Women on the UHJ

Aug 2019
73
Berlin
Dear community,

our problem is that we ourselves, as has been said here, lag behind our human capabilities. Today as then. We do not succeed in recognizing the other religions in unity. We are discussing wrong and right. As Bahá'ís, we must not pass off our opinion as authoritative. But are we insightful enough to judge the beliefs of other people authoritatively? With other religions we make the mistake that is forbidden to us in the Bahá'í faith to do. It is sad when we cause bad feelings in other believers through our debates and when we leave the impression that we do not accept his view of truth. Christian revelation is self-contained. It provides information about revelation and information about the end of revelation and the continuing reality within that revelation. We cannot explain to Christians how they should behave or what makes sense. For this is only our personal view of the truth. To want to impose them on others in a binding way is to behave as if we knew the absolute truth. Most discussions about absolute truth are purely academic, speculative. In everyday life, all people behave as if there were an absolute truth. Nor do we run across a busy road and try to see if we would die relatively well. We probably cross the road when we think it is "absolutely right". We do not make our actions a question of relativity. So, Jehoshua, please remember the Bible verse you mentioned and try to transfer it to the discussion. Check which content is consistent with your approach, but don't give too much in the way we humans sometimes convey that content. We are not infallible.

bye,
certitude
 
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Aug 2019
73
Berlin
This arrogance to claim Christians can be open to "progressive revelation" by converting to the Baha'i faith. I am not available for these conversations.
You can surely remember that the scribes accused Jesus of being a heretic or a blasphemer because he did not keep the commandments as prescribed.
But Jesus did not reject the law, but showed men the deeper divine reality behind the law. People learned that God's grace is before justice.
It is interesting that already in Ezra 9,15 God is characterized as someone who lets grace pass before justice.
Baha'u'llah writes, "Your grace is greater than your righteousness" (Prayers and Meditations 81:4)
We cannot exist before God in legalism, because "the law brings the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3,20).
So it is interesting in the sense that it is about going one level deeper. I think that is also what should be hinted at here. It is not a matter of "formally" remaining in one's religion, but of re-reading the meaning of one's own revelation without giving up one's focus. In the letter to the Thessalonians that you mentioned, Christians are recommended to test prophetic discourses and keep the good. Baha'u'llah had no other claim either. People should examine his statements and then decide.
Every Christian accepts the validity of Jesus' message also beyond the time of his life. But already in this acceptance Christians deviate from Jesus who said "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". But the Christians later realized that His message was universal and already deviated from His message. In doing so, they were already at some distance from his message, but at the same time they fulfilled what Jesus said in John 12:44: "He who believes in me does not believe in me, but in him who sent me.
And please don't take this the wrong way. It is not a disrespect for your faith, but that we Bahá'í read the old scriptures with a different interpretation key.
 
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ams

Nov 2019
50
Thailand
This arrogance to claim Christians can be open to "progressive revelation" by converting to the Baha'i faith. I am not available for these conversations.
First, I do not see yet that @ams has confirmed he/she is a memeber of the Baha'i community.
Apart from that... i also didn't say: "Christians can be open to 'progressive revelation' by converting to the Baha'i faith".

I said... (in short) ... that the Baha'i faith is based on divine revelation, just like the Christian faith is...

Both Revelations springs from the same source - God - only at different times, locations and messengers.

Therefore, Christians... and also Muslims... could truly recognize it... and not must see the Baha'i Revelation as a counteract.

But of course, this is difficult - even impossible - to recognize... if one really believes,

that the (quote) --> "fullness of truth has been already realized,".


Which, of course, is the real arrogance... or rather spiritual pride... to think, that God has nothing to Revelate anymore... since 2000... or 1500... years.
 
Nov 2019
45
Hamburg
Well, ams, have you noticed anything fundamental in our debate? While you tore Bible passages out of context and reinterpreted them in your sense, I did not take a passage from Bahá'u'lláh and instrumentalize it. Because I accept your free decision.


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ams

Nov 2019
50
Thailand
Well, ams, have you noticed anything fundamental in our debate?
Yes. That you just not get the point of progressive revelation.

Because of 1000 clerical dogmas.... thinking that having already the... "fullness of truth been realized".

