Women on the UHJ

ams

Nov 2019
88
Thailand
Unity is not possible because people think their religion is superior and not because they follow old religions.
:yes: I think this was the meaning when Master Abdu'l-Bahá said:

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When Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Bahá'ís.

For the foundations of Christianity and the religion of Bahá'u'lláh are one.

The foundations of all the divine Prophets and Holy Books are one.

The difference among them is one of terminology only.

Each springtime is identical with the former springtime.

The distinction between them is only one of the calendar -- 1911, 1912 and so on.

The difference between a Christian and a Bahá'í, therefore, is this:

There was a former springtime, and there is a springtime now.

No other difference exists because the foundations are the same.

Whoever acts completely in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a Bahá'í.


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Aug 2019
86
Berlin
When Christians act according to the teachings of Christ, they are called Bahá'ís.
I see that as a little problematic.
If it helps a Baha'i to meet the Christian at eye level and to refrain from efforts to convert him, I think the approach is good.
Then this approach is good for us.
What is not good about this approach is that the Christian is not respected in his religious self-understanding. Decency already forbids to decide about other people and members of other religions. Nor would we like to be defined as Hindus, Muslims or Christians just because members of these religions think we are Hindus, Muslims or Christians.
 
Jul 2017
511
Olympia, WA, USA
Unity is not possible because people think their religion is superior and not because they follow old religions.
With the above statement you have got into a contradiction because you consider it a mistake that people supposedly follow old religions. But this is only your consideration, which implies to the others that they follow a false religion and that your religion is superior to the others.
I said: The reason unity is impossible is because people cling to their older religions and they all believe their religion is superior to the other religions.
I did not say: The other religions that they follow are false religions and my religion is superior to the others.

I never said anything about a mistake or that the older religions are false.
Unity is impossible if everyone is clinging to their older religions because in that case they will all continue following *different religions* so religion can never be ONE.

“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix
 
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ams

Nov 2019
88
Thailand
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“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix
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... "all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers" ... includes of course also all women.

Not that one will make a fatal mistake.... reading it too much literally.... meaning only the gender of men are meant here :halo: :fold: :halo:
 
Aug 2019
86
Berlin
I said: The reason unity is impossible is because people cling to their older religions and they all believe their religion is superior to the other religions.
I did not say:
The other religions that they follow are false religions and my religion is superior to the others.
That's it. You said it was a wrong way of believing to follow the older religions. Your view of religion, namely to have to follow the new religion, is the correct way of believing from your point of view. You have here the true/false dualism I mentioned. That you now try to defend this dualistic approach with arguments does not change anything.

I never said anything about a mistake or that the older religions are false.
Do you notice what you write yourself? To follow and hold on to the old religions is a mistake from your point of view.
As I wrote to you:
The mistake is not to hold on to one's religion, but not to allow others not to follow their religion.

Unity is impossible if everyone is clinging to their older religions because in that case they will all continue following *different religions* so religion can never be ONE.
You don't get it, do you?
Unity is not possible because the views are like yours, namely that clinging to the old religions stands against the unity.
Your view of religion is that ONE RELIGION has yet to be created.
In fact, you are making exactly the mistake I have described before.
The unity of religions IS already realized. All you have to do is to recognize the other people in their religion that they cling to and accept them.
 
Aug 2019
86
Berlin
... "all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers" ... includes of course also all women.

Not that one will make a fatal mistake.... reading it too much literally.... meaning only the gender of men are meant here :halo: :fold: :halo:
Maybe Trailblazer will pay all women for sex change so that they really belong to this one religion.
It should never be that women are clinging to their older gender and thus stand against the unity.

:halo:
 
Jul 2017
511
Olympia, WA, USA
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---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

... "all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers" ... includes of course also all women.

Not that one will make a fatal mistake.... reading it too much literally.... meaning only the gender of men are meant here :halo: :fold: :halo:
Men in this context means humankind. :)
 
Jul 2017
511
Olympia, WA, USA
That's it. You said it was a wrong way of believing to follow the older religions.
STRAW MAN. I did not say that anything about a “wrong way” of believing.

