Women on the UHJ

Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
This arrogance to claim Christians can be open to "progressive revelation" by converting to the Baha'i faith. I am not available for these conversations.


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ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
Ohh... i didn't say: "converting to the Baha'i faith".

I said: "Nobody must leave his Religion."

The Design was (and is) that everybody could include it in their current religion.

For pure enrichment...



... ... ...

The sun of truth rises in each season from a different point of the horizon.

Today it is here, yesterday it was there, and tomorrow it will appear from another direction.

Why do you keep your eyes eternally fixed on the same point?

Why do you call yourselves Christians, Buddhists, Mohammedans, Bahais?


You must learn to distinguish the sun of truth from whichever point of the horizon it is shining!


People think religion is confined in an edifice, to be worshiped at an altar.

In reality it is an attitude toward divinity which is reflected through life.

This movement eludes organization.


It is the realization of a new spirit.

The foundation of that spirit is the love of God; and its method the love and service of mankind.

Many who have never heard of this revelation teach its laws and spiritual truths.

These people are performing what Bahāʾullāh hath commanded though they never heard of him.

The power of Bahāʾullāh words is compelling - therefore you must know and love them.

... ... ...

(Source: 'Abdu'l-Bahá on Divine Philosophy )
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
I heard you. You want one to formally remain in one's religion but subordinate one's practice and beliefs to the Baha'i faith. Christian revelation, however, is complete and does not need to serve eclectic beliefs.
Again, I recommend you to read the Thessalonians' letter, which among other things tells you how Christians should deal with prophetic discourses. This also applies to the prophetic speeches of Bahá'u'lláh.


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ams

Nov 2019
51
Thailand
Did you mean:
"Every scripture - inspired of God - is profitable for teaching ..." (ASV, 2.Tim 3,16)
Yes... completely agree.

Where i disagree is:
Christian revelation, however, is complete
Because:

The Spirit of Christ

which is the spirit of everlasting Truth

is an Everlasting-Revelation Spirit.

And that why - for example - Abdu'l-Bahá said:
The sun of truth rises in each season from a different point of the horizon.

Today it is here, yesterday it was there, and tomorrow it will appear from another direction.

Why do you keep your eyes eternally fixed on the same point?

Why do you call yourselves Christians, Buddhists, Mohammedans, Bahais?

You must learn to distinguish the sun of truth from whichever point of the horizon it is shining!
Or Jesus:
"You hear the sound of the wind... wherever it whistle"
The spirit
of Christ,
of Truth,
of Unity,
of Peace,
of Love,
of Equality (not "sameness") ...

will Revelate his Light and Truth to mankind

at least so long (and even longer)...

until World-Peace
and global Unity
and Harmony
is manifested.


That why Bahāʾullāh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá... also Jesus... and every single Prophet and Son of God... and Manifestation of God... was sent.

And if this would be not enough... God will send more.

Because God loves each men and women on Earth... unconditional.
 
Last edited:
Jul 2018
101
Tarshish, bound for Nineveh
From a logical point I can understand the question. If a religion explicitly writes the equal rights of men and women on its banners, then arguments can hardly be found why women do not have the same right to be elected to the UHJ.
Jehoschua,

Men and women are equal in our writings, and yet is still the case that women give birth, and that I, being stronger than my wife, do an unequal share of carrying things, and am the one who is the protector and defender of my home.

Being equal does not mean we are the same, it means only that regardless of the differences in our roles, neither is superior to the other. If you and I were working on a project, say, making soup, if one of us were assigned to chop onions and the other tend to the stirring of the pot, we are both equally valued, no task is superior to the other, and yet they are different. So it is in the world, where women are assigned certain tasks and men are assigned certain tasks. It is a logical error to assume that meting out tasks differently to men and women is inequality. It would be absurd, for example, to demand my wife to carry an equal portion and in fact, I usually carry it all, because I cherish her, and she is very much and in every way my equal, but we are not the same.

Cheers
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Hello, Luqman,

I understand this approach. In my own tradition we have a similar approach. On the one hand, man and woman are equal in dignity and rights, on the other hand, Christ has made men, not women, apostles to realize his plan of salvation. Hinduism also believes in the equality of souls, regardless of gender or status, but there are different duties for men and women (dharma). I think the Baha'i faith has a more difficult position on this issue here. For many people, the Baha'i faith is considered the progressive religion that has particularly broken with the patriarchal aspects of the other religions. For outsiders, including non-believers, the restriction of priesthood or gurus to men is an unmodern remnant of patriarchy expressed in Western religions. Therefore they assume that the Baha'i religion also brought a renewal in this point and are then disappointed if the patriarchal style of the previous religions is continued here.

That is my impression.

Have a good evening, Jehoshua.
 