Whoever is thinking this... about his own movement, institution or religion,
is just closing his own mind for any progressive revelation... even if the revelation would come from the spirit of Christ itself.
 
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ams

Nov 2019
50
Thailand
we Bahá'í read the old scriptures with a different interpretation key.
Also in Christianity the interpretation differs. Its not so (sure you know it also) that there is only one interpretation in Christianity.

Also it is not so sure... that there where only men-apostles in the very early Christian movement.
See Junia (New Testament person) - Wikipedia

About 100 years ago... many Christian confessions begane... giving up the old patriarchal mindset...
that women can (allegedly) not be official Priest of Christ.

Even some catholic confessions like the "old catholic church".

With "old"... their meaning is "The original tradition of the catholic church".


Anf of course the protestant church... which - in europe - made about 50% of Christianity.

So this important changes... begane about at the same historical time.... as God gaves new Revelation thought Bahāʾullāh ...
included the role of women and men.

Which surly did not happen randomly.


Because many Christians are of course also attached to the spirit of Christ...

they began accepting this Vision of Christ,

that women could official be equality Priest of Christ... as men could be it.
 
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Aug 2019
73
Berlin
Yes. That you just not get the point of progressive revelation.

Because of 1000 clerical dogmas.... thinking that having already the... "fullness of truth been realized".

Whoever is thinking this... about his own movement, institution or religion,
is just closing his own mind for any progressive revelation... even if the revelation would come from the spirit of Christ itself.
This aggressive attitude toward another believer makes me doubt whether you really are Bahá'i. Let's see how others in Bahá'i see it. Normally, that is not our communication style.

… consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship, to proclaim that which the Speaker on Sinai hath set forth and to observe fairness in all matters.

They that are endued with sincerity and faithfulness should associate with all the peoples and kindreds of the earth with joy and radiance, inasmuch as consorting with people hath promoted and will continue to promote unity and concord, which in turn are conducive to the maintenance of order in the world and to the regeneration of nations. – Tablets of Baha’u’llah, pp. 35-36.
 

ams

Nov 2019
50
Thailand
This aggressive attitude toward another believer makes me doubt whether you really are Bahá'i. Let's see how others in Bahá'i see it. Normally, that is not our communication style.
ok, then let me explain it.
My personal background is.. or rather was... deep connected with the roman catholic church...
i grow up inside there and was fully involved in the whole system. (against my personal will... i never wanted it... but that doesn't count)

This was a pure spiritual prison. There was no way for any kind of spiritual progression.
Not that i ever anyhow believe much of this teachings. Even not as child.

As soon as i could - i escaped from the whole system... a system of 1000 dogmas... (how i called it)

I study other spiritual teachings (inc. the Bahai teachings) and all was , for me, better than that 1000 dogma-system where i grow up.

That why my direct answer to Jehoschua... because behind nearly each sentence... it reminds me on that spiritual prision.

I know that for Baha'is it is forbidden to talk so (directly) with other belivers... for avoiding conflict.

But i learned... that it sometimes necessary... beeing direct and very clear... at least, for me personally.

I'm just over-tired with those 1000 rcc dogmas which in the end is a complete denial of spiritual progression.
 
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Jul 2017
483
Olympia, WA, USA
This aggressive attitude toward another believer makes me doubt whether you really are Bahá'i. Let's see how others in Bahá'i see it. Normally, that is not our communication style.
I do not see that as aggressive, just direct.
I think Baha'is have a right to their own communication styles as long as they are not discourteous.

Moreover, how we communicate depends upon who we are talking to. I finally had to call out a poster who had been ranking on the Baha'i Faith and the Baha'is on another forum. No other Baha'is were going to do it because they think they have to be a doormat but I do not think Abdu'l-Baha let people take advantage of him, as I recall. He also told us how important it is to be honest.

“Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired.” – Abdu’l-Baha, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22.

”Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 321
 
Jul 2017
483
Olympia, WA, USA
I know that for Baha'is it is forbidden to talk so (directly) with other belivers... for avoiding conflict.

But i learned... that it sometimes necessary... beeing direct and very clear... at least, for me personally.

I'm just over-tired with those 1000 rcc dogmas which in the end is a complete denial of spiritual progression.
I do not know where it says in the Writings that we cannot be direct. We can be direct and also polite. It's an art. ;)