I said: The reason unity is impossible is because people cling to their older religions and they all believe their religion is superior to the other religions.

I never used the word “wrong.”
Your view of religion, namely to have to follow the new religion, is the correct way of believing from your point of view. You have here the true/false dualism I mentioned. That you now try to defend this dualistic approach with arguments does not change anything.
My view of religion? How do you know MY view of religion from a few posts?

STRAW MAN. I never said anything about correct or incorrect. YOU said that.

You do not know ME or my thoughts or MY view of religion. I have no dualistic approach.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45
Do you notice what you write yourself? To follow and hold on to the old religions is a mistake from your point of view.
STRAW MAN. It is not MY point of view.

To follow and hold on to the old religions is a mistake from Baha’u’llah’s point of view.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

“His Manifestation” is Baha’u’llah, in case you don’t know that.

Take your grievances up with Baha’u’llah, unless you can find some Writings of Baha’u’llah that enjoin Baha’is to tell people to follow the older religions. I cannot find any, hard as I looked. All I can find is injunctions from Baha’u’llah for us to teach the Faith. If Baha’u’llah does not want the adherents of older religions to become Baha’is, why would He enjoin us to teach the Faith? In Gleanings alone there are over 101 such injunctions. Here are just a couple of them....

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds. Such a deed is acceptable only when he that teacheth the Cause is already a firm believer in God, the Supreme Protector, the Gracious, the Almighty. He hath, moreover, ordained that His Cause be taught through the power of men’s utterance, and not through resort to violence. Thus hath His ordinance been sent down from the Kingdom of Him Who is the Most Exalted, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 278

As I wrote to you:
The mistake is not to hold on to one's religion, but not to allow others not to follow their religion.
STRAW MAN. Show me one post where I ever disallowed anyone from following their older religion. Go on, I post day and night on Religious Forums (RF). Find one Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, Christian or Muslim who I ever told to change their religion. We all have free will so that has to be their choice. I rarely ever post to any religious people because all they say is “I am right and you are wrong” in so many words. If religious people ask, I will tell them about the Baha’i Faith but otherwise I prefer posting to atheists. They are much more open-minded and rational.

I will speak for what God has revealed through Baha’u’llah because that is my responsibility. God has ordained that there be one common Faith. One common Faith does not mean a whole lot of different religions, each with very different beliefs.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed, therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 91-92

There can never be “one common Faith” as long as everyone remains in their older religions. This is logic 101 stuff. The primary reason for the lack of growth of the Baha’iFaith is the adherents to the older religions clinging totheir religions, believing they are the Only Way.
You don't get it, do you?
Unity is not possible because the views are like yours, namely that clinging to the old religions stands against the unity.
You don't get it, do you?
Clinging to the older religions does stand against unity because religions cannot be unified unless they unite under one common banner. Did you ever take a course in logic?
Your view of religion is that ONE RELIGION has yet to be created.
In fact, you are making exactly the mistake I have described before.
It is all one eternal religion of God, but it is revealed in various chapters. God has moved on to the next chapter but the bulk of humanity is lagging behind. I doubt that God is happy about this.

The religions of the past do not have the remedy humanity needs in the present day so humanity continues to suffer on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. If the adherents to the older religions became Baha’is there would be enough Baha’is to change the world. As it is now, most Baha’is just coddle people of other religions because they are afraid of hurting their feelings. But if this continues there will never be any more Baha’is in the world.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
The unity of religions IS already realized. All you have to do is to recognize the other people in their religion that they cling to and accept them.
You are living in some kind of fantasy world. Religions are divided from each other because they disagree with each other and it is still causing war and strife all over the world. Believers within the same religions cannot even agree with each other about what their scriptures mean.

I accept people in their religions but accepting people in their religions is not going to unify religions.
 
Oct 2014
1,823
Stockholm
A slight lack of unity in this discussion, I'd say. :)

But it's not surprising. This is what often happens, when a discussion starts on a theme, connected to current political issues. Politicized views of a certain question are allowed to take precedence over an effort to understand it in the light of Bahá'í teachings. That's why I find this discussion so boring.

Best,

from

gnat