Sep 2010
4,589
Normanton, Far North West Queensland
I see this part of a quote from the Universal House of Justice is useful to this conversation;

".. The House of Justice suggests that, in thinking about this, you contemplate the way the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh has actually worked, and you will be able to see how very different its processes are from those of, say, the development of the law in Rabbinical Judaism or the functioning of the Papacy in Christianity. The practice in the past in these two religions, and also to a great extent in Islam, has been to assume that the Revelation given by the Founder was the final, perfect revelation of God’s Will to mankind, and all subsequent elucidation and legislation has been interpretative in the sense that it aimed at applying this basic Revelation to the new problems and situations that have arisen. The Bahá’í premises are quite different. Although the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is accepted as the Word of God and His Law as the Law of God, it is understood from the outset that Revelation is progressive, and that the Law, although the Will of God for this Age, will undoubtedly be changed by the next Manifestation of God. Secondly, only the written text of the Revelation is regarded as authoritative. There is no Oral Law as in Judaism, no Tradition of the Church as in Christianity, no Hadíth as in Islam. Thirdly, a clear distinction is drawn between interpretation and legislation. Authoritative interpretation is the exclusive prerogative of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the Guardian, while infallible legislation is the function of the Universal House of Justice.

If you study the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and of the Guardian, you will see how tremendously they differ from the interpretations of the Rabbis and the Church. They are not a progressive fossilization of the Revelation, they are for the most part expositions which throw a clear light upon passages which may have been considered obscure, they point up the intimate interrelationship between various teachings, they expound the implications of scriptural allusions, and they educate the Bahá’ís in the tremendous significances of the Words of Bahá’u’lláh. Rather than in any way supplanting the Words of the Manifestation, they lead us back to them time and again.

There is also an important distinction made in the Faith between authoritative interpretation, as described above, and the interpretation which every believer is fully entitled to voice. Believers are free, indeed are encouraged, to study the Writings for themselves and to express their understanding of them. Such personal interpretations can be most illuminating, but all Bahá’ís, including the one expressing the view, however learned he may be, should realize that it is only a personal view and can never be upheld as a standard for others to accept, nor should disputes ever be permitted to arise over differences in such opinions.

The legislation enacted by the Universal House of Justice is different from interpretation. Authoritative interpretation, as uttered by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the Guardian, is a divinely guided statement of what the Word of God means. The divinely inspired legislation of the Universal House of Justice does not attempt to say what the revealed Word means—it states what must be done in cases where the revealed Text or its authoritative interpretation is not explicit. It is, therefore, on quite a different level from the Sacred Text, and the Universal House of Justice is empowered to abrogate or amend its own legislation whenever it judges the conditions make this desirable. Moreover, the attitude to legislation is different in the Bahá’í Faith. The human tendency in past Dispensations has been to want every question answered and to arrive at a binding decision affecting every small detail of belief or practice. The tendency in the Bahá’í Dispensation, from the time of Bahá’u’lláh Himself, has been to clarify the governing principles, to make binding pronouncements on details which are considered essential, but to leave a wide area to the conscience of the individual. The same tendency appears also in administrative matters. The Guardian used to state that the working of National Spiritual Assemblies should be uniform in essentials but that diversity in secondary matters was not only permissible but desirable. For this reason a number of points are not expressed in the National Bahá’í Constitution (the Declaration of Trust and By-Laws of National Assemblies); these are left to each National Spiritual Assembly to decide for itself.

The Covenant is the “axis of the oneness of the world of humanity” because it preserves the unity and integrity of the Faith itself and protects it from being disrupted by individuals who are convinced that only their understanding of the Teachings is the right one—a fate that has overcome all past Revelations. The Covenant is, moreover, embedded in the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh Himself. Thus, as you clearly see, to accept Bahá’u’lláh is to accept His Covenant; to reject His Covenant is to reject Him."

@ams
@Jehoschua

I see Faith is organic and it grows within each of us, our choices are the seeds that we will grow. We ask God for the wisdom to not plant the weeds.

Regards Tony
 
Sep 2010
4,589
Normanton, Far North West Queensland
Hello, Luqman,

I understand this approach. In my own tradition we have a similar approach. On the one hand, man and woman are equal in dignity and rights, on the other hand, Christ has made men, not women, apostles to realize his plan of salvation. Hinduism also believes in the equality of souls, regardless of gender or status, but there are different duties for men and women (dharma). I think the Baha'i faith has a more difficult position on this issue here. For many people, the Baha'i faith is considered the progressive religion that has particularly broken with the patriarchal aspects of the other religions. For outsiders, including non-believers, the restriction of priesthood or gurus to men is an unmodern remnant of patriarchy expressed in Western religions. Therefore they assume that the Baha'i religion also brought a renewal in this point and are then disappointed if the patriarchal style of the previous religions is continued here.

That is my impression.

Have a good evening, Jehoshua.
I see this is the progressive part of Faith as talked about in the quote posted above.

Each faith brings a progression and a fuller understanding of the previous teachings.

Regards Tony
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Thank you for these explanations which make clear what the task of the Universal House of Justice is. That is a clear difference from the Church teaching authority.
 
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Sep 2010
4,589
Normanton, Far North West Queensland
This arrogance to claim Christians can be open to "progressive revelation" by converting to the Baha'i faith. I am not available for these conversations.


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First, I do not see yet that @ams has confirmed he/she is a memeber of the Baha'i community.

Jehoschua a Baha'i will never attempt to convert, as we see only God offers Faith to a heart. For a Baha'i, Faith is about sharing all that is good and a major teaching in the Baha'i Faith is progressive revelation. You are free to see it how you choose and Faith in Christ is a sure guide to our actions and to life.

I am sorry I did not see this post prior to my last post.

Stay well and stay happy. Regards Tony