When Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Bahá'ís.

For the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Bahá'u'lláh are one.
Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library
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I have a problem with what Abdu'l-Baha said and as I told you before, I speak directly, I do not beat around the bush.

Question: Are not all Christians Bahá’ís? Is there any difference?
Answer: When Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Bahá’ís. For the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Bahá’u’lláh are one. The foundations of all the divine Prophets and Holy Books are one. The difference among them is one of terminology only. Each springtime is identical with the former springtime. The distinction between them is only one of the calendar—1911, 1912 and so on. The difference between a Christian and a Bahá’í, therefore, is this: There was a former springtime, and there is a springtime now. No other difference exists because the foundations are the same. Whoever acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a Bahá’í. The purpose is the essential meaning of Christian, not the mere word. The purpose is the sun itself and not the dawning points. For though the sun is one sun, its dawning points are many. We must not adore the dawning points but worship the sun. We must adore the reality of religion and not blindly cling to the appellation Christianity. The Sun of Reality must be worshiped and followed. The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 247-248

“No other difference exists because the foundations are the same. Whoever acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a Bahá’í.”

This makes no logical sense at all. That would be like saying that if a Baha’i acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ then that Baha’i is a Christian. A person is not a Baha’i unless they recognize Baha’u’llah as a Manifestation of God:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

Moreover, if a Christian was acting in accordance with the teachings of Christ, as opposed to the teachings of the Church, then they would have recognized Baha’u’llah, since Jesus promised to send another Comforter and the Spirit of Truth, and Baha’u’llah claimed to be both.

“The purpose is the sun itself and not the dawning points. For though the sun is one sun, its dawning points are many. We must not adore the dawning points but worship the sun. “

But Christians worship the dawning point, Jesus, not the sun, and as such they cannot see any other dawning points. This is logic 101 stuff.
 

ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
Hi Jehoschua
I also accept your religious self-understanding and do not call you a Muslim, even if I recognize similarities in you.
In my - as always - personal opinion: Mohammed (عليه السلام) was not only a deep believer in Jesus Christ...

No... but more. He received from the same source as Jesus did as Moses did as Bahāʾullāh did.

That why....

His first objection to His own followers was:
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“Why have you not believed on Jesus Christ?

Why have you not accepted the Gospel?

Why have you not believed in Moses?

Why have you not followed the precepts of the Old Testament?

Why have you not understood the prophets of Israel?

Why have you not believed in the disciples of Christ?

The first duty incumbent upon ye, O Arabians, is to accept and believe in these.

You must consider Moses as a Prophet.

You must accept Jesus Christ as the Word of God.

You must know the Old and the New Testaments as the Word of God.

You must believe in Jesus Christ as the product of the Holy Spirit.”


His people answered.

“O Muḥammad! We will become believers although our fathers and ancestors were not believers, and we are proud of them. Tell us what is going to become of them?”


Muḥammad replied:

“I declare unto you that they occupy the lowest stratum of hell because they did not believe in Moses and Christ and because they did not accept the Bible; and although they are my own ancestors, yet they are in despair in hell.”


This is an explicit text of the Qur’án; it is not a story or tradition but from the Qur’án itself, which is in the hands of the people.

Therefore, it is evident that ignorance and misunderstanding have caused so much warfare and strife between Christians and Muslims.

If both should investigate the underlying truth of their religious beliefs, the outcome would be unity and agreement;

strife and bitterness would pass away forever and the world of humanity find peace and composure.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
( Source: The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library )
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Man ( and Women also... :) ) must come to the point where they can clearly see the Truth behind all holy scriptures and Religion.

Behind all divisions.

Behind all what appears contradictory.

This is one of the highest Goal one can reach. For Peace and Unity. Globally as Individually.


Because the spirit of Christ, which is the same spirit of Bahāʾullāh, never ever did create any divisions.

People did.

But never the Light of Christ.
Never the Light of Bahāʾullāh.


Because the Light was comming always from the same Source.


Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
Mohammed was a Manifestation of God.
Bahāʾullāh was a Manifestation of God.

Moses where 100% accepted by Jesus.
Moses and Jesus where 100% accepted by Mohammed.
Moses and Jesus and Mohammed where 100% accepted by Bahāʾullāh.


Only deeplevel-errors, deeplevel-misinterpretation and deeplevel-misunderstandings... was the source of all divisions and hostility. Ever.
 
Last edited:
Aug 2010
726
New Zealand mainly
A couple of things about that quote attributed to Abdu'l-Baha should ring alarm bells. It's in Promulgation of Universal Peace, which is an eclectic mix of authenticated and unauthenticated reports of Abdu'l-Baha's talks. Abdu'l-Baha is supposed to have said :
"The distinction between them is only one of the calendar -- 1911, 1912 and so on. ..." but he is a Persian living in Palestine and reading the Arabic press, so using the Persian, Syrian and Islamic calendars, not the Gregorian calendar. He is reported to say that the sun has risen in the East, and now in the West -- is he talking about Joseph Smith perhaps? Or is it rather that the note-taker equates Abdu'l-Baha, now in the West, with Christ and Muhammad? He is reported as saying "We must not adore the dawning points but worship the sun..." but it is not Bahai teaching that one can have direct access to God without the manifestation (the dawning-point).

Then the notes are attributed to Howard McNutt, who edited the volume and changed the text, in some cases interpolating his own words into Abdu'l-Baha's mouth. His notes (of what Ameen Fareed translated of what Abdu'l-Baha spoke) would be taken longhand, which is not ideal. There are no Persian notes of that talk, that would allow us to check how much is Abdu'l-Baha and how much is the interpreter and note-taker. There is however a version published in Star of the West, which shows he did not change much when he included the talk in PUP.
 
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ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
Dear Trailblazer
I told you before, I speak directly, I do not beat around the bush.
And that with honesty and politeness :yes:

Lord Bahāʾullāh and Abdu'l-Baha right now are in Heaven... sitting togehter with Lord Jesus at the right hand of God.

And in Heaven, nobody condemned anyone on Earth. Ever.

There is only pure merci, pure wisdom, pure forgiveness and unconditional love for everyone on earth. With no exception.

If - for example - one missunderstood Jesus, or Abdu'l-Baha, or even Bahāʾullāh... or having "believe-trouble" there is no condemnation.

People with low spirtuality condemn.

Bahāʾullāh and Abdu'l-Baha in Heaven not.

People with a closed-mind punish for "believe-issues" and getting angry.

Jesus in Heaven not.

And never did.


But for what the people judge others, they judged themself.
And with the measure they use, it will be measured to them self... in the end.


If people make errors, do missunderstood, do missinterpret, but wanting Unity in their Heart with all people...
but are not always able of "how to"... then Bahāʾullāh and Jesus are always on their side.

In my personal opinion.... I even would say that specially for this...
God was sending his Manifestation Bahāʾullāh to us... like He was sending his beloved Son Jesus 2000 years ago to the World.

For helping the people... to reach Peace and Unity.

For God have so much love for the people in the world, that He gave his very beloved Son Jesus and His Manifestation Bahāʾullāh,
that whosoever believeth and act in their spirit and teachings ... should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God not send Them into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through their spirit and teachings might be saved.

if a Christian was acting in accordance with the teachings of Christ, as opposed to the teachings of the Church, then they would have recognized Baha’u’llah
As a follower of the spirit of Christ... i 100% agree with You. :fold:
 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
483
Olympia, WA, USA
Dear Trailblazer

And that with honesty and politeness :yes:

Lord Bahāʾullāh and Abdu'l-Baha right now are in Heaven... sitting togehter with Lord Jesus at the right hand of God.

And in Heaven, nobody condemned anyone on Earth. Ever.

There is only pure merci, pure wisdom, pure forgiveness and unconditional love for everyone on earth. With no exception.

If - for example - one missunderstood Jesus, or Abdu'l-Baha, or even Bahāʾullāh... or having "believe-trouble" there is no condemnation.

People with low spirtuality condemn.

Bahāʾullāh and Abdu'l-Baha in Heaven not.

People with a closed-mind punish for "believe-issues" and getting angry.

Jesus in Heaven not.

And never did.


But for what the people judge others, they judged themself.
And with the measure they use, it will be measured to them self... in the end.


If people make errors, do missunderstood, do missinterpret, but wanting Unity in their Heart with all people...
but are not always able of "how to"... then Bahāʾullāh and Jesus are always on their side.

In my personal opinion.... I even would say that specially for this...
God was sending his Manifestion Bahāʾullāh to us... like He was sending his beloved Son Jesus 2000 years ago to the World.

For helping the people... to reach Peace and Unity.

For God have so much love for the people in the world, that He gave his very beloved Son Jesus and His Manifestion Bahāʾullāh,
that whosoever believeth and act in their spirit and teachings ... should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God not send Them into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through their spirit and teachings might be saved.


As a follower of the spirit of Christ... i 100% agree with You. :fold:
I am not sure what will happen to any of us in the spiritual world, but on a new thread I just started on another forum a Christian just said:
"God's love is fighting for people and you never now if they will believe; because no one comes to God unless the Father drew them."

and I responded:

"That is also a belief of my religion, we call it being guided. God guides those who He chooses to guide and we cannot ever know who those people will be. God has His reasons and we cannot ever know what they are. That is why we should never judge anyone. After all, any believer can fall from grace at any time."


“He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!” Tablet of the True Seeker, p. 266

Admittedly, I lean towards discussions with atheists but when I open up my threads to believers as well as atheists I often discover just how much Baha'is have in common with Christians, and in fact many things they have I would like to have, like their faith and love for God. I was not raised in any religion, so I find that hard to come by... :(

I joined the Baha'i Faith because of the teachings, world peace and world unity and all of that, and only much later in life did I even give God much thought.
 